Posted - 2006.09.07 23:57:00 - [152]

 

ShadeLiner, because there is nothing wrong with how the autopilot works today. If you not at the keyboard, it SHOULD get you killed if there are hostiles, and you are traveling! Adjusting it to complex mechanics is completely unecessary.


"becouse there must be a chance to fail, or the game is a chicken farm where every one will be the best and same perfect for the task"

Absolute and utter rubbish. There must be a chance to fail, but this element should NOT be in critical, entirely random roles made by the game server. This is PRECISELY what the current ECM system is (rightly) criticised for.

Dying because an SINGLE arbitrary number you cannot control goes against you in the computer is bad. The random elements in guns, etc, work only becuase they are used frequently enough that their behaviour does really approximate a pseudo-random and no single role is usually critical.

If there are chances to die, they should be generated either constantly - warping out the other side of a jump - or *player* created - bubbles and interdictors.



"This bigger means 2.5 weeks for the overall map(+travelling)/"

Um. Even if there were only 2500 systems (and there are more), then spending 5 minutes, 300 seconds, scanning each of them would take 208 hours, just over a none days of working constantly.

However, that's not really relevant. What IS relevant is that you cannot assume that "working constantly". The time to get to another system is going to be, opn average (and even for a frigate) another 30+ seconds. Then there is the entire reupply element many of these ideas have, as well as the ISK element. Even with all thse covered, yes, you're looking at 2 weeks of work (by the time sleep is factored).

Even that is quite irrelevant, however. Because you are not free to travel. Even within Empire, there are pirate camped system and 0.0 is very hostile indeed.

A full project to map Eve would be a mammoth task which took many months, if it was even remotely completeable, and it's the sort of grind which most deters an explorer from bothering with a game in the first place!

You want to cripple Eve, in other words. You want to slash our its heart, to change it a game dominated by GriefPK's sniping, closed off regions of space and the cancer of the hubs massively swolen because the order limits mean people must them them for many items. This is not a good vision.

Posted - 2006.09.08 02:10:00 - [154]

 

It maybe just me, but when I look at the EvE market, it reassures me that normal gameplay is, in fact, a commodity. Name something not for sale in EvE, and I'll show you something that's not supposed to be part of the game.

I'd like to ask, though, what is this "normal gameplay" that doesn't include any form of grinding?

Posted - 2006.09.08 02:23:00 - [156]

 

No, can you say "you didn't manage to come up with an adequate counter-argument so you resort to complaining that I'm being unfair".

It's an accurate reprisentation of what YOUR IDEA, which was what I was criticicing, would do to Eve. It's accurate that droping people into GriefPK's sights (note GriefPK | Griefer) would make sniping even higher reward, block off regions of space and concentrate even more people to the hubs.

And no, this is NOT a good vision for the future of Eve. Your *IDEA* is bad. This is an *accurate* reprisentation of what it would do, and is in no way a personal attack. You just need to do some more research.


"This is the same way capital ships get built, T2 ships get built, and how POS are purchased and maintained"

Again, you're comparing things which provide actual goods and benefits, compared to leeches who provide nothing except normal gameplay. These cannot be compared, at all. Again, you're trying to say that basics like altering your overview settings and fitting ships should be dependent on other people.


"Or perhaps CCP would prefer to restrict a player's library of starmaps to a relatively small area of space"

Dev quote please. Because there is zero proof of this. (And no, this is NOT what Oveur said).

"There are certainly a lot of players out there that are calling for the permanent removal of everything that resembles the functionality of instas because they offer too much "invulnerability"."

There are less than thirty very vocal GriefPK's who are calling for ripping out instas, local, and much of the base communication and intelligence basis of the game, yes. This is not a lot of players, and the majority opinion in all the general discussion threads in the last month was firmly on the "0km warp" or "corperate BM's" side - equivalents, NOT NERFS!

There is no value whatsoever to the the starmaps idea as proposed, it's a boring grind which will suck the fun from the game and create an ISK flow to a bunch of pure leeches who do nothing to enhance the game in any way but simply enable normal gameplay, this being possible only because of their timezone, which per CCP's market changes to elminate their advantage there is considered highly undesirable in Eve!


Aliniel Vitissun, for doing any of those things you get a benefit. Grinding for "starmaps" is the boring part you have to do simply so that you can START doing the things which get you a benefit, they ENABLE normal gameplay, and are not PART of it. (Your behavior changes radically AFTER you've made them).

This is why they are a PURE grind, which is bad.

Posted - 2006.09.08 16:04:00 - [158]

 

Originally by: Maya Rkell

---

No, can you say "you didn't manage to come up with an adequate counter-argument so you resort to complaining that I'm being unfair".

---

my only complaint was that you made false accusations, and implicitly insulted a member on the board through said accusations. This is "ad hominem" which is a rhetorical fallacy, and it is perfectly acceptable for me to counter your arguments by complaining about you using a rhetorical fallacy. Using a rhetorical fallacy rendors the point that you were trying to make when you used it, NULL.

Quote:

---

It's an accurate reprisentation of what YOUR IDEA, which was what I was criticicing, would do to Eve. It's accurate that droping people into GriefPK's sights (note GriefPK | Griefer) would make sniping even higher reward, block off regions of space and concentrate even more people to the hubs.

---

MY idea has nothing to do with dropping people into GriefPK's sights. MY idea is to implement starmaps in such a way that they can exactly replace bookmarks. The ideas about making starmaps updatable are unnecessary baggage which over complicates the basic idea that starmaps represent, as far as I am concerned. My idea is to use starmaps because they use much less memory than bookmarks.

Quote:

---

Again, you're comparing things which provide actual goods and benefits, compared to leeches who provide nothing except normal gameplay. These cannot be compared, at all. Again, you're trying to say that basics like altering your overview settings and fitting ships should be dependent on other people.

---

Here is where we are have conflicting definitions of "normal gameplay". You believe that instas are "normal gameplay". I am but a lowly high-sec mission runner. I do not use instas. I have a total of 10 bookmarks in my possesion. I avoid low-sec like the plague. When I must enter low-sec, I use the ships/pods destroyed in the last 1 hour filter on the map to avoid dangerous systems, or to recognize where I will have to prepare for a gate camp.

Quote:

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Dev quote please. Because there is zero proof of this. (And no, this is NOT what Oveur said).

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Way to take my quote out of context. I was speaking in future tense, referring to POSSIBILITIES. I was NOT saying that CCP wants to limit instas RIGHT NOW. Let me give you the extreme example of what I was suggesting: I was saying that it might perhaps be possible that some time in the future it might possibly be possible that they might have an inkling of a thought that it perhaps might be best to limit instas in some way eventually sometime.

Providing a dev quote would violate causality which would destroy the universe. This would be a Bad Thing(tm).

Quote:

---

There is no value whatsoever to the the starmaps idea as proposed, it's a boring grind which will suck the fun from the game and create an ISK flow to a bunch of pure leeches who do nothing to enhance the game in any way but simply enable normal gameplay, this being possible only because of their timezone, which per CCP's market changes to elminate their advantage there is considered highly undesirable in Eve!

---

No value? Did you not read my computation for how much less memory space starmaps would require over bookmarks!? Starmaps offer a 97% reduction in the amount of space that instas currently require (presuming the worst case implementation of bookmarks where the server stores the name of each bookmark as an array of 100 w_chars) This reduces the size of the bookmark database, which in turn improves the cache hit-ratio, which reduces the amount of time that the CPU must idle while waiting for data retrieval from main memory, which in turn reduces the resources required when copying instas, which in turn reduces server side lag. A smaller database also improves the performance of hash tables and binary search trees.

IMHO, this has INCREDIBLE value.

Posted - 2006.09.08 16:42:00 - [160]

 

Edited by: ShadeLiner on 08/09/2006 17:14:02
Let think,

the ideaowner wants a free ford where can fear from only the direct attacks on the home POS. This wildly open for the ones who read shes replies. Ok this is one think in the discussion. But this unaccepteble. This want all the others who goes for warp O.

Others want a system where is to the starmaps can transfor the ista stuff, what I calling ShadePass. This is can be a good system, I will make a quick SWAT.

+
o reduce the server usage, so will be space to build deathspace elements near gates and bases, in belts and planets around. And this can mean a well worked out world, what is generally needed that game.
o allows gamplay to extern
o dynamic maps, no more absoule dominations on the locals
(This cames from the starsystems elements orbiting in real conditions, I hope the developers thinking on the real simulation too, but this means all can cycling renevue but the center orbiting items faster, and the furthers slower.)

o new professions and roles
(Carthographers and scout gangs can be added in, corporates need to maintain them maps.)

o new possibility to move money from players to players

o new items can be designed to help mapping, extern ship maps, allow them download in space, or simply to map. This can be a probe (what is require a special skill), can be an unique item, and can be based on a two phase method (firstly need to deploy transmitters to the points what you want to aquire, and secundly need to collect the routes between the points... this can be conpense the cheat like you got the whole system map in a single task)

o new skills can be added on

I think there are many skill needed, this following task only ideas.

NAVIGATION:

Use maps (1) 1 system / constellation maps / regional maps / 5 regional maps in the same time / all (25)

Normally distance from the 0 is 25oo m + normal warping working

Warp Drive Calibration (2) every level -325m reduce this

Map Sharing (2) allows you to change maps with players 1 15oo m closer 2 15ooo m closer 3 1.5 AU 4 25 au 5 entire system

Carthography

Cartographer (1) gives you -5% working time when the time come when you collet the systems patterns
requires map usege 3 and allows you to use simplier mapping devices
(if you have cartorgphy 3)
map management (allows your ship to can manage more starsystems on your actual map + 5%)

map pooling device use (2) allows you to use nav poilng computers(new item bigger than 15oom3 but can be hauled on industrials, deployed to a starbase) and allows you to pool more systems in the equipment, you can upload there the refreshed patterns, and allows you a maintrence feature to your starmaps.
(And what will noobs to do? Noobs can use only the starmaps what can holded in them ships. And go for a pooling device to not loose all if they vanished. This will makes only more complex the game, couse a single day you can train the skills what you need to pool the starmaps in a base.)
Better equipment can contains better starmaps, tier I pooling device can hold max 3 regions equal systems (the bests, starter only 5 constellations for 50000 ISK). (around 200-300) and tech II can 5 regions pool max. The problem is can be managed with multiple device useing.
(tier II) mobile pooling device usage allows to deploy on POS the starmap pooling centers, what is can be small on low resoure usage or real heavy 5 region holder, with stronger fitting needs.

starmap girding (3) allows you to build sellable and manageble starmaps form the pooled ones. This means you can create special starmaps, for a constellation defence and for long distance routes some tubes. every level allows you to put +5% systems on a starmap

Posted - 2006.09.08 17:10:00 - [162]

 

basically a starmap contains n systems (fitted to can contains the larges constellation), but a starmap is need to reduce how much systems can contentrate them.

starmap engineer (3) (maybe I was wrong with the cartographer base skill) allows you to make 1 two constellation amount systems in one map, 2 3 constellations, 3 5 constellations, 4 9 constellations 5 whole region

(this part need to worked out if accepted, couse you will count in systems, and not all constellations and regions holds the same constellations with systems, it need to work on the largest, and will fit on the smallers too)

If the ships can holds different amount of starmap or system information, need to think out which one. I prefer system counted version, becouse not easy to balace ships if the skill effect can 10-15*more, if a right mans do. This is only makes simplier to make maps, not extern the capacity of the ship.

Ships capacity need to depend on the size, someones see well. Frigates designed for constellation runs, so normally can contains 3 constellations equal systems, around 6o. It allows to go with bigger trips too. This will the base.

Cruisers can 5 constellations, Battleships 15 constellations vaule, titans can manage 3 regions, freinthers also, industrials 4 constellations. (variants are more or less depends in the ship)

Map pooling devices need to know to can maintatin different maps from the pooled patterns. And this make easy and more complex the game.

o map system can make new ways of playing, but need to be compatible with the bookmark system, bookmarked points must be can uploaded to the pooling devices to, and must be can used to build maps

-

o new features need to be acclimatized

o devs need to work harder on the new system

o bookmarks need to be exepired too

o new players need a bit more things to do for can enjoy the game)

o new skills need to balance the new system

o no warp O in any time, bye-bye almost godlike invulnerable

Posted - 2006.09.09 00:23:00 - [164]

 

I am so glad that Maya doesn't like this idea because

1. i don't have the patience to argue for 6 pages, and
2. nobody listens to me anyways:)

Posted - 2006.09.09 21:57:00 - [166]

 

Taedrin, your problem there is "fallacy". I have said nothing which is not absolutely true, and any issues or insults you might erroniously believe I made because you are again applying faulty assumptions to what I have actually typed...is your problem, not mine.

Your mistakes in this nature render your posts both disjointed and logically invalid.

"My idea is to use starmaps because they use much less memory than bookmarks."

An assumption. And you're arguing with the side which wants degrading BM's, at this point the negative features are not going to get divided from a seperate idea and probably warant another thread.

"You believe that instas are "normal gameplay". "

No, they ARE normal gameplay. They are a core game mechanic of three years standing. This is not something which is up for debate or revision. You chose to take the step of avoiding their use by limiting what you can do, this clearly demonstrates they ARE core functionality!


"I was NOT saying that CCP wants to limit instas RIGHT NOW"

Except they have limited them RIGHT NOW, so it's present tense. That's the problem with that.


"Did you not read my computation for how much less memory space starmaps would require over bookmarks!?"

Pure assumptions. If they're fixed-size and per-character, no real saving. And I have some nice long BM names - also, don't forget that the Eve font is unicode, so the name has to be stored as that.

The idea as being pushed in this thread with degrading, etc, means extra DB lag from constant copying to a degree not seen today.

"cause a delay between when you exit warp, and when you can begin a jump sequence"

i.e. Give snipers ALL the time they need to lock and alpha you. *thud*


Cailais,

Incorrect. "Invulnerable" is not true in ANY sense, since you must exit at the other side of the gate, align and warp off. "Partial protection" is a FAR better term.

"but they do not effectively resolve the question posted a year ago"

No, they don't. Another reason I oppose the idea.

And there is no CHOICE, in lowsec/0.0 you MUST go slow. This still leads to most people abaondoning that space as a lost cause. You can have 0km warps IF you add in new ways to interdict - this DOES fill Oveur's requirements!


ShadeLiner, no offence but you need to get someone to check your english, it's disjointed to the point I can't make any sense of that idea, and must thus disagree.


vinnymcg, except the added negative elements like degrading which make me oppose the very concept. Again, a straight up replacement needs another thread at this point of it wants to be disentangled.


Aliniel Vitissun, THAT is not an issue - CCP have shown the ability in the past to add slots with a server-side fix. So if there were too few, CCP could add more at any downtime.

Posted - 2006.09.09 22:33:00 - [168]

 

NO, there is nothing clear about the fact that you saying I am are making an assumption, when I have repeatedly stated I don't make em.


"There is no doubt that instas are commonly used, but there is no reasoning of any sort that anything commonly used should be made freely available with no input of effort"

Limited thinking. Rather than limit the player and make him drop into the enemy optimal BY DEFAULT, you can give the enemies more options to interdict the player. This DOES fill Oveur's requirement, and that this forum is quiet in terms of player diversity does not mean the threads in GD did not have a LOT of players calling for this, because they did!

Posted - 2006.09.09 23:17:00 - [170]

 

Originally by: Maya Rkell

---

NO, there is nothing clear about the fact that you saying I am are making an assumption, when I have repeatedly stated I don't make em.


"There is no doubt that instas are commonly used, but there is no reasoning of any sort that anything commonly used should be made freely available with no input of effort"

Limited thinking. Rather than limit the player and make him drop into the enemy optimal BY DEFAULT, you can give the enemies more options to interdict the player. This DOES fill Oveur's requirement, and that this forum is quiet in terms of player diversity does not mean the threads in GD did not have a LOT of players calling for this, because they did!

---

There's a difference between what you say, and what you do. And no matter how many times you claim to not make assumptions, the idea that "players automatically deserve to warp to 0km" is, in fact, an assumption. I freely admit that the starmap/starchart is made under the assumption that "players do NOT automatically deserve to warp to 0km"

In addition, you also make the assumption that "players do not deserve the chance to shoot at other players unless they use specific interdiction gear," a clear bias towards the non-PvP population of EvE.

Posted - 2006.09.10 20:05:00 - [172]

 

MAya make the thing easyer, what do you think a skill based, starmap guilded, equipment system supported new warp system...

Posted - 2006.09.14 04:37:00 - [174]

 

*bump*

Posted - 2006.09.15 16:11:00 - [176]

 

Wait, i know:

Let's make the speed at which you can rotate your camera be based on a new module called "Camera Rotator".

How about, you're only allowed to have 10 people in your buddy list unless you train up your "Making Friends" skill. You'll find it under Social.

The whole concept of starmaps is flawed. Instas are basically an exploit of the game mechanics and the game mechanics should be adjusted accordingly if the problem is to be solved. Boxing 0km warp up with new skills, modules, and a potentially endless grind is ridiculous. Starmaps are an abomination.

Not that i even need to continue, but here are some other reasons i don't like "starmaps"

- Starmap decay is lame. There's no good reason to implement it. Adding a new subclass of bottomfeeders isn't an excuse for forcing players to get new starmaps every month.

- Starmap decay at x meters per month is so arbitrary. Celestial satellites do not actually revolve around their "parent"s in this game and because of this you would be implementing some fudged fake physics to estabilsh the rp/immersion connection. This strikes me as a shallow cop-out of coming up with something better.

- Stellar Carography. Yay. Punish the nubs for having dozens of more important skills to train. One nice thing about instas is that anyone can use them.. they're a great equalizer between nubs and vets in that respect.

- New module? Starmap creation countdown? You're basically adding complexity and a timesink for the sake of adding complexity and a timesink. If the creation of starmaps was fun and exciting maybe i could agree. But you've described it as a bore.

- The name "starmap" sounds stupid.

- There are plenty of better ideas out there.

And lastly, just because most of the people who replied to this thread gave positive feedback does not mean that x% of the eve community likes your idea.

Posted - 2006.09.17 03:47:00 - [178]

 

Originally by: Permian

---

The whole concept of starmaps is flawed. Instas are basically an exploit of the game mechanics and the game mechanics should be adjusted accordingly if the problem is to be solved. Boxing 0km warp up with new skills, modules, and a potentially endless grind is ridiculous. Starmaps are an abomination.

---

What you fail to grasp is the main purpose behind using starmaps, which is to replace the current bookmark system with one that exerts less stress on the database and server. It is not attempting to fix "0km warp," rather, it is attempting to fix "0km warp using bookmarks"

Originally by: Permian

---

- Starmap decay is lame. There's no good reason to implement it. Adding a new subclass of bottomfeeders isn't an excuse for forcing players to get new starmaps every month.

- Starmap decay at x meters per month is so arbitrary. Celestial satellites do not actually revolve around their "parent"s in this game and because of this you would be implementing some fudged fake physics to estabilsh the rp/immersion connection. This strikes me as a shallow cop-out of coming up with something better.

---

Decay of accuracy of predicted positions of stellar objects over time is not fake physics. There are innumberable phenomena which can cause perturbation of a given celestial body's motion and future position. For adding to the gameplay, starmap decay means two things:
1) There is a consistent source of income and employment for cartographers, which are "bottomfeeders" for providing a service of convenience in the same sense that manufacturers are "bottomfeeders" for providing a service of convenience.
2) There is a continuing cost for maintaining a set of starmaps, which reduce the incentive for everyone to carry around the full set of starmaps for all of EvE, which would be rather data-heavy.

Originally by: Permian

---

- Stellar Carography. Yay. Punish the nubs for having dozens of more important skills to train. One nice thing about instas is that anyone can use them.. they're a great equalizer between nubs and vets in that respect.

- New module? Starmap creation countdown? You're basically adding complexity and a timesink for the sake of adding complexity and a timesink. If the creation of starmaps was fun and exciting maybe i could agree. But you've described it as a bore.

---

Stellar Cartography is not a "necessary" skill to train. It is only necessary if you want to make your own starmaps, instead of purchasing them. This is in the same sense that learning to farm is not necessary for survival, because someone else who has learned it is willing to do the farming for you, for a price.
I added complexity for balance issues, as it is my opinion that the ability to warp to 0km should not be a given right of everyone in EvE. Removing complexity and time factor would result in everyone able to warp to 0km everywhere, because gaining the ability takes zero time and zero effort.

Originally by: Permian

---

- The name "starmap" sounds stupid.

---

That is an absolutely wonderful reason to dislike an idea.

Originally by: Permian

---

And lastly, just because most of the people who replied to this thread gave positive feedback does not mean that x% of the eve community likes your idea.

---

Granted. This also works both ways in that it does not mean that x% of the eve community dislikes my idea.

Posted - 2006.09.19 02:58:00 - [180]

 

*Bump*