Posted - 2006.03.15 05:07:00 - [32]

 

Listen to Deileon, even if he sometimes lacks tact.

He's dead on. I'd know.

Posted - 2006.03.15 06:16:00 - [34]

 

Originally by: Deileon

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Tripoli, want to lay odds when the next Adv.5 thread will pop up that completely ignores my results (and yours) for the umpteenth time?

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I only take bets on things I know I'll win.

Posted - 2006.03.15 06:34:00 - [36]

 

Edited by: Tripoli on 15/03/2006 06:34:44
It's a fact that based on an average set of attributes, if you train all 5 advanced learning skills from level 4 to level 5, it will take you 1,330 days 11 hours 3 minutes and 38 seconds (regardless of if you have implants) for that training to become worthwhile assuming you train skills using an even distrubution of attributes.

Am I telling you to train these? No, certaily not. I did, and I do not regret it. I first did these calculations back when the skills first released. Back then people mocked those of us who trained them, saying things like "EVE won't even be around in 3 years," yet it's already been more than half that and not only is EVE still here, it's the biggest it's ever been and still growing fast.

EVE will still be around when my training pays off. Then what will the people who didn't train them say?

Posted - 2006.03.15 09:28:00 - [38]

 

The main difference between my method and others is that since we all agree that you get an extra 1584 SP's a day, I calculate is as reality which is only 1056 SP per day for primary attribute and 528sp for secondary attribute.

I will work out the details about training all skills for lvl4 ->5 and post later. This is not as simple as it looks since the pirmary and secondary skills effect each other baised on the order of training.

Posted - 2006.03.15 10:35:00 - [40]

 

Let's look at the usefulness of training advanced charisma to level V.

Here's the list of leadership skills, and I'm not listing corporation management, social or trade skills for a few reasons:

•they are of no, or very little, use to a combat (that is, pvp) character
•there are very few skills in those categories that have high level prerequisites in the same category, resulting in the best gain by training them to level 4 at most, which is somewhat insignificant in this review for long run usefulness
•corporation management skills are often trained by alts, and extensive skills are neccessary only to alliance founders which you can count with a few stolen fingers

Name (rank)

Leadership (1)
Armored Warfare (2)
Skirmish Warfare (2)
Information Warfare (2)
Siege Warfare (2)
Mining Foreman (2)
Armored Warfare Specialist (5)
Skirmish Warfare Specialist (5)
Information Warfare Specialist (5)
Siege Warfare Specialist (5)
Mining Director (5)
Squadron Command (6)

Total ranks 42 * 256,000 SP = 10.752 M SP

Let's first observe a normal, sane person with starting charisma 3:

He's a good boy and trains adv 4, and has a +3 implant, resulting in a charisma of (3 + 5 + 4 + 3) * 1.1 = 16.5

Let's say he has willpower 20. It doesn't really matter. Training all leadership skills to level V (which would be silly, I know, but let's assume so anyway) and assuming CCP got them right and they all have charisma as primary and willpower as secondary it will take him
10752000 / (16.5 + 20/2) / 60 / 24 = 281.76 days

Had he trained adv 5, his charisma would be 17.6 and it would take him 270.53 days.

It's impossible to break even with the current skills even under such silly circumstances, and it's a bit depressing.

For fun let's observe the difference starting attributes make. I started out with charisma 12, so with adv 4 and a +3 implant my attribute is 26.4. And willpower 20 aswell.

It will take me 205.13 days to train all that. Wee I have saved 65.4 days. But wait, I'm out of useful charisma skills so I guess I will have to go back to perception oriented ones, and I happened to start with 3. And that's the mirror attributes of the other guy, and guess what, he's already caught up many times over.

So, kids, two lessons:

1. Do your homework before school
2. Being charismatic won't get you far
3. Especially when it comes to counting to two

[/rant]

Posted - 2006.03.15 11:25:00 - [42]

 

my maths is terrible will some1 just tell me if it is worth it going from adv lvl 4 to 5

Posted - 2006.03.15 11:39:00 - [44]

 

Edited by: Lord WarATron on 15/03/2006 11:40:00

Originally by: Deileon

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Ahh but here is the twist, I calculated as per attribute. Which means that if I am training perception, the break even from that perception means that I need to train 2/3 of the 1584 figure. Which is 1056 SP a day, which is 598 days. So if you train primary attribute skills, your breakeven is not 400 days, it is closer to 600.

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Truly baffling what you are trying to explain here. I hope it is not just a case of pride. :D Reread my post maybe, or just come to the realization on your own. Maybe Tripoli can explain it more clearly... but you are really veering off the map on this one. Up to there you were good though.

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What I am saying is this.

Joe Blogs trains Advanced Perception to adv.lvl5

After his training is done, he gains extra SP per day baised on the following.

Primary Attribute of Perception -> Extra 1056 SP per day
Secondary Attribute of Perception -> Extra 528 SP per day
No perception in skill he is training -> Extra 0 SP per day.

Ok, Now joe blogs has train up adv lvl5, to cover the training time, he needs to train Primary Perception skils of 1056 SP x 598 days to cover the SP cost of Adv lvl5. Or He can train 1197 Days at 528SP for covering skills which Perception as Secondary to cover his Adv lvl5 cost.

What I am doing differently is that I am calculating SP as Primary and secondary. There is no skill that has perception as primary and secondary, so it is impossible to gain the full benifit of 1584SP a day.

Posted - 2006.03.15 12:38:00 - [46]

 

Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 15/03/2006 12:17:06
“•they are of no, or very little, use to a combat (that is, pvp) character”
You missed some of the PvP Charisma based skills like command ships, which I believe is another Charisma skill. Then there are the others skills like clone jumping which I believe most Pvpers also have/use. Don’t most Pvpers also have a handful of social skills to effect standings and some basic trade skills so they can sell more items?

I am at work so please double check both command ships and Infomorph Psychology use Charsima. But if they do you should add it into your math.

What if you look at it from a PvE point of view they will have most of the social skills as well to improve agents. Not everyone does PvP. That and Wing Command will be out sooner or later. There are bound to be more Charmis skills added.

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I'm at work, too, unfortunately, so I can't check those right now. I'm rather sure that Infomorph does use charisma, though without checking and believe that Command Ships is wil/per.

As for the general usefulness of social and trading skills, I refer to my second reason:

Quote:

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•there are very few skills in those categories that have high level prerequisites in the same category, resulting in the best gain by training them to level 4 at most, which is somewhat insignificant in this review for long run usefulness

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By this I mean that even if you find the skills useful, there is little reason to train them beyond level 4, meaning that even training all of them to 4 will only equal a few ranks, the problem simply being the lack of specialized skills.

I don't know what most pvpers have, but personally I don't have a single trade or social skill beyond the starting set, and I've never needed any. If I did, and those who do, the above short training requirements apply. Many also use alts for these kind of things. Also for PVE. Some might train the more important social skills to V, but not likely.

Wing Command is a step in the right direction, when it will be released. I hope they further that path of specialization and create more possibilities and motivation for training these skills up. It is, of course, by itself not enough and will not make the neccessary difference to reaching the breakeven for adv5.

In conclusion, charisma as an attribute is quite unbalanced - other attributes have years and years worth of training with different options and paths for specialization.

I would also like to add that I am disappointed in the "leadership specialists'" command ship requirements which are a whopping 2 weeks of charisma-based training and around 3 months with other attributes.

Posted - 2006.03.15 18:52:00 - [48]

 

Edited by: Deileon on 15/03/2006 18:52:42

Originally by: olan2005

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my maths is terrible will some1 just tell me if it is worth it going from adv lvl 4 to 5

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There's no easy answer to this. How long do you think you will play the game? If you are pretty sure you will play more than 2 more years, then you will probably benefit from training 1 or 2 Advanced 5's. I recommend Clarity and Focus if you do combat, Per/Wil dominates in the long term. Those are the only 2 I have done or plan to do. An Int/Mem based char would train int+mem instead. If you are pretty sure you will play more than 4 or 5 more years, then you will probably benefit from training all but charisma to 5. As for Presence 5, that's hard to justify for anyone...

Why are my times above longer than the breakevens? Once again because the breakeven period is the time you have been set back. You need to keep playing after that to really GAIN anything.

Posted - 2006.03.16 22:57:00 - [50]

 

wow this is sad... I have a similar story:

the other day a corp mate and I had an argument about ore values. more specifically, it was about the question whether platioclase is worth more than regular veldspar. I spent a lot of time working on a spreadsheet with ore yields and values so you can enter the stuff mined in a mining op and insta see the mineral yield and value with current market prices.

anyway, someone asked if plagioclase was good stuff. I said no, plag is complete cr**, regular veldspar is more valuable than that. then mr super smart corp mate #2 came and said i was lying (really said that) because 100k units plag are more valuable than 100k units of veldspar. i mentioned that you mine m3 and not units of ore. he said but why do i see units of ore pop in my cargohold. he just didnt get the real idea behind a concept. sure 100k units of plag is worth more, but a unit of plag is larger than veld so you need to scale it to m3 which is in fact a measure of time spent on mining and base your calcs on that. then he said we both are correct, his point of view (100k units) was just as correct as mine (m3). in this case there are no two correct points of views because the concept is as it is and not flexible to interpretation...

that is a bit OT, but came into my mind when reading about pottsey's 90 days break-even. the concept of this is: you invest 100 bucks which makes you 100 bucks poorer. the return on your investment is 0.5 bucks per day. so it takes 200 days until you got all your 100 bucks back and start to make a profit. thats break-even. now replace bucks with skillpoints. there is no other interpretation of break-even, i'm sorry.

Posted - 2006.03.17 09:13:00 - [52]

 

Yep, my Maths is wrong. I did 2/3 of skill points twice.

Anyhow, if training Primary skills it is approx 400 days to break even.
If training secondary skills it is approx 800 days to break even.

Or someware inbetween if you do both.

Posted - 2006.03.17 11:29:00 - [54]

 

Originally by: Pottsey

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What if the first 100bucks was pretty much worthless Ie if its skill points the only thing I can train are useless skills, which are low value to me. Then I spend the next 50bucks on a new really good skill that has a large befit to me. In that case the next 50bucks of skillpoints has a lot more value then the first 100bucks of skillpoints. Not the best example but hopefully you get what I mean.

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I don't really get you, but it sounds like you are arguing for other benefits of having adv5 than simply efficiency in total useful SP, and the OP did not deny that, but it's not what this is about. Having adv5 might indeed be useful with such applications, like training that good new skill faster but the topic of discussion was simply how long will adv5 take to pay itself back in purely skillpoints in other skills than itself. You following me?