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Drogos
Caldari
Slacker Industries
The Boat Violencing Initiative
Posted - 2006.08.07 21:46:00 - [331]
 

After reading through a ridiculous number of posts, I've come to the conclusion that the single greatest thing that annoys me about GS is that a large number of their members are attempting to grief the entire world of EvE.

To whit: "It's just an internet spaceship game, why are you getting so upset?" "We play the game how we want. We pay our monthly fee just like everyone else."

After some thought, it seems to be a product of wanting to be of the community, but not a part of the community. They are, effectively, a community within a community, and they define themselves by that alternate, non-EvE identity first and foremost. (By this I mean SA forum membership.)

Padijun Siger
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.07 21:56:00 - [332]
 

You must have your corp and alliance displayed to contribute to this discussion - Cathath

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.08.07 23:07:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Joerd Toastius

/me sighs...


Oh don't sigh baby you know you love it! Very Happy

Quote:
First, it is OT. I realise it's tangentially relevant but this discussion has no direct relevance to the discussion that was going on in the previous ten or so pages


Lets agree to disagree, no point belabouring the point. I think its On topic you think its not, we're not going to agree so why waste bandwidth on this irrelevent point.

Quote:
Second, the difference between rhetoric and fact is that facts are raw data and rhetoric is raw data dressed up in fancy clothes. I'm not saying there that I dispute your facts, I'm saying that saying "pay court and homage to the sitting authority" when what you actually mean is "negotiate positive standings" just makes it harder to dig actual facts out of your statements. I'm expressing a preference for plain English.


Well, negotiating positive standings is what we do Joerd - but we aren't doing it from a position of weakness and if you refuse we end up shooting you and doing exactly what we want to anyways. The problem is that very new or combat-nervous corps and individuals don't often have that option and they need to walk on eggshells and bow and sc**** to avoid anoying the sitting authority figure administrating an NBSI regime. Of course its an example of rhetorical bias either way - I'm obviously trying to paint NBSI landlords as the tyrannical horrors I think they are while you are trying to represent them as perfectly justified and respectable products of the prevailing environment. No point railing against the natural human tendency to put ones own causes in a favourable light.

Quote:
Third, no control is not power. A puppet Emperor has absolute power but no actual control.


Surely a puppet emperor has neither power nor control? The fact the pupeteer could remove the guy at any time is pretty relevent.

Quote:
Moreover, in the context, the point is that degree of control is not proportional to amount of power - all control requires is that people do what you want, it requires no formal acknowledgement or deference, which seems to be what you're most upset about.


I think you are mistaking "control" for "influence" there. And don't get me wrong, I'm not "upset" I just loathe tin-pot dictators in cheap suits.

Quote:
Fourth, I'm not denying that you've been more active in 0.0 in the past, I'm just saying that the current status quo, with POS wars and Sov and the like, tilts the playing field far more in the direction of NBSI politics, and by extension away from the platform you're building your arguments on. Things have moved on and you're out of touch because you're still living in the past.


Well, living in the past is spookily like remaining consistent to one's core beliefs you know Joerd. I'm entirely aware that the frontier is currently dominated by NBSI politics - I know its the easy route, I know its popular with the tin-pot tyrants etc etc. But hey, I've got 48m skillpoints says I'm right and you're wrong and I'll have fun debating this stuff till doomsday. Anyways, whats a sitting authoritarian state without an anarcho-capitalist insurgency movement brewing rebellious thoughs eh?

But you know, seriously, you are rather making my argument for me here. By representing the NBSI territorial control thing as the default state of 0.0 and defacto government of choice for the powers on the frontier you are proving my point that it represents a dreadfully banal and uniform prospect for expansion into 0.0. My central argument throughout this thread has been that the Goons weren't actually doing anything new and missed a big opportunity to actually strike a blow against the sitting old boys network they abhor. But by aping those existing philosophies they are just conforming to the dominant memetics of the frontier and becoming just one more cut-price imperial movement. Revolutionaries need to wear different clothes ...





Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.08.07 23:08:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Fred0
I think Toastius has missed you Jasmine Wink Oh and I think where goonfleet went wrong was nothing too complicated. They just thought they were special. Remedial got abit of hubris and overextended them. Public image backfired. Combine 1-3 and Everyone turned on them. -> Back to square one.


Yeah I get that impression too Fred0. I'm infectious like that Cool


Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.08.07 23:15:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Lady Zirconia
Firstly, well spoken, Miss Jasmine. I believe you made all your points quite well, though I fear that there are no longer any Goons reading this thread to share in your wisdom. At some point, I believe that your "nerdie" points became too much of a headache for them to read. Laughing


Why thank you! But to be honest, I've not been unimpressed by the standard of debate some of the Goons are coming up with. While all alliances have their bad eggs and large ones comparatively more, its clear that some of the SA people are actually pretty well spoken and worth talking too I think. The point I keep trying to push across though is that Eve is a game thats played on many levels and its a waste of the potential of the thing to treat it just like a random "internet spaceship game" and disavow IC politics and the intrigue of public opinion and intrigues and scandals and such. I'd dearly love to see a significant new player in the sphere of player alliances to do something different - its a crying shame to see everyone doing identikit nbsi things and a huge alliance of novices with attitude struck me as having the perfect opportunity to truly fight the prevailing wisdom of eve's 0.0 tyrants for fun and deeper political challenge.

Fingers crossed some good people survive the destruction of Remedial's legacy and go on to do interesting things in Eve.



Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.08.08 00:07:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Heldane
Do not mistake my questions as sympathy for the goons. What was done by members of that organization after the fact was absolutley horrid and they deserved to be punished, but at this point it appears more like BoB is simply flexing its considerable muscle due more likely, in my humble opinion, to a slightly grandiose and inflammatory comment made by Remedial in that profanity laced diatribe called a speech that was released here concerning their war against D2 just days before this incident. If I recall correctly in said speech there was a bold statement concerning large alliances in general but going so far as to actually name BoB and thus aroused their ire.



Yeah, the speech annoyed a bunch of people. Not because it seemed threatening; let's face it, interesting though the Goons antics may have been, they couldn't really be considered a threat; but because of the style and wording used.
The title was pretty offensive .. and it went downhill from there.

Joerd Toastius
Amarr
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.08 00:33:00 - [337]
 

My point WRT rhetoric is simple - these discussions are a lot easier if you don't load every single damn fact with a whole cartful of emotional baggage. It may impress credulous peons but it really doesn't interest me. If you want to go and showboat your philosophies, do it elsewhere and I'll leave you alone. If you actually want a reasoned discussion, I'd appreciate it if you drop the populist act and get down to the nitty gritty. When I say "negotiate positive standings" I mean just that - there's no detectable judgements or loaded words worked into that sentence, at least as far as I can see. Now you can qualify and clarify the context all you like, but that phrase still captures the essence of what's going on without going any further. "Pay court and homage to the sitting authority", on the other hand, is so ludicrously judgemental and loaded as to be almost a parody of a serious position.

Putting aside the fact that, they way you describe it, you yourselves are trying to dictate terms to 0.0 groups ("if you don't give us positive we'll shoot you" sounds like, well, bullying, frankly), your point about not upsetting people is not a feature of an NBSI doctrine, it's a feature of powerful and short-tempered alliances; the two are not necessarily the same thing.

WRT control vs power, I stand by my edit. 0.0 NBSI groups by and large care about territory and resources not people.


Finally, as to your last point, you've missed what I'm saying. If your beliefs about the world do not reflect the current state of the world, how do you justify them? Or are they just blind beliefs which you will stick to until the end of time even if they're manifestly stupid? Yes, NBSI is the default state. Do you know why? It's because POS and Sov make it by far and away the most viable political stance, simple as that. You make a big investment to secure a region of space for yourself, and you then have to protect that investment. That means knowing who's moving around in your space, which in turn is best realised by operating NBSI to give corps an incentive to register their presence, and also to allow you to clear out anyone who's jepordising your investments. But then, how could you be expected to know this stuff? You've got no real experience of the current status quo, have you?



You're a dinosaur Jasmine, you and your entire alliance. Things have moved on and you've failed to move with them. Anyone who's been involved in POS wars can see that your ideas are just moonshine - the only real effect you can hope to have now is to blind fledgeling 0.0 alliances with your rhetoric and get them all killed before they can even establish themselves. Still, at least that keeps 0.0 a little less crowded for the rest of us...

DigitalCommunist
Gallente
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.08 01:41:00 - [338]
 

This forum thread deserves my applause. I haven't read so much of a corporations forum thread so thoroughly in what seems like an eternity - and its a great reminder that I still care about EVE.

To answer the question "where did the Goons go wrong?" by itself is impossible. Go wrong at what? To people like Jasmine/JF, they failed to bring a new angle of thinking to what they deem as an old and jaded community. They are upset the opportunity to do something entirely new was squandered. Instead they fell into the same habits that I see a thousand other corporations making. I'm sure some Goons will disagree, but the simple fact that you are new to EVE and everything is new to YOU does not mean we haven't seen it all before.

Your tactics, your leadership, your structure, your loyalty, your approach. None of it is unique, despite believing the contrary, and I think if there was ever an expert on radical thought it would be Jasmine.

So the first failure of expectation is innovation. I say expectation, because that is what some people wanted to see. It doesn't mean that GoonSwarm was trying to innovate in the first place or that they should innovate, because after all, the standard and established norms which JF find stagnant are generally the ones that have mass appeal. They simply wanted to provide a stable and friendly environment for newbies to flourish in, and you can't do that with wild ideas which are harder to grasp than the game itself - unless your leader is more charismatic than Jesus and has the intellect of Einstein and the cunning of Sun Tzu. To see 2000+ people running around with radical political viewpoints and unorthodox (non-metagaming) strategies would be quite the sight. In fact, I'd real money to see that just because it would turn EVE on its freaking head. And I'm sure that making public my own personal dissapointment, and having my ideaologies associated with JF will cause me violent fits of vomiting for many nights to come. Sorry Jasmine :)

The second reason why people's expectations were let down with GoonSwarm was their inability to capitalize on the tiny foothold they were given into 0.0 politics/warfare (through sheer luck, might I add) in any sort of long term capacity. They sorta had it, and then they didn't. For this, I squarely blame the current leadership - Remedial. He may have the ability to stir up the hive, but you can't expect to have any long term success without the planning, logistics and sheer political cunning to go along with it. The internal drama which was posted on E-O boards between Remedial and his directors perfectly exemplifies his inability to accept that HE ALONE IS NOT GOONSWARM. He may have created it, he may have the powers to destroy it. All corporations go through creation and destruction (eventually) and what matters is what you do in between. Remedial simply doesn't have the patience/stamina for it. The cold hard truth is that he likely created GoonFleet as his own personal shortcut to the success/fame he's been unable to grasp in the last three years on his own.

DigitalCommunist
Gallente
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.08 01:41:00 - [339]
 

So did GoonSwarm prove the point that even low skilled characters can wrestle with serious alliances in 0.0? If they wish to believe they did, simply by contesting XZH for two weeks, fine. But I don't believe they did. To prove a point they would have to been able to not only contest but hold that space. To prove that newbie ambition is more powerful than all the isk reserves of D2. To show that skillpoints and dreadnaughts don't matter when you have organization.

In the end they lost the space. They didn't have the proper attitude going in, because a lot of it was "its okay if we lose it, we're still new!". If you go into any war with the option of defeat being "acceptable" by a large majority of your membership, that is the only outcome you'll recieve when there is any pressure put upon you. A mistake you are making now with the BoB war. And initially you had the right idea of hiring mercs to do the dreadnaught work, because really.. thats the only recourse you have when you can't fly a dread. But in the end you simply hold onto that concept.

So what are we at now? Lack of innovation, and lack of organization. You've dissapointed quite a lot of people right there, but they were unfair expectations to begin with. It would be nice to see an entity come in and blitz the entire cluster in their first couple months, but the sad reality is that you can't do that. EVE has a steep as hell learning curve and the only way you'll be anything more than "NewbFleet" is with time. We all did it, so will you. But I think the even sadder reality is that many people (especially new ones) will misunderstand this and see it as "I can't compete unless I have skillpoints and isk" which is entirely untrue. My largest pet peeve about this community is the overestablished relevance of skillpoints and isk - and I was hoping a non-EVE based community would come in to clearly and definitively prove otherwise.

Of course, to blame GoonSwarm of these two "failures" would be pretty silly. 99% of EVE's corporations can be blamed of being newbs when they were newbs, and lacking innovation. No, thats not a worthy topic of discussion.

The real question should be "what have the Goons done to deserve being held back / hated / oppressed / insertsomething ?"

And boy, am I going to love answering this question.

I will say now that any Goon who seriously believes it was done to curb them from being a future threat is simply put: a moron. There IS a certain expectation from BoB when it comes to how other entities treat us. It doesn't require asskissing, or fear, or even general basic compliance to anything we say or do ingame. I'd be lying if I said those weren't nice when they do happen. But I'd also be lying if I said that is exactly what we/I want. No, I want people to think they can beat me. I want them to try, hard. I want them to go to great lengths at showing EVE just exactly how much "BoB sucks". Why? Because its fun fighting people who try. I'm not saying anybody who doesn't try to Jihad us is bending/rolling over, they could simply have similar political and strategic viewpoints (FIX is a good example).

Getting that out of the way lets me focus on the core problem. We all know the reprocussions of them. GoonSwarm in its current state will never be allowed to exist in EVE, ever. If you take that as the threat of BoB hounding you ingame for all eternity, good. If I said this extends to the entire EVE community and end up sounding arrogant in your eyes, thats fine too. I do not represent the "EVE community", but BoB is part of it, and I know the people who I personally associate with and the community which we as a group associate with - and it we would simply not be a part of this mythological "EVE community" if it blindly accepted the cancerous filth that resides within GoonSwarm.

DigitalCommunist
Gallente
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.08 01:42:00 - [340]
 

If you've read this far and feel insulted at my last statement, don't. You're probably not part of it. I tread lightly for this next part, because I know blanket statements are stupid. But the public perception of the SomethingAwful community (from an outside perspective) is basically this:

Its a community that I believe started with an honestly witty and comedic premise, then mutated into something totally different. When you get such a large community based around "comedy", people will naturally get a bit competitive and try to become the funniest one of them all. They then start believing 'any response is a good response' and slowly the truly hilarious stuff got buried under mountains of what I deem trolling. There are hundreds maybe thousands of people in SA who believe comedy lies in insulting or "poking fun at" anything and everything. This gets a response, which may not always be positive. In defense people start saying "its only the Internet man, dont be so serious", which slowly begins to mutate into "nothing should ever be taken seriously on the Internet, because its not real".

This one phrase is the catalyst for everything that is wrong with the SA community, and the Internet at large. Its used as a carte blanche to act like a ****** towards other individuals across the Internet. This has continued for long enough to become the prevailing image of SA, which has then resulted in further multiplication of members like that. Now they have majority rule. To feel insulted by "internet jokes" is against the status quo, and the very borders of the SA community itself. Anyone who steps outside of it will be ridiculed into submission of one form or another. Going against it at this point is pretty much impossible. There are no reprocussions of behaving this way because the community pretty much encourages it, and being a jackass doesn't break any known Internet law.. so within the safety net of privately hosted forums, and carte blanche statements, something awful truly exists.

Even if lowtax wanted to change the community, which I don't think he would given his fame and phat $, the only way to do it would be by destroying it and removing the communal meeting place of Internet delinquency.

Whoa there Digi, thems some mighty fine rhetorics! But what does this gots ta do with EVE?????

To put it bluntly, if people wanted to pay real money to be unfunny internet clowns towards each other, they'd be giving it to lowtax and not CCP. People come to EVE because they want to play an internet space game, not troll some forums. Ok?

The LARGE majority of GoonSwarm has done this quite well. To argue this would be silly. The EVE community is tight, and thus passionate about making this the best MMO in existance. Some have been around for nearly five years, which is about four years of when it wasn't even a thoroughly "playable" game. We aren't attacking you because we despite newbies, or your internet spaceships might kill our internet spaceships in the far future. The tasteless remarks made about Smoske's tragic death was done by a small group of people within your ranks who are still playing the game as a forum, and not any forum, but your SA forum. They did it to get a reaction and achieved quite well in doing so, as a result they thought they were being the funniest cretins alive.

DigitalCommunist
Gallente
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.08 01:42:00 - [341]
 

Where things went really wrong..

..was when the rest of the Goons defended these people out of some misguided attempt to preserve freedom of speech, and to a larger extent.. out of sheer habit and fear of prosecution (defining borders of your community = dont take it seriously man! its just a game!).

That is the exact moment in time where you failed; failed to respect our community, failed to realize there may be consequences for doing so, failed to police yourselves.

So now what?

Now you're being prosecuted for the actions of a very few people, who unfortunately for GoonSwarm, have a commanding position within the corporation. For it to end, you'll have to learn this isn't SA Clone #2657 the hard way. We will keep teaching you the meaning of consequence for as long as you give us a reason. And you will learn, my God you will learn - either by disassociating yourselves from the trash that started this (which you've begun already) or finding your own path in EVE outside of GS.

You can think of BoB as parents, scolding children for unruly behaviour. You can think of the community as Borg, forcing assimilation upon you under penalty of death. Pick and choose they are free metaphors, I really don't care. But what you're fighting against is nothing short of omnipotence itself. Only a cause delivered by the Divine can motivate the most bored and jaded vets of EVE to camp your stupid shuttles 24/7.

And thats what this war is, a Holy War. We put a Jihad on you, and you'll find that even the thickest roleplay variations of this war (which I may be spewing now actually!) are quite hurty. You're going to go through days, weeks, and most likely months of ingame pressure and constraint. Until one day, you finally realize its not a place to pew pew and irritate the crap out of everyone who doesn't suckle on lowtax's teats and condemn anyone who even thinks of pulling another stupidly unfunny stunt. Then, and only then will the cancer be gone.

/runs off to buy a stock of Uranium and Plutonium charges :D

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.08.08 01:46:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 08/08/2006 01:50:51

Quote:
... these discussions are a lot easier if you don't load every single damn fact with a whole cartful of emotional baggage. It may impress credulous peons but it really doesn't interest me.


The hilarious thing to me is the degree to which you load your own rhetoric with your own brand of populist authoritarian material and present it as cut and dried "fact" Joerd. Thats probably why I enjoy debating with you so much, its like a performance of surreal stand up comedy at times. I do sometimes wonder if you realise the degree to which you do this, but its an idle fascination and I don't expect you to answer that :)

Quote:
When I say "negotiate positive standings" I mean just that - there's no detectable judgements or loaded words worked into that sentence, at least as far as I can see.


Say what you will Joerd, a small novice corp doesn't so much "negotiate" as "beg" for access from an NBSI tyrant organisation. Whats it offering? Service and adoption of standings lists, some war-participation? Respect for the authority of the master entity (thats a big one). Lets face it what really annoys RAZOR about JF most of all is the fact we don't respect your right to make the rules. At its heart thats the dispute plain and simple.

Quote:
Putting aside the fact that, they way you describe it, you yourselves are trying to dictate terms to 0.0 groups ("if you don't give us positive we'll shoot you"


Technically its "if you shoot us we'll shoot you back" and its only a problem with NBSI entities that require a +standing set to keep from shooting us. (we of course don't shoot neutrals and don't require people to "register" with us to avoid being victims to our ships)

Quote:
If your beliefs about the world do not reflect the current state of the world, how do you justify them?


How does a political dissident justify a belief that an extremist regime is wrong? He's in the minority but believes his cause is just. The majority viewpoint is not automatically correct. Individualism has merit all of its own.

Quote:
Yes, NBSI is the default state. Do you know why? It's because POS and Sov make it by far and away the most viable political stance, simple as that.


I'd actually say its a combination of the clunky interface with the 300 standings limit and the influence of Band of Brothers post GNW whose idealogy others seek to emulate as a route to perceived success. (Combined with a little laziness of course)

Quote:
... you then have to protect that investment. That means knowing who's moving around in your space, which in turn is best realised by operating NBSI to give corps an incentive to register their presence ...


So gangsterism and generally bullying of neutrals then. Conform or be shot at? Its just a land enclosure attempt at the end of the day and effort to restrict the freedoms of individuals.

Quote:
But then, how could you be expected to know this stuff? You've got no real experience of the current status quo, have you?


Heh, I was having these discussions when you were in flight school Joerd. Down with the status quo!

Quote:
You're a dinosaur Jasmine, you and your entire alliance. Things have moved on and you've failed to move with them.


I'd prefer to call myself a constant revolutionary who has never sold out to the NBSI compromise Joerd. If your nation suddenly turns into a right-wing dictatorship there is no honour and glory gained by running with the pack.

Quote:
Anyone who's been involved in POS wars can see that your ideas are just moonshine


And everyone really loves POS wars.

Quote:
- the only real effect you can hope to have now is to blind fledgeling 0.0 alliances with your rhetoric and get them all killed before they can even establish themselves.


Allow me to paraphrase "V" for you ... "Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Toastius, and ideas are bulletproof."


Padijun Siger
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.08 01:58:00 - [343]
 

You must have your corp and alliance displayed to contribute to this discussion - Cathath

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:04:00 - [344]
 

Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 08/08/2006 02:04:58
Originally by: Padijun Siger
12,000 character essays on how you think goonswarm has failed are the easiest way to keep them playing/laughing at you


Not sure thats true actually. Like I said earlier I don't think everyone in Goonswarm fits the ridiculing SA archetype so tightly and people like yourself who generalise responses on behalf of thousands of other people are probably quite far from the truth. I suspect the people who are most likely to appreciate what Eve offers in the long term will find these "essays" quite interesting really.

(epic post DC btw, nice to see someone even more verbose than me!)

dasdsadsadsacyx
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:13:00 - [345]
 

You must have your corp and alliance displayed to contribute to this discussion - Cathath

Padijun Siger
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:15:00 - [346]
 

You must have your corp and alliance displayed to contribute to this discussion - Cathath

DigitalCommunist
Gallente
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:17:00 - [347]
 

I'd be lying if I said hitting Reply didn't make me tight in the pants, Jasmine.

But the above person who I shall politely refer to as a "witless cretin" is a perfect example of what I meant. You can't win the forums, and if you tried, I'm sure it would involve a lot more effort than one alt threatening me with "Goons will laugh at you!".

Like, duuuuuude? They already laugh at me.

But you know what would make me feel really bad is if all 12000 of those words turned out to be COMPLETELY WRONG. I feel relieved there is no threat of that happening now ^^

Padijun Siger
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:20:00 - [348]
 

You must have your corp and alliance displayed to contribute to this discussion - Cathath

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:24:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Padijun Siger
well I think it's blatantly obvious that I don't speak for 100% of the population of an alliance I'm no longer part of, but I know the goonfleet mentality far better than the "deep thinkers" in this thread trust me, they're laughing at you hard


Hmmm, but worrying about people laughing at you is a bit pointless really. I mean, the threat of peer humiliation and social ostracism for slipping beneath the standards of the cool clique kinda passed me by in secondary school. Fundimentally if Goons want to laugh fair enough really, its no skin off my nose but I'm sure some of them aren't quite as vapid as you seem to believe.

Padijun Siger
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:26:00 - [350]
 

You must have your corp and alliance displayed to contribute to this discussion - Cathath

DigitalCommunist
Gallente
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:28:00 - [351]
 

lol

Should you tell him, or should I?

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:34:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
lol Should you tell him, or should I?


The bit about responding to what someone says rather than what they said they say? Very Happy Heh, I think the fact the fellahs telling us what the goons think is close enough to the source to be honest.

Uuve Savisaalo
Gallente
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:45:00 - [353]
 

eve aside, i think that was a very good summary of somethingawful's problem. i doubt words will go very far here, but await with bated breath this holy war's results.

Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:48:00 - [354]
 

This thread gets my vote for Awful Link of the Day. I've seen shorter analyses of the politics Middle East.

I mean, I know you guys hate it when people point out that this is a "pretend space game," but ... isn't it?

Padijun Siger
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.08 02:52:00 - [355]
 

You must have your corp and alliance displayed to contribute to this discussion - Cathath

CitzNo 097864
Caldari
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.08 03:13:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
But what you're fighting against is nothing short of omnipotence itself.


IT'S HUUUUUUUUUUGE!

Ben Derindar
Caldari
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2006.08.08 04:07:00 - [357]
 

Been following this thread for some time, all the while wishing I had the literary skills to match those already demonstrated by others here. Embarassed

Originally by: Seleene
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
I genuinely think the only "new" thing Goonfleet has brought to the table is institutionalised ridicule of Eve's setting and background coupled with childish finger-pointing at the enjoyment other people get from the deep political setting.

And thats not a good thing.

One of the best summations for the whole mess I've seen.

Thirded.

Through their actions Goonswarm managed to anger not just the characters we represent, but the very people behind those characters.

The level of offense taken by many at what happened can be seen in a number of ways, one of which I note is the fact that killmails are actually being shared between alliances that, under most conceivable in-game circumstances, would otherwise be shooting each other.

It's already been said that no war of this kind has been fought in Eve before, and I agree completely with that. A certain moral line - its very existence only the Goons were seemingly oblivious to - was not only crossed, but actually danced on.

The lesson I would hope that all Goons take from this entire saga is that, regardless of setting, real or virtual: actions have consequences.

/Ben

Ben Derindar
Caldari
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2006.08.08 04:16:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
I mean, I know you guys hate it when people point out that this is a "pretend space game," but ... isn't it?

It wasn't a pretend space pilot who was subjected to Goon mockery.

/Ben

Padijun Siger
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.08 04:19:00 - [359]
 

You must have your corp and alliance displayed to contribute to this discussion - Cathath

Heintron
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.08 04:37:00 - [360]
 

Correct me if I´m wrong but doesn´t the people from the sa forums usually mass register to mmo´s just for griefing? Like second life for instance? I read something about some guy from sa crashing all the second life servers last fall. In my mind this is really simple. They are from the sa forums, they are immediatelly miscredited and should be chased out of the game by all means necesarry.
Game developers should really have a IP-blacklist for people like these. Just like sport event organisers have for fotball hooligans so they can´t enter/leave the country/arena to "grief" sporting events.
My personal opinion anyway.


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