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blankseplocked Story of the EIB scam, or: how the media in EVE mirror real society
 
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Godagast Goudiyah
Amarr
Khanid Merchant Bank
Posted - 2006.08.24 20:48:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Godagast Goudiyah on 24/08/2006 21:07:38
I just read that EVE-NN is now offering an interview to the EIB scammer.

It's funny how the news media in EVE mirrors the news media in the real world, isn't it? It shouldn't be a surprise, since the game is played by real people and therefore models real society to a certain extent, but I still think it is an interesting point to note.

Look at the news in the real world. What are the big stories, who are the big stars we are presented with? Are they actually people of substance, with real achievements, say, in the field of science, or politics, or art, or charity? People who actually contribute something positive to society?

No. The biggest stars on TV are the dudes from "Big Brother", or "American Idol". The biggest stories are usually about the private life of some celebrity - a famous actor or pop singer getting married, or having an affair, or going to rehab for drug possession, or driving his car into a tree while under the influence. That is the stuff that makes the headlines. If you look at it, it's all trivial, unimportant garbage.

So it's no surprise, really, that we have the same phenomenon in the EVE universe. Right now, one of the biggest stories is the EIB scam. The scammer is a celebrity, which is exactly what he wanted. Despite the fact that his only "accomplishment" is to screw a lot of people over. As far as I'm concerned, that is no accomplishment at all. Granted, the scale was big this time, the sheer size of it. But the basic scheme he used was really very simple. It doesn't require a lot of creativity or imagination - only the ruthlessness to do it, and the patience to spend a certain amount of time on making it work.

It's remarkably easy - especially given the anonymity of the internet - to screw people over if that is all you want to do. Most people, myself included, are trusting and give you the benefit of the doubt at first. And that is a good thing, believe it or not, because society couldn't function otherwise - if all of us were paranoid and constantly worrying about everyone else "out to get them", we'd never leave the house. Of course, there is always going to be a minority of do-no-goods who exploit this trust. But theirs is no real accomplishment, except for self-gratification. It doesn't take genius. Just a lack of character.

It's also an interesting parallel to criminals of our real society, how the guy is promoting himself now. Basically, he could have just walked away with the money and be done with it. But scammers being what they are, they can't resist bragging about it. They have to reveal themselves to everyone, to show off their master plan, to demonstrate how great they are and how stupid everyone else is. It is a well-known pattern of behaviour from criminal science. A lot of robbers or serial killers are sending taunting letters to the police or to the media, basically saying: "Here I am. You're not going to catch me. I outsmarted you all." Incidentally, that is often how they finally get caught.

Another parallel to the real world is how these characters always acquire a crowd of impressionable admirers, who mistake their lack of humanity for greatness and believe it's cool to screw people over.

Of course, in this case, the guy is not going to get caught. As he himself points out - rightfully -, he hasn't even broken any official rules. But, by publishing this long, rambling, self-indulgent "confession video" and all the "I win EVE" antics on the forums, he has still embarassed himself quite a bit, for what it's worth. He's thrown away a lot of the mystique he could have had if he had simply walked away. Now he's just proven the old truth that, with all the wealth in the world, you can't buy class.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "I robbed you! You are poor." "Yes. But you, sir, are ugly. Tomorrow, I will be rich again. You are still going to be ugly."

Godagast Goudiyah
Amarr
Khanid Merchant Bank
Posted - 2006.08.24 20:59:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Godagast Goudiyah on 24/08/2006 21:01:23
(On a personal note, so there are no misconceptions about where this post is coming from: I was a customer of the EVE Intergalactic Bank, but ironically, I ended up getting more cash from them than I ever handed over. I desposited a total of 32 million ISK over time - not that much, really, but it was more about dealing with a virtual bank, an idea I found interesting, than about actual profit, anyway.

On the other hand, I once got a loan from them in the order of 120 million ISK, so I guess I come out with 88 million plus at the end of the day. Not too bad, I figure. Obviously, now that the bank has been exposed as a fraud, I'm not paying it back.

I'm sorry if I'm doing the rest of the staff there an injustice. Supposedly, only Cally was in on the scam, and the rest of them were innocent. But hopefully, it is understandable why I'm not inclined to believe anything out of that corporation anymore.

I'm not keeping the extra 88 million either, though. I'd like to think that I'm not on the same level as the scammer(s). So what I'll do is donate it to some of the people who lost money in the whole affair, and who didn't "come out ahead" as I did. Not the alliances who were supposedly involved - they have enough, anyway, and they should have known better. But some of the small guys, like me. Once I can positively identify some and weed out the pretenders.

In any case, the first post here is really not about sour grapes - as I said, the funniest thing is how I actually gained money from the whole affair. And it's a big story, for what it's worth, although as I said, not one with a lot of substance once you look at it. As for my original post, it just contains some personal observations on EVE society, and hopefully you found them somewhat interesting.)

Funky Witherbean
Posted - 2006.08.24 21:36:00 - [3]
 

It's a good refresher course in human nature. The assumptions that people from other forums brought with them to this one was also an interesting thing to watch. Many people wanted to believe that someone courageous and brilliant had taken advantage of greedy stupidity.

Putting your money in a place where you could expect a 6% return is greedy, whereas apparently defrauding people out of large sums of cash isn't.

Doing something antisocial but technically legal on an alt with no risk of repurcussions apparently takes "balls".

A corporation that borrowed and invested ISK and returned a modest interest on the funds was "a business concept that could never work!"

I came to the conclusion that, in general, people wanted the story to be about people dumber than them getting their just rewards for character flaws, courtesy of someone that they could someday aspire to be like. I was reminded of a Chris Rock joke about women that really like gangsta rap misogynist lyrics: "he's not talking about _me_!" When you hear this story, you can either think "there's a cautionary tale", or "that would never happen to me because I am so great". People feel better opting for the latter, but never learn from other peoples' experiences.

I was heartened that most people that actually heard cally's recording seemed to walk away thinking "that's a lot of ISK, but what a loser." I can't blame Cally's strutting- he needs something to counterbalance that feeling he gets whenever he asks himself "Did I do anything worthwhile with my life?".

You can tell a lot about someone by what heroes they choose, and why.

Pepe le'PewPew
Gallente
EVE Reserve Bank
Posted - 2006.08.24 22:16:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Pepe le''PewPew on 24/08/2006 22:16:25
Originally by: Funky Witherbean

blah, blah... intelligent discourse



I have also noticed the tendancy to villify the 'stupid' victims etc. which all appears to be an attempt to rationalize the scamming activity.

On one level, I agree that people should be more discerning and that they should not remove all chances of scamming in the game.

However, I really don't think Rast should be anyone's hero. The real hero would have continued to build and run the uniquely positioned player-run business that apparently was "The EIB".

Even if you don't believe his numbers on the profitability, the sheer scale is somewhat staggering.

If you do believe his numbers on the profitability, then almost half of his 'scam' money was legitmate profits they had made the first few months. The balance could have been generated within a few months more. Thus I find his move somewhat baffling unless he is either not particularly intelligent, lying about the numbers, or just in need of some attention.

Thanks for the thoughtful post Funky...

Pepe


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.24 22:20:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Pepe le'PewPew
lying about the numbers

Most likely Wink

Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.24 22:34:00 - [6]
 

Scamming is weak. Those who were scammed were weak, hopefully temporarily and will be made stronger by this.

Most weak were the defenders of Cally who disparaged everybody who questioned EIB and continue to do so and be weak. All in all not a positive situation at all.

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2006.08.25 12:40:00 - [7]
 

Well, what about the victims? They lost, but since noone likes losing, some seek refuge in abstract morality. make-believe worlds. So people write endless essays about how someone stole hundreds of billions of ISK, but is still a loser deep down inside. Since you cannot win the hell that is reality, moving your base of existance to a plane where you cannot lose is actually a smart move. But not exactly heroic.

The scam was lame and didnt actually add anything to eve. Very similar to "real" evil. No class, but not the end of the world either.

The only thing that is really important though: someone probably has 500b or more, and others dont.
Things like morals might be important once kingdom comes. eta: 2 years after CCP fixes all drone bugs.


Godagast Goudiyah
Amarr
Khanid Merchant Bank
Posted - 2006.08.25 13:57:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Godagast Goudiyah on 25/08/2006 14:00:38
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Well, what about the victims? They lost, but since noone likes losing, some seek refuge in abstract morality. make-believe worlds. So people write endless essays about how someone stole hundreds of billions of ISK, but is still a loser deep down inside. Since you cannot win the hell that is reality, moving your base of existance to a plane where you cannot lose is actually a smart move. But not exactly heroic.


I'm not talking about heroics, just about good manners (or the lack thereof). You seem to think that these things are "abstract", "make-believe worlds". I disagree. These things are very real, in the sense that your standards of behaviour affect you, the others in the world whom you come into contact with, and the way you are perceived. You don't need "another plane of existence" for that. It is quite possible to have a standard of morality, even if you don't derive it from a "God" or another supernatural measure. It is simply a practical question, about how society as a whole functions best.

Of course, you're always going to have people like Cally / Dentara, who, between "I care about society" and "I care about myself" are at the extreme antisocial end of the scale, to the expense of all others. Most of us are somewhere in the middle - we do care about ourselves, of course, but we don't intentionally hurt others, either, because we wouldn't want it happening to ourselves. And we understand that, if everyone did it, society would collapse.

Characters like Cally / Dentara, because they are so self-centered, sometimes become very successful at self-gratification. But at the end of the day, he's still someone who hasn't "matured", and like most adolescents, he's still a prisoner of his own desires.

I hope he can grow up and break out of his self-centeredness someday. He certainly is a smart guy and skilled, so if he ever turns his energy towards something productive, who knows what great things he could do? At the moment, he's only achieved an *illusory* greatness, because he lacks the gifts of character to compliment his skills.

Yes, I know you think this is all abstract stuff. It isn't. It's as real as anything in this world (and I'm talking about "this world", not another, "kingdom come"). True greatness is about more than wealth, and personal success, and showing off. But I guess that is an insight which people reach by themselves at some point in their lives, or they don't.

Funky Witherbean
Posted - 2006.08.25 18:22:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Funky Witherbean on 25/08/2006 18:31:16
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Well, what about the victims? They lost, but since noone likes losing, some seek refuge in abstract morality. make-believe worlds. So people write endless essays about how someone stole hundreds of billions of ISK, but is still a loser deep down inside. Since you cannot win the hell that is reality, moving your base of existance to a plane where you cannot lose is actually a smart move. But not exactly heroic.

The scam was lame and didnt actually add anything to eve. Very similar to "real" evil. No class, but not the end of the world either.

The only thing that is really important though: someone probably has 500b or more, and others dont.
Things like morals might be important once kingdom comes. eta: 2 years after CCP fixes all drone bugs.


Heh, I assume this is directed to Godagest and myself. Godagest made money, I chose to avoid investing in EIB because 1) it was too risky, and 2) the return was too small. Don't assume everyone sympathetic to the people that trusted Cally were the ones that fell victim to him. Why do you want to feel that Godagest and myself are creating some fantasy world to escape the pain of losing to Cally?

Group coordination usually allows people to take advantage of economies of scale. It's the reason that people formed societies rather than just braining each other over the head with rocks. It's not perfect of course, because there are always sociopaths, but the returns on trust still remain nonzero. Trust requires morality, and civilization is built on trust, and civilization is the reality from which we escape into eve. It is the reality we return to when we leave eve. That is reality- that trusting people pays returns on average.

As to morals being useless, maybe they are for you: there are a small number of sociopaths and psychotics in the world. They aren't really optional for me unless I want to bullsh*t myself- I need to be able to look myself in the eye without being ashamed.

If I were to choose a heroic set of IPOs off the top of my head, I'd probably point to the ISS chain, that managed a modest profit, but more importantly, made very valuable contributions to the culture of the eve community. They couldn't have done it without the IPO structure- and it took a lot of planning, research, intelligence, creativity, and dedication to pull off the first one. The ISS outposts are a very good example of why people are inclined to trust- even with lowlifes like Cally out there.

There is one thing I'd add to your point about someone having 500b. It's a shiny story, and has had a lot of attention, but every stock you see on the EGSE has it's own story, and many of them have a very different lesson to teach. Deciding that it is weak to invest in other people on the basis of EIB is like deciding that it's stupid to fly in a plane on the basis of 911.

--
edit: took out a reference to game theory because it was unneeded and innaccurate.

Argenton Sayvers
Posted - 2006.08.25 20:35:00 - [10]
 

1. I wasnt adressing anyone in particular, and i think i dont have academic evidence that the majority of the victims of this particular scam reacted in this way. But i have seen the desiry to "win" despite an objective defeat by holding the "moral higher ground" so often, that i can wager a guess that it plays an important role here.

2. Actual loss pales in comparison to "defeat". You can walk away with a hundred million profit, and still feel "dirty".
I have lost billions because of obvious mistakes (selling to cheap etc), but i wont forget the Cap Power Relay I i bought for 50m.

3. I disagree that trust needs morals. Trust needs "collateral". Trust based on morals is asymmetrical, and while i dont like to be weak and dependant, neither do i want my respected partners to be in a situation of weakness. This is no "strength prevails, weakness perishes" mindset though, it is more based on my opinion that few like to look up to someone who is more powerful. An equal meeting ground reduces hidden conflict and envy, and makes "trust" more valuable. I dont want to force people to "not lie" when they dont "FEEL" deep down inside that its "wrong
Collateral doesnt need to be dollars, or goldbars either.

4. I think all our current societies are so far from all philosophical concepts of morality that it would seem pointless to argue the ratio of sociopaths versus "honest citizens". But one thing: i dont consider people like Rast to be the biggest threat to my wellbeing. He is at best number 3, right behind misguided meddling (crusading) do-gooders and people who are both evil and who "play to win". Those who tell you lies in the face, and when its obvious that it was a lie, they dont rant about how their wicked masterplan almost suceeded. They apologize for their "honest" mistake, all while plotting your demise. Those who can commit every crime they preach against, out in the open, without anyone being able to break the spell. You know, those kinds of people that rule over us right now ... ;)

Funky Witherbean
Posted - 2006.08.25 22:52:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
1. I wasnt adressing anyone in particular...

My mistake then. I agree that people do tend to do that (although I can't think of a post where someone did), just not in the context in which I thought you were responding.

If anything, the victims seemed to rant about Dark Shikari and EMFI because they were blindly following their lead rather than taking responsibility for their own actions.

Originally by: Argenton Sayvers

3. I disagree that trust needs morals...


Fair point. Well said.
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers

4. I think all our current societies are so far from all philosophical concepts of morality that it would seem pointless to argue the ratio of sociopaths versus "honest citizens". But one thing: i dont consider people like Rast to be the biggest threat to my wellbeing. He is at best number 3, right behind misguided meddling (crusading) do-gooders and people who are both evil and who "play to win". Those who tell you lies in the face, and when its obvious that it was a lie, they dont rant about how their wicked masterplan almost suceeded. They apologize for their "honest" mistake, all while plotting your demise. Those who can commit every crime they preach against, out in the open, without anyone being able to break the spell. You know, those kinds of people that rule over us right now ... ;)

Heh, or the people that support/vote for them, with your rl example. Agreed again- although I do think its' possible for a largely ethical people to have an antisocial society. When I say psychotic or sociopath, I don't mean them just as vague aspersions- I mean their actual definitions, and I do think that the amount of population diagnosed with those conditions is statistically rare.

Honestly though, in real life, I do rate people sociopaths as a little bit of a higher personal threat than lying, self-serving politicians- but that's only because my own experience has had the people you describe as a remote threat, while I have had direct dealings with sociopaths.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2006.08.26 23:36:00 - [12]
 

In the end, the EIB scam defrauded everyone, simply by making it that much more difficult for anyone to ever set up an honest banking system in Eve.

That, I think, is a far greater loss than a few B isk here and there.

Of course, catastrophy is ussually the impetus for change, but I suspect it will take a few generations of players before anyone's willing to try a bank again.

Harry Voyager

Eralus
Posted - 2006.08.27 16:07:00 - [13]
 

Heh, can I get a big 'I told you so'? :)

I think one other 'real world mirror' here is that people who invest in a scam tend to be the first people to DEFEND The scam while it's ongoing. They've already invested their money, and they have an emotioal interest in it not being a scam, will ignore evidence that it's a scam, and will wholeheartedly defend the sammers rather than admit the've been duped.

I always find it amusing when person A starts scam, group of people B buy into scam, and then person A can pretty much sit back and let group B do all the work of defending the scam for them!

Plan Neun
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.29 12:35:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Plan Neun on 29/08/2006 12:37:50
Though I would never consider doing such a thing myself, it is amasing that it is possible to pull such a thing off.

The scale of this fraud and the sums involved about 800 billion isk doesnt make the event less spectacular or exeptional.

A pity though for those community players who lost hard earned isk in this scam.


JP Moregain
Gallente
EVE Reserve Bank
Posted - 2006.08.29 13:48:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: JP Moregain on 29/08/2006 16:26:38
Originally by: Harry Voyager
In the end, the EIB scam defrauded everyone, simply by making it that much more difficult for anyone to ever set up an honest banking system in Eve.

That, I think, is a far greater loss than a few B isk here and there.

Of course, catastrophy is ussually the impetus for change, but I suspect it will take a few generations of players before anyone's willing to try a bank again.

Harry Voyager


Yes, over the short/medium term this kind of disaster really does make it much more difficult for anyone trying to set up some thing both legitimate and viable from a 'player run/controlled' viewpoint.

Unfortunately the scammers don't care about that, it's someone elses problem and they get/got their 15 minutes...

I am working (slowly) on a player-controlled bank chartering/regulatory regime since I used to do this in RL anyway. The trick is , of course, making it safer for the players , while still not making it too onerous or risky for the banks themselves. Nothing, of course, can ever be completely foolproof though (and probably shouldn't) but it would be nice to have a little more to work with...

If anyone feels like they know all the ins/outs of the various corporation game mechanics and roles as they currently stand please eve mail me, as I would like a set of ears to bounce ideas off of (and possibly experiment with in a shell corp.) periodically while I work on this. I have spent most of my time in this game as a peon in a smaller specialized PvP/industrial corp, so corporation mechanics have not been a big part of it for me.

We will see if the new 'contracts' engine eventually makes some of the bumps easier to get over, but given the current game mechanics it looks like doing this from a player controlled perspective and meaningfully reducing the risks is a tough nut to crack.

JP




 

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