| Author |
Topic |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:14:00 - [ 61]
I don't agree that Nosferatu are fine. I think any battleship or cruiser class module having the same effect on frigs as it does on ships of its own size is blatantly wrong. People are more or less fitting them because they are cruicial to defense against smaller ships, not because they necessarily need the cap. This is inherently true when you have people in fleets with no tank setup fitting Heavy Nosferatus in their utility slots.
But like all suggestions which threaten the sense of security people have flying battleships, it leads to illogical flames and pre-emptive whining. Thats okay, you're only helping to draw more attention to the issue. The fact that it is an issue with so many people is enough to make the statement "things could be better" true. The day will come when Nosferatus get nerfed, and the day will come when warp jammers and stasis webs become class based, just as it has been done to turrets, missiles, and drones.
Hopefully when we're through squirming in pseudo-disgust, we'll have a nice game with mixed fleets and real tactics. |
Cummilla |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:23:00 - [ 62]
Edited by: Cummilla on 08/02/2006 01:23:16 Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I don't agree that Nosferatu are fine. I think any battleship or cruiser class module having the same effect on frigs as it does on ships of its own size is blatantly wrong. People are more or less fitting them because they are cruicial to defense against smaller ships, not because they necessarily need the cap. This is inherently true when you have people in fleets with no tank setup fitting Heavy Nosferatus in their utility slots.
But like all suggestions which threaten the sense of security people have flying battleships, it leads to illogical flames and pre-emptive whining. Thats okay, you're only helping to draw more attention to the issue. The fact that it is an issue with so many people is enough to make the statement "things could be better" true. The day will come when Nosferatus get nerfed, and the day will come when warp jammers and stasis webs become class based, just as it has been done to turrets, missiles, and drones.
Hopefully when we're through squirming in pseudo-disgust, we'll have a nice game with mixed fleets and real tactics.
I fail to see where it is written that with EVERY module we use must have a dichotemy or worse, that respects that the module in question MUST act differently according to the size ship that it is being used against. It somewhat makes sense for turrets and missiles to utilize that logical construct. But to apply that to EVERY module is just stretching imo. |
Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:23:00 - [ 63]
Nosferatu are the defense against smaller ships, wonder why people expect to survive in a HAC against a close range BS |
Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:29:00 - [ 64]
Very well said DC. I'm not sure webs/scrams need to be size based as other ew isn't, but i sure wouldn't complain if they were. Originally by: Nafri
Nosferatu are the defense against smaller ships, wonder why people expect to survive in a HAC against a close range BS
i don't expect to. But i expect to die because they are shooting me and dealing alot of damage, not because they drain my cap until i can't tank. |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:34:00 - [ 65]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:35:53
I fail to see the logic of 1 small PvP ship vs 1 large PvP ship. Shouldnt the large PvP ship at least have an easy kill/counter vs 1 small PvP ship? 1 BS with 2 hvy NOS cant counter 3 tacklers or more. |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:35:00 - [ 66]
Originally by: Cummilla
Edited by: Cummilla on 08/02/2006 01:23:16
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I am so sexy.
I fail to see where it is written that with EVERY module we use must have a dichotemy or worse, that respects that the module in question MUST act differently according to the size ship that it is being used against.
It somewhat makes sense for turrets and missiles to utilize that logical construct. But to apply that to EVERY module is just stretching imo.
thumps document on game designIts written right here, see? But if you want logic, its far more logical to make a roleplay/scifi reason why Heavy Nosferatus wouldn't work as well on frigs than it is to ignore the situation based on one flawed viewpoint that only exists because it caters to the gameplay of people who can't live without this "must have" module. Like hey, I've got one that is relatively simple. Its a module, it shoots a beam-like thing. One has to assume that this vacuum vortex of cap sucking is generated by something aboard your ship which has the slightest clue of what it should be sucking. One can also assume that the targetting and tracking computers of that module work in the same way as that of turrets or guided warheads. Theres that signature radius crap again :\ I can also come up with 11 more valid explanations, but ya'll wouldn't be interested in hearing that, would you? |
Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:36:00 - [ 67]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:34:52
I fail to see the logic of 1 small PvP ship vs 1 large PvP ship. Shouldnt the large PvP ship at least have an easy kill/counter vs 1 small PvP ship? 1 BS with 2 hvy NOS can counter 3 tacklers or more.
the small ships shouldn't stand much of a chance, and even without nos they don't if the bs pilot has any brains. It is fine for smaller ships to lose to bs, but they are losing for the wrong reasons. |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:38:00 - [ 68]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:41:17 Originally by: Necrologic
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:34:52
I fail to see the logic of 1 small PvP ship vs 1 large PvP ship. Shouldnt the large PvP ship at least have an easy kill/counter vs 1 small PvP ship? 1 BS with 2 hvy NOS cant counter 3 tacklers or more.
the small ships shouldn't stand much of a chance, and even without nos they don't if the bs pilot has any brains. It is fine for smaller ships to lose to bs, but they are losing for the wrong reasons.
If that is the case, then there will always be a chance that 1 small ship can kill 1 large ship, will it not? Assuming killing means BS being tackled for sometime before small ship can run away with the idea that it will never break a BS tank. |
Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:41:00 - [ 69]
|
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:43:00 - [ 70]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:38:01
Originally by: Necrologic
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:34:52
I fail to see the logic of 1 small PvP ship vs 1 large PvP ship. Shouldnt the large PvP ship at least have an easy kill/counter vs 1 small PvP ship? 1 BS with 2 hvy NOS cant counter 3 tacklers or more.
the small ships shouldn't stand much of a chance, and even without nos they don't if the bs pilot has any brains. It is fine for smaller ships to lose to bs, but they are losing for the wrong reasons.
If that is the case, then there will always be a chance that 1 small ship can kill 1 large ship, will it not?
No there isn't, it all depends on your situation. Small ships lack firepower, no matter how awesome you think you are [:'(] and good luck breaking a decent tank without it. As for the logic behind big ships having a hard time killing small ships, nobody ever said that. It only applies to big ship weapons. There is nothing stopping you from fitting medium sized guns, nosferatus and drones on your 100mil isk ship. It seems silly now that you don't need to compromise your effectiveness, but one day you might have to (with any help from God). By then I assume HACs will be up to 300mil, and then it won't seem quite so silly anymore  PS: Yes, I am camping this thread. PPS: Yes, my pants are down. |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:45:00 - [ 71]
Originally by: Necrologic
an ibis can kill an afk bs with hvy NOS. but that's how it should be isn't it? If a blaster taranis fights a tempest with 1400s, missiles, no tank and no drones and hvy NOS shouldnt it win?
Different ****, same outcome? |
Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:45:00 - [ 72]
Quote:
PS: Yes, I am camping this thread.
PPS: Yes, my pants are down.
Good, i can take a break then and go to class |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:50:00 - [ 73]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:55:24 Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:38:01
Originally by: Necrologic
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:34:52
I fail to see the logic of 1 small PvP ship vs 1 large PvP ship. Shouldnt the large PvP ship at least have an easy kill/counter vs 1 small PvP ship? 1 BS with 2 hvy NOS cant counter 3 tacklers or more.
the small ships shouldn't stand much of a chance, and even without nos they don't if the bs pilot has any brains. It is fine for smaller ships to lose to bs, but they are losing for the wrong reasons.
If that is the case, then there will always be a chance that 1 small ship can kill 1 large ship, will it not?
No there isn't, it all depends on your situation. Small ships lack firepower, no matter how awesome you think you are [:'(] and good luck breaking a decent tank without it.
As for the logic behind big ships having a hard time killing small ships, nobody ever said that. It only applies to big ship weapons. There is nothing stopping you from fitting medium sized guns, nosferatus and drones on your 100mil isk ship. It seems silly now that you don't need to compromise your effectiveness, but one day you might have to (with any help from God). By then I assume HACs will be up to 300mil, and then it won't seem quite so silly anymore
PS: Yes, I am camping this thread.
PPS: Yes, my pants are down.
If that is the logic then all arsenals should come in different sizes like guns and missiles. Small ECM, Med ECM, Large ECM.  I think under the current mechanics. Things look fine. If we fix NOS, we will end up breaking other things. Fix other things, end up breaking something else. Fix something else, end up breaking NOS again. Current mechanics for NOS depend on DPS vs NOS. You want more NOS, you lose DPS. Like the OP said, standard issue 2 NOSes. Guess you need a bit more tacklers than one? |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:56:00 - [ 74]
|
Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2006.02.08 01:57:00 - [ 75]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:55:24
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:38:01
Originally by: Necrologic
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/02/2006 01:34:52
I fail to see the logic of 1 small PvP ship vs 1 large PvP ship. Shouldnt the large PvP ship at least have an easy kill/counter vs 1 small PvP ship? 1 BS with 2 hvy NOS cant counter 3 tacklers or more.
the small ships shouldn't stand much of a chance, and even without nos they don't if the bs pilot has any brains. It is fine for smaller ships to lose to bs, but they are losing for the wrong reasons.
If that is the case, then there will always be a chance that 1 small ship can kill 1 large ship, will it not?
No there isn't, it all depends on your situation. Small ships lack firepower, no matter how awesome you think you are [:'(] and good luck breaking a decent tank without it.
As for the logic behind big ships having a hard time killing small ships, nobody ever said that. It only applies to big ship weapons. There is nothing stopping you from fitting medium sized guns, nosferatus and drones on your 100mil isk ship. It seems silly now that you don't need to compromise your effectiveness, but one day you might have to (with any help from God). By then I assume HACs will be up to 300mil, and then it won't seem quite so silly anymore
PS: Yes, I am camping this thread.
PPS: Yes, my pants are down.
If that is the logic then all arsenals should come in different sizes like guns and missiles.
Small ECM, Med ECM, Large ECM.
I think under the current mechanics. Things look fine. If we fix NOS, we will end up breaking other things. Fix other things, end up breaking something else. Fix something else, end up breaking NOS again.
Current mechanics for NOS depend on DPS vs NOS. You want more NOS, you lose DPS. Like the OP said, standard issue 2 NOSes. Guess you need a bit more tacklers than one?
Everything except EW is sized based and ew has different penalties so doesn't need to be (or already is depending on how you look at it.) |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:01:00 - [ 76]
|
Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:01:00 - [ 77]
Edited by: Weirda on 08/02/2006 02:20:50Edited by: Weirda on 08/02/2006 02:03:08 Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I don't agree that Nosferatu are fine. I think any battleship or cruiser class module having the same effect on frigs as it does on ships of its own size is blatantly wrong. People are more or less fitting them because they are cruicial to defense against smaller ships, not because they necessarily need the cap. This is inherently true when you have people in fleets with no tank setup fitting Heavy Nosferatus in their utility slots.
But like all suggestions which threaten the sense of security people have flying battleships, it leads to illogical flames and pre-emptive whining. Thats okay, you're only helping to draw more attention to the issue. The fact that it is an issue with so many people is enough to make the statement "things could be better" true. The day will come when Nosferatus get nerfed, and the day will come when warp jammers and stasis webs become class based, just as it has been done to turrets, missiles, and drones.
Hopefully when we're through squirming in pseudo-disgust, we'll have a nice game with mixed fleets and real tactics.
some good points - and as always, well written. weirda have made a suggestion before (that always get drowned out in the whining)... but it would be a simple, fair, and elegant fix IWHO: NOS Deactivate when there is less cap in target then NOS draws-Friggie nosses would be able to get friggies VERY close to empty -Friggie/Cruiser nosses would be able to get Cruisers VERY close to empty -Cruiser/BS nosses would be getting BS closest to empty (well in reasonable amount of time) this would also force the use of TACTICS with you nos, not just 'turn em on and leave em run'. heavy nos would generally deactivate at a point where friggies/cruisers still had at least a minimal cap to operate on. a well timed 'hit' might knock them down to 0 though. can't think of a possible simpler way, there is already mechanic for deactivating module when there is not enough cap to run them. K.I.S.S. \m/, even Groinsack once posted that he would be ok with this!  now where the **** is weirda paycheck??! EDIT: Pants on... shirt off... |
Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
|
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:07:00 - [ 78]
Originally by: Nimicus
problem solved
No, problem not solved. The problem is very wide, none of your solutions is actually a solution because even if any was a solution, it wouldn't be a solution to the problem (i feel stupid saying this, but apparently it has to be said). Those are not solutions because they don't adress the real problem. So, what's the problem exactly? * Nos is too versatile. It does too many things in too many situations, too many parameters do not have any influence. Sure, there is a range limitation, but it's not a very harsh range limit. You have to be in range for scrambling/warp disrupting and your guns anyway (assuming close range setup, long range setups is something different, but outside large gangs there still has to be someone in range to tackle you so the issue is still there). * Nos is too predictable. About every close range ship is using one, 2 or 3. I know it, AC cyclone got 3, AC rupture got 2, Ac stabber got 2, AC tempest got 2, AC typhoon got 2 upto 4, AC claw got 1, AC rifter got 1... I'm flying minmatar ships, and I really believe that what makes minmatar ships worth flying currently is precisely the nos whorage that's going on. It's predictable because it's too versatile, too powerful, and when your prediction is wrong, all the better... Out of all races, a nerf to nos would probably hurt minmatar the most... is it my selfish interest? probably not. Most likely, nosferatus do not need a nerf, they need a change and more variety, and for the most powerful + longer range version a small sig radius penalty. That's something that doesn't seem to be worth discussing anyway, as the leitmotiv is "nos are fine, they don't need whatever change you didn't even propose yet". I see very little rationality in such position, sorry. * Nos is too powerful. A heavy nos takes 10 cap/s. 10 cap/s is like 20 armor hp/s (t2 rep conversion rate). Average hardening of a 3 hardener armor tank is 60-65% so that's 60 dps that will not be tanked with the cap that is removed. Maxed skill siege launcher t2 is 45 dps accounting reloading and without any damage reduction (flight time, sig radius, speed...). Against a tanked target with cap being a factor, an AC tempest will break a tank faster with 2 nos than with two siege launchers t2. On top of this, you get some handy cap. (i think i made a funny). And, the worse part is that the very same people are arguing that nos can be countered yet that they are a reliable way to get rid of smaller ships. If they can be countered they aren't a reliable defense, and if they are a reliable defense they can't be reliably countered, don't kid yourself and other with that non-sense. Originally by: Nimicus
Cap injector, problem solved.
Only when you have a ship of the right size. This completely, utterly miss the problem that is discussed. Sure, you can scramble with a tiny bit of cap, good luck tanking 80+ dps of 5 light drones (150+ dps of 5 medium drones) and (precision) missiles with whatever cap is left for your tanking abilities (max 100 dps for an hardcore AF tank, max 200 dps for a hardcore cruiser tank, when cap is not an issue) . Originally by: Nimicus
Keep your distance, problem solved.
In the same register: "Stay in station, problem solved". Some ships simply do not have this option, they are there to tackle and to tackle they have to get in range. Parody: "Uh, look, that guy is stupid, he keep trying to scramble me in heavy nos range, what an idiot.". Yeah, right. (continued) |
Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
|
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:07:00 - [ 79]
Originally by: Nimicus
Team mates, problem solved.
Of course, numbers > everything. Whenever there's a balancing problem, that kind of thing comes up. A ship jammed, under 2000+ dps, webbed 9 times, scrambled for 213 points, is never unbalanced whatever its load out, that's your point? The very principle of numbers > any amount of thinking/preparation/skills/setup/mods explains why people blob. This is going to become a classic: "For whatever quality of strategy, there is always a quantity of blobbing to beat it". Interesting side effect is that it makes any amount of balancing irrelevant, since with the right number of people you'll always find someone who can use the unbalanced mod/ship/setup (not very hard for nosferatus, even) and use it even more than the opposition. Originally by: Nimicus
Fit Nos, problem solved.
Which is a problem. When a mod is its own counter, there is no choice anymore. No strategy. See, your solution is my problem. So your solution is not a solution. Originally by: Nimicus
ECM, problem solved.
ECM is a counter to many setups/mods/fittings/ships. Being so versatile, it needs to be weak against so many things individually. Yet it is not enough, hence today's ECM whorage. A good tank tops at 500 dps, A good gank setup tops at 1000 dps. Why chose to tank half the damage when jamming "tank" all the damage, and it's good for the whole gang (while tanking only protects your ship, if and only if it ever gets shot at). There's no reason, hence what we see now. So, something that is very powerful is countered by something else, very powerful. No, not really. The conclusion of this logic is that people get into bigger ships, as they tend to have more slots for EW. And, did this adress the original problem? Not to the slightest. Originally by: Nimicus
Seriously, the "Nerf Nos" posts need to stop.
They need to, that's something we agree about. Do you thing that if we shout "stop posting nerf nos threads" together it will work? Or do we rather adress the problem, the very problem that you are trying to make look like not a problem? There are people who believe that problem only exist when someone talk about them. There are other who realize that this is only their social existence, and that they might very well exist besides their social representation. Guess's who's who. Guess's who's right. Originally by: Nimicus
Just because you can't counter Nos with a convenient click of the mouse or fitting a single mod doesn't mean you can't counter them at all. Nos serve a valuable front-line function.
There are very overpowered ships and mods that can be countered very easily. That doesn't make a balanced game because of the notion of versatility, and because uncertainty is at the core of this game. When there is no uncertainty, versatility has way less value. Originally by: Nimicus
BS equip Nos as a defense against smaller ships, and they should have SOME defense vs smaller ships. Upgrading your ship shouldn't mean totally losing any effectiveness against smaller class ships. Many here feel it should.
That's absolutely not the deal. Of course, large ships should have some way to defend themselves against smaller ships. There have to be options, they need to work and work well, they need to be worth fitting. Large ships should be worth flying. (continued) |
Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
|
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:07:00 - [ 80]
The real problem is that you also need to give smaller ships a role, and the current state of balance somehow negate the need for small ships. As in, you don't really need them, a bigger ship would do even better. The problem is that the nosferatu is a mod that currently makes it often better to tackle with large ships, due to it's properties (versatility and all). That doesn't mean that smaller ships are not worth flying in some circumstances, that means that if you are going to specialize and invest skill points into a ship, you better chose a big ship because otherwise you pay a huge opportunity cost for not flying the big bad toy generally best for whatever task. Big ships are too often better than small ships even for tackling, when tackling was something that was the role of smaller ships. You can't tell people who want not to fly large ships to fly them or quit because the lastest nos technology made your smaller ships redundant. As much as you can't say to blasterthron pilot to quit or train for a raven, because lastest torp technology made their ship + weapon redundant. Or whatever, really. Things have to have a role, and a role wide enough to make specialization for their ship in their role worth over another specialisation, in another ship, for another role. Versatile ships makes the opportunity cost of flying something else too important, as in various situations (remember uncertainty is a factor) they won't perform as good overall than the versatile ship. Interesting note, the typhoon is versatile (as in, it can perform equally "well" in a very wide set of circumstance) but the cost of this versatility is so high that it ends up being too poor in whatever circumstance. Versatility should come at a cost, and at times the cost is too low. At times, the cost is too high. Ideal situation is versatility at no cost, and then you have something overpowered. As obvious as it sounds, good ships/mods have to be nerfed or bad ships/mods have to be boosted to keep options open. Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
so right, you feel that your hac is crippled becouse of 2 heavy nos? why is that? maybe becouse you fitt your hac for gankage and not survive ability?
so right, you feel that your battleship is crippled becouse of 2 frigates? why is that? maybe becouse you fitt your battleship for gankage and not survive ability? Any battleship can tank two t2 frigates with max skills and damage mods forever (except if they are two gank-ishkurs with maxed skills and t2 medium drones, into large smartbomb range with a weak tank). Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
and for those whining that heavy nos is too useful? omfg you deserve to die. "damage mod in my eyes is too useful becouse everone uses them omg", what you gonna do about that?
Eh. Precisely. You must be blind if you don't see the issue with damage mods. It's related to how tanking work. In any situation, you want to maximise your damage and your tank. With the damage thresold of a gank-setup being twice as high as the tank thresold of a tank-setup, if you can make sure that the various damage reductions (flight time, tracking, sig radius, EW) are inferior to 50%, you'll start using slots to tank (EW aside, and not considering cap) only when the marginal gain of a tanking mod (in dps) is above the marginal gain of a damage mod (in dps). This rarely happens before fitting a few damage mods, and that's precisely why few people tank. I happen to think that there's a balancing issue with damage mods, thanks for reminding me... (continued) |
Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
|
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:08:00 - [ 81]
Once more, someone is campaigning for a mod that is significantly reducing the ability of the opponent to defend itself, instead of trying to boost the defense of its own ship. The result: shorter fights. Why don't you campaign to make tanking worthwhile? Don't answer, i know why. First reason is because you can't see the fight under any other perspective than, i need to kill the guy before he kills me, so i need to kill faster. See how it's not the only way to look at it. Secondly, because whatever could happen, tanking will never be worthwhile (as opposed to max damage + ew), as at the very moment it becomes really worthwile it will still (argh) be better to fit ships for max damage and bring more of them. You could try to understand that paradox and come with a proposition, but no... it's so much easier to run around "nos is fine, nos is fine". Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
and what is keeping you from fitting ecm on your hac? or what about a cap booster? you can fitt like 2 400 batteries in one cap booster, two heavy nos will take 200 cap every 12 sec, and you get 400 cap every 15 sec? oh noes i found a solution for you!
Believe me, people though about this before you, and they still don't do it with any kind of regularity. Why, are they dumb? There's more in life than trying to say, whatever i don't understand must necessarily be dumb and precisely, that's one of those cases. People not fitting what you propose are not dumb, despite what you propose being somehow a solution. How? Very simple. People do what's best all around, everybody does that. Including you. Granted, you need to define what's the scope of "all-around" and that is a function of the amount of information/uncertainty. Specialized fittings will beat non specialized fittings (or else there's something really wrong) but the problem is that other, non specialized fittings, will beat the specialized fitting. As there are (and its very rational) many non specialized fittings around (as specialized fittings are very vulnerable to non specialized fittings by design) you end up seeing non specialized fittings that are too good, as they require specialized fittings - weak all around - to defeat them. Long story short, a specialized fitting will never be overpowered, you are only likely to find overpowered cookie-cutter setups, and it's even more pathetic to see people trying to defend cookie-cutter setups, and mods, by saying that it took a lot of thinking to come up with them. No, it didn't. Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
to give it a twist, the problem is hacs, cruisers etc not wanting to change THEIR tactics.
As opposed to, you not willing to change your tactic if nos ever get changed. See how this is a pointless excercise? Originally by: Wrayeth
My raven was hit hard by Cold War, and I had to adjust my setup and tactics to make it worth flying in PvP, but I've finally found a good balance. Everyone gets this on occasion, but it just means changing your tactics and setups.
No offense, but the raven is now more powerful than it ever was, and this time I really think that you are trying to bull**** everybody. You take pride in something that doesn't deserve it, really. Originally by: Wrayeth
BTW, for tacklers who have trouble tackling due to nos, just fit one yourself. Activate your scrambler immediately after you've gotten that fresh injection of energy from your nosferatu. It should allow you to keep your scramble on, even if you can't fire your guns.
Same as above. Let me quote myself. Quote:
And, the worse part is that the very same people are arguing that nos can be countered yet that they are a reliable way to get rid of smaller ships. If they can be countered they aren't a reliable defense, and if they are a reliable defense they can't be reliably countered, don't kid yourself and other with that non-sense.
Says it all, really. (continued) |
Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
|
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:08:00 - [ 82]
Originally by: WizEye
keep your distance ffs. A BS with 2 nos is a BS with 2 less guns which is a serious advantage for the enemy if you can stay away from its nos range. Any BS with nos in all its highs is a dead bs if it can't get close enough.
So because there are nos battleship, no close range cruiser should exist. And because there are nos cruisers, no close range frigate should exist. Finally, cruisers pop frigates at range, battleships pop cruisers at range, and we all end up in the only viable ships (and very viable all around): the battleship. Yeah, but smaller ships are very effective in groups. And battleships are not? Come on. Originally by: WizEye
Sure, you're most likely not going to be able to scramble that BS because of keeping range, but you'll live.
And by not leaving the station (or by not logging in at all) you're most likely not going to be able to scramble that BS, but you'll live. Look, i solved every balancing issue in the game with my solution. Shall I get a cookie? Originally by: WizEye
Honestly, even when I'm flying my nos dominix I don't really feel comfortable against ceptors like most of you. A smart frig pilot will shoot drones down first and then you. If you're out of drones, you're dead.
Oh, yeah, a smart pilot will shot 375m³ of drones while nossed. I wish i was this smart. Originally by: WizEye
Same thing for other BS in close combat. Blasterthrons and Ravens can rip a new ******* to any nos setup if their timing is good.
Oh, would that mean that despite nosferatus being too powerful, they are not totally overpowered to the point there is nothing that is a threat to them? CCP, fix this. I want every overpowered mod to be completely overpowered, so that there is no discussion - ever - about balancing issues. Originally by: WizEye
There's nothing overpowered in nos, you just have to be smart enough to use their user weakness.
Ah. As opposed to fit a nos, which doesn't require you to be smart. It's not like there is a choice, remember. It's the best all around and it doesn't require you to think much about it. As a result of the uncertainty in a game working according to the principles of EVE combat, as I wrote above, the most overpowered mods/ships are likely to be the most frequently encountered. That doesn't mean that everything that is frequently encountered is overpowered (necessary conditions is not always sufficient). So you are trying to tell me that people who are fitting a mod frequently encountered are fitting it because they are smart? So, according to this logic, most people would be smart. Err... No. It doesn't require you to think to fit a nos, especially since as many people seem to consider that it is the only way bigger ships have to protect themself. No choice, no strategy, no need to think. You don't want to think, and to take care of the subsequent problems you want everybody else to think (despite how obvious it is that no amount of thinking ever will cure something that no amount of thinking would ever cure). Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Uggster
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:11:00 - [ 83]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Nimicus
Cap injector, problem solved.
or
Keep your distance, problem solved.
or
Team mates, problem solved.
or
Fit Nos, problem solved.
or
ECM, problem solved.
Seriously, the "Nerf Nos" posts need to stop. Just because you can't counter Nos with a convenient click of the mouse or fitting a single mod doesn't mean you can't counter them at all. Nos serve a valuable front-line function.
BS equip Nos as a defense against smaller ships, and they should have SOME defense vs smaller ships. Upgrading your ship shouldn't mean totally losing any effectiveness against smaller class ships. Many here feel it should.
I support this post.
Nos.
Are.
Fine.
Agreed. And it's not like they only work for 1 person is it. |
Emeline Cabernet
Amarr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:18:00 - [ 84]
class based web and scram too? |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:21:00 - [ 85]
Originally by: Emeline Cabernet
class based web and scram too?
The future whine thread after NOS. |
Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:22:00 - [ 86]
Edited by: Weirda on 08/02/2006 02:22:44...and now with naughty's uberpost... weirda's will never be seen. again. ...all the dev have weirda on block list too - it would seem... |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:23:00 - [ 87]
|
Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
|
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:24:00 - [ 88]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 08/02/2006 02:29:25No weirda anymore?  Edit: Oh, sorry  . Much clearer with your edit. /me likes the idea. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. |
Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless- |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:51:00 - [ 89]
Quote:
This is inherently true when you have people in fleets with no tank setup fitting Heavy Nosferatus in their utility slots.
I have seen this several times, but I am not sure you can contribute _ALL_ Nos fittings to the idea that Nos are uber, although I personally believe that they are a touch overpowered now, but not moreso than ECM. People put Nos in utility slots because there is nothing else worthwhile to mount in that slot. The 3 non-turret/non missile highslot items are:  Nosferatu Unsmartbombs Mining Lasers What else are you going to stick in those empty highslots? If CCP introduced a highslot item like a "Solar Panel" that granted a recharge rate to cap, or some other semi-decent high slot utility items then I think you would see the "every ship utility slot filled with a nos" syndrome stop. As it stands there is nothing else of value to mount in a highslot besides a turret/missile and a Nos. Nyxus |
Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2006.02.08 02:54:00 - [ 90]
Well done Naughty Boy.
Folks, if you want to argue that nos are fine/counterable you need to read naughty boy's post and be able to rebuttle it. Otherwise your statments are just opinions and don't mean anything. |
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