| Author |
Topic |
DrunkenOne
Unknown Soldiers
B O R G |
Posted - 2005.11.21 01:20:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/11/2005 18:16:08
With the hp and tanking boost (which i agree with), the damage mod nerf (which i also agree with), and the plate nerf (which I dont fully agree with), minmatar lose some of the abilitys which makes them special (and also the only things making them competitive in PVP). We already have the worst BC, the arguably worst HAC, and the worst BS... so you gotta wonder how will we be screwed over now? However, there also are some interesting boosts which I will go over.
Nerfs:
- Autocannons do less dps than blasers, but this is because they have more falloff, ability to pick damage, and low fitting. Low fitting now doesn't matter as much on many ships, as plates become basically unviable on most setups. On top of that, our low DPS matters even more now that other ships can tank better than us while doing more dps.
Look at the muninn. Currently, the only real decent close range setup is autocannons and a 1600 plate, which we can fit quite well due to the low grid use on autocannons (one of our bonuses). If you use no plate, you are forced to depend on a mediocre tank which needs 2 hardners to repair the 2 gaping wholes in your armor resists. So lets say you fit a med rep II and 2 hardners. Now theres 2 low slots left for whatever.
Compare to a zealot, a cerb, or a deimos, which post patch can fit a better tank, while doing more damage. Worst damage + worst tank 4tw? And don't argue that "omg you can beat a zealot!!!" cause no one spends 70 mil on a ship to be able to kill one ship. Solution? Boost dps of blasters and autocannons by 5-10% (this is needed already BEFORE defense boosts in patch), and then take high from muninn and give it low.
- The damage mod stacking combined with tanking boosts ruins the alpha strike. 720 II gank setup on a muninn? Nerfed. 1400 IIs gank tempest? Nerfed. We already do BY FAR the least dps on our long ranges guns, the alpha strike was the only real advantage. Solution: Boost arty dps by 5-10%.
- Fix the phoon, come on I know its fun for everyone at ccp to look on the server and laugh at anyone using one, but its getting a bit old now.
- Autoclaw and autowolf nerfed back to the stone age, time to stock up on 280 IIs.
- Vaga nerfed to hell, no more large extender II unless you want the sig of a moon.
- Vigil now worthless, thanks a lot.
Pluses:
+ Shield tanking will be better, which means we might actually be able to fit a decent shield tank on our TWO ships which can currently do it anywhere near effectively.
+ MASSIVE boost to cyclone. Extra mid + boost to bonus = close range auto shield tanked cyclone 4twwwwwww.
+ Rifter gets extra low, extra mid, loses speed bonus. I count it overall as a plus. |
Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance |
Posted - 2005.11.21 01:31:00 - [ 2]
I don't like the new stacking changes, borks too many things imo. |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 01:34:00 - [ 3]
Maybe theyve changed the figures yet againt, but last i tested a 400mm plate was giving 10% speed penalty or less on frigs, and a 1600 plate 10% or less on cruiser/bc... has this changed? Id go on sisi myself, but im busy data-recovering a drive  |
Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance |
Posted - 2005.11.21 01:34:00 - [ 4]
 Originally by: DrunkenOne
- Vaga nerfed to hell, no more large extender II unless you want the sig of a moon.
Vaga's base signature radius is 115m. With 1 large extender II it's 140m. Thats not bad at all especially consdering you zoom around at 1km/s with AB, no battleship is going to hit you. |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 01:43:00 - [ 5]
OMG they put the masses up again, ugh.  They were just about right last time around, lets hope its not final. |
Evil Edna
Jian Products Engineering Group
Atlas. |
Posted - 2005.11.21 01:56:00 - [ 6]
the phoon is a great ship if you know how to use it
minmmatar right now have one of the best hacs in the vaga, if not the best
2 good battleships and good AFs and ceptors |
El Yatta
0utbreak |
Posted - 2005.11.21 02:12:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/11/2005 01:23:58
With the hp and tanking boost (which i agree with), the damage mod nerf (which i also agree with), and the plate nerf (which I dont fully agree with), minmatar lose some of the abilitys which makes them special (and also the only things making them competitive in PVP). We already have the worst BC, the arguably worst HAC, and the worst BS... so you gotta wonder how will we be screwed over now? However, there also are some interesting boosts which I will go over.
Nerfs:
- Autocannons do less dps than blasers, but this is because they have more falloff, ability to pick damage, and low fitting. Low fitting now doesn't matter as much on many ships, as plates become basically unviable on most setups. On top of that, our low DPS matters even more now that other ships can tank better than us while doing more dps.
Look at the muninn. Currently, the only real decent close range setup is autocannons and a 1600 plate, which we can fit quite well due to the low grid use on autocannons (one of our bonuses). If you use no plate, you are forced to depend on a mediocre tank which needs 2 hardners to repair the 2 gaping wholes in your armor resists. So lets say you fit a med rep II and 2 hardners. Now theres 2 low slots left for whatever.
Compare to a zealot, a cerb, or a deimos, which post patch can fit a better tank, while doing more damage. Worst damage + worst tank 4tw? And don't argue that "omg you can beat a zealot!!!" cause no one spends 70 mil on a ship to be able to kill one ship. Solution? Boost dps of blasters and autocannons by 5-10% (this is needed already BEFORE defense boosts in patch), and then take high from muninn and give it low.
- The damage mod stacking combined with tanking boosts ruins the alpha strike. 720 II gank setup on a muninn? Nerfed. 1400 IIs gank tempest? Nerfed. We already do BY FAR the least dps on our long ranges guns, the alpha strike was the only real advantage. Solution: Boost arty dps by 5-10%.
- Fix the phoon, come on I know its fun for everyone at ccp to look on the server and laugh at anyone using one, but its getting a bit old now.
- Autoclaw and autowolf nerfed back to the stone age, time to stock up on 280 IIs.
- Vaga nerfed to hell, no more large extender II unless you want the sig of a moon.
- Vigil now worthless, thanks a lot.
Pluses:
+ Shield tanking will be better, which means we might actually be able to fit a decent shield tank on our TWO ships which can currently do it anywhere near effectively.
+ MASSIVE boost to cyclone. Extra mid + boost to bonus = close range auto shield tanked cyclone 4twwwwwww.
+ Rifter gets extra low, extra mid, loses speed bonus. I count it overall as a plus.
Aren't you contradicting yourself by saying artillery alpha-gank fits, like 280mm II wolves, are getting nerfed -( can you one-shot an inty with +25%HP?) but then say that autoclaws/wolves are totally useless now, time to dig out the 280II.... surely its just your always-plated fits that are nerfed, not autos at all. The vaga would still be fine with large extender II, as come on, 140 radius at over 1kms? No different to 115, if you ask me. Some valid points on alpha strike vs. DoT and the munnin (which is definitely not the worst HAC, its quite awesome, just not on par with Ishtar or Zealot [and maybe, post patch, teh cerb - its winning me around with the EW potential, lots of cpu, and heavy launchers DoT boost]), though. |
Angus Therm0pyle
X-Fire
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 02:19:00 - [ 8]
nah munnin is the worst hac name one worse? |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 02:20:00 - [ 9]
sacrilege |
Angus Therm0pyle
X-Fire
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 02:28:00 - [ 10]
its a tanker a munnin is just a rupture no difference except for extra turrent an pg |
Tekka
Caldari
Sneaky Beaver
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 02:29:00 - [ 11]
Vaga worst hac? WHAT?!  |
Angus Therm0pyle
X-Fire
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 02:35:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Tekka
Vaga worst hac? WHAT?!
god dammit tekka I cut myself on your sig you should of had an warning |
DrunkenOne
Unknown Soldiers
B O R G |
Posted - 2005.11.21 02:52:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: El Yatta
Aren't you contradicting yourself by saying artillery alpha-gank fits, like 280mm II wolves, are getting nerfed -( can you one-shot an inty with +25%HP?) but then say that autoclaws/wolves are totally useless now, time to dig out the 280II.... surely its just your always-plated fits that are nerfed, not autos at all.
The vaga would still be fine with large extender II, as come on, 140 radius at over 1kms? No different to 115, if you ask me.
Some valid points on alpha strike vs. DoT and the munnin (which is definitely not the worst HAC, its quite awesome, just not on par with Ishtar or Zealot [and maybe, post patch, teh cerb - its winning me around with the EW potential, lots of cpu, and heavy launchers DoT boost]), though.
I'm not contradicting myself at all, the hp changes and damage mod changes dont have much of an impact at all on inty or AF combat, the plate changes change it much more, which is both a blessing and a curse. No more autos + plates, but now you can basically 2 volley any inty with a claw as they wont have plates on anymore. I must have had the numbers on extenders wrong, thats not so bad then. And the only HACs comparably bad to the munnin is the sac and eagle, both of which will have uber tanks post patch, whereas the muninn has the worst tank. Zealot, Ishtar, Cerb, vaga, Deimos, all LOADS better than a muninn. Originally by: Evil Edna
the phoon is a great ship if you know how to use it
minmmatar right now have one of the best hacs in the vaga, if not the best
2 good battleships and good AFs and ceptors
Please tell the class "how to use it?" Name one ACTUALLY USEFUL setup that it does better than a tempest (and dont say omg u can fit on 7 nanos and go fast, if i wanted to go fast i'd fly an inty). Good AFs? They have the tied for worst AF in the jag (vengeance is just as bad), which is basically a rifter that costs 100x as much, and the wolf is maybe at most the 4th best AF (harpy/enyo/ishkur are all MUCH better). Originally by: Tekka
Vaga worst hac? WHAT?!
When did I say that? |
Trelennen
Disturbed Hoggs
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:16:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Compare to a zealot, a cerb, or a deimos, which post patch can fit a better tank, while doing more damage. Worst damage + worst tank 4tw? And don't argue that "omg you can beat a zealot!!!" cause no one spends 70 mil on a ship to be able to kill one ship. Solution? Boost dps of blasters and autocannons by 5-10% (this is needed already BEFORE defense boosts in patch), and then take high from muninn and give it low.
I see Muninn as an arty plateform (the AC HAC plateform being the vaga), and hence should be shield tankable imho, and it would be much better with an additional med for that one less high rather than an additional low. With T2 minmatar resists, you could do a rather good shield tank with 4 slots (see the vaga). Of course this would put vaga and muninn with the same slot layouts, muninn only having one more turret HP (I always find weird that minmatar long range friendly ships are often not decently shield tankable, like the rupture - can't be sure, but I suppose CCP has designed it to be fitted pure gank with a minimal tank in med, eg. only med booster, and 1 RCU or so in low and rest damage mods / tracking enhancers, which is not really viable except for ganking at gates / in fleet, and really not viable any longer after RMR with better tanking / lesser ganking). |
DrunkenOne
Unknown Soldiers
B O R G |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:17:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Trelennen
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Compare to a zealot, a cerb, or a deimos, which post patch can fit a better tank, while doing more damage. Worst damage + worst tank 4tw? And don't argue that "omg you can beat a zealot!!!" cause no one spends 70 mil on a ship to be able to kill one ship. Solution? Boost dps of blasters and autocannons by 5-10% (this is needed already BEFORE defense boosts in patch), and then take high from muninn and give it low.
I see Muninn as an arty plateform (the AC HAC plateform being the vaga), and hence should be shield tankable imho, and it would be much better with an additional med for that one less high rather than an additional low. With T2 minmatar resists, you could do a rather good shield tank with 4 slots (see the vaga). Of course this would put vaga and muninn with the same slot layouts, muninn only having one more turret HP (I always find weird that minmatar long range friendly ships are often not decently shield tankable, like the rupture - can't be sure, but I suppose CCP has designed it to be fitted pure gank with a minimal tank in med, eg. only med booster, and 1 RCU or so in low and rest damage mods / tracking enhancers, which is not really viable except for ganking at gates / in fleet, and really not viable any longer after RMR with better tanking / lesser ganking).
Muninn and vaga have the same # of turrets. The vaga is superior in basically every way. All it can do is be a 720 II platform, which you can do on a cyclone post patch for only 25% less damage, with 2 extra mids, 1/3 the cost, and fully insurable. |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:24:00 - [ 16]
Well, thats much the same for other HAC/BC comparisons drunken.
Ferox does the same dps as an eagle @ 50% less range
Prophecy does roughly the same dps as zealot @ 50% less range
Brutix does similar dps as deimos but without the falloff boost
of course, theyre slower, bigger, and dont tank as well. |
DrunkenOne
Unknown Soldiers
B O R G |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:32:00 - [ 17]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/11/2005 03:34:50Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/11/2005 03:33:40 Originally by: keepiru
Well, thats much the same for other HAC/BC comparisons drunken.
Ferox does the same dps as an eagle @ 50% less range
Prophecy does roughly the same dps as zealot @ 50% less range
Brutix does similar dps as deimos but without the falloff boost
of course, theyre slower, bigger, and dont tank as well.
True, bad example... ok, put it this way: Compare eagle to moa: Eagle does 25% more damage, at much more range, with much better resists and more mids. Eagle can snipe and fit a tank at the same time. Compare zealot to omen: Zealot does 25% more damage, has extra lows for damage mods/tank, and much better resists. Zealot can do great damage with a good tank. Compare deimos to thorax: Deimos does 25% more damage (once drone bay is nerfed or course), with an extra highslot for a nos as well as uber resists. Deimos can do great damage with a decent tank. Muninn does 20% more damage than a rupture. Munnin doesnt fit a tank in 720 II mode (which is the only thing it does well), so its resists dont even really factor in. On top of all that, rupture is getting bosted in mk2, meaning it makes even less sense to fly a muninn over it. |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:37:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Muninn does 20% more damage than a rupture. Munnin doesnt fit a tank in 720 II mode (which is the only thing it does well), so its resists dont even really factor in. On top of all that, rupture is getting bosted in mk2, meaning it makes even less sense to fly a muninn over it.
Oh i agree the muninn needs a boost, dont get me wrong. That was my pedantic streak there.  Of course the problem is finding a way to boost it that doesent make it overpowered or requires a complete rework of the ship. The same problem is apparent in the "boost the sacrilege" threads. |
Trelennen
Disturbed Hoggs
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:38:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Muninn does 20% more damage than a rupture, which costs 1/10 the cost. Munnin doesnt fit a tank in 720 II mode (which is the only thing it does well), so its resists dont even really factor in. On top of all that, rupture is getting bosted in mk2, meaning it makes even less sense to fly a muninn over it.
Well, if it had a 4th med, Muninn could fit a decent tank when being 720 II (fitting shield tank). And it'd give a true advantage vs the rupture, as you'd be able to fit reasonable amount of damage in low, while still having a decent tank and artys (well, rupy will be able to fit a decent armor tank with arty with MK2 though, but the minmatar HAC shield resists are really great, and only for this I'd fly a Muninn over a rupture if it was decently shield tankable, even with its cost x10 ;)). But yeah, Muninn is definitely not that much better than a rupture, where the other HACs usualy are (or will be for Deimos/Thorax ;)) |
Foulis
Minmatar
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing
SMASH Alliance |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:39:00 - [ 20]
good AFs? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
The jaguar is _best_ defined as a heavy tackler. _TACKLER_ come on! AFs are supposed to be able to do a good amount of damage and tank, but the jag is only really able to last slightly less time then an inty 'cause it's slower and has a larger sig. And the wolf, while good at npcing SUCKS against any other AF unless you are specifically set up to deal with that ship, and they aren't gallente, minmatar, or caldari. Everyone else has an AF that does something good, the ret is the KING of ganking, even if it can't hold the enemy down. the harpy can fit rails like nobodies buisness and the gallante have the enyo and ishkur, an awesome blaster rig and an extremely effective and versatile drone platform. I've never been in a position in a minmatar AF where I couldn't say, "I would rather be in this ship than any other AF". It sucks.
/end of minmatar whine |
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:41:00 - [ 21]
T2 ships need an MK2 overhaul like Tech 1 got. |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:42:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
T2 ships need an MK2 overhaul like Tech 1 got.
Yeah, and they can start by giving AFs a 4th bonus. |
Trelennen
Disturbed Hoggs
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:47:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
T2 ships need an MK2 overhaul like Tech 1 got.
Yeah, and they can start by giving AFs a 4th bonus.
And give jag, vengeance and hawk their 11th slot (ishkur doesn't need it due to its soon to be boosted in RMR drone bay) - low for vengeance, med for the other two, and missile launcher HP for the hawk. |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:49:00 - [ 24]
And resist bonus instead of cap for vengeance, as well resists instead of shield hp for hawk. |
Kael D'mende
Minmatar
We Come In Peace
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:55:00 - [ 25]
I totaly agree, im a devoted minm pilot, and it seems that was a mistake, cuz our guns are crap.. low dps = death, boost the rof or the damage, where rof would be better imo for auto's and damage for artys, we where relaying on burst damage, but after patch, we will be thrown back to the stoneage imo.. :O(
Phoon:
Fix it please.. useless bonus = useless ship..
might wanna think about giving it a nos, drone bonus or someting that is remotely usefull..
/Kael |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:57:00 - [ 26]
BUt back on topic - muninn and minnie in general:
I think part of the problem, apart from the obvious alpha strike not being a viable advantage to justify the poor tracking, dps and range of howies, is the absolute ****-poorness of the 2nd-class howies.
Youve done the maths drunken and you know better than me how absolutely ****ing abysmal 250mm, 650mm and 1200mm are at well... anything. |
keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2005.11.21 03:59:00 - [ 27]
Heck, making minm ammo do the same total damage as the other races would be a good start, and they could probably hotfix that in. |
Arti K
Invicta. |
Posted - 2005.11.21 04:08:00 - [ 28]
Edited by: Arti K on 21/11/2005 04:19:53
People want to compare 1400mm II's directly to say mega beam II's or 425mm II's, but they neglect the fact that we can't fit 7 or 8 of these guns, and we have less lowslots. If they're going to add 25% hps to everything, then I want the tempest to get a 7th turret hardpoint, and the powergrid fittings on artilleries lowered enough that I can fit 7 1400mm II's on, then we can talk about comparing the 425mm II's to 1400mm II's, despite us having one less lowslot.
On the test server autocannons have gotten nerfed by the dmg mod stack changes so 800mm II's have roughly .4 less dmg mod and .13s longer RoF if you're fitting all gank. Shield tanking is exactly the same, no changes -- just a little more HP. Shield tanking is still extremely cap intensive and the fact that eveyrthing has 25% more HP just makes it much worse, and armor tanking is like a win button.
I mean honestly, it took me at least 45 seconds to kill a fully tanked megathron 1v1 @ 5km today on test server, I was ****ed. I actually had to reload my cap injector, and I don't know if I'll have the attention span if these fights go on for more than 60 seconds. If nobody has the 'I WIN' buttons, then nobody wins, except for maybe the terrorists. |
Trelennen
Disturbed Hoggs
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 04:18:00 - [ 29]
Originally by: Kael D'mende
I totaly agree, im a devoted minm pilot, and it seems that was a mistake, cuz our guns are crap.. low dps = death, boost the rof or the damage, where rof would be better imo for auto's and damage for artys, we where relaying on burst damage, but after patch, we will be thrown back to the stoneage imo.. :O(
Well, indeed rof for AC and damage for artys would fit better with the background, but come on! the ammo consumption of AC is already really high, and I wouldn't want to have it increased (heck, that's the main thing that made me go back to artys on my rupture...). Artys, given that alpha strike will loose a big chunk of its usefulness, could use a better rof to compensate (specialy given that less damage mods => higher rof). Not even considering that lower rof for AC will increase their cap consumption even more, and it's already the only short range weapon that use (way) more cap than its long range counterpart :p (not that 1 cap per shot is much for med AC, but when you get 1 shot / s it begins to be noticeable (heavy ion use 4 cap / 3s, dual-180 1 cap / 3s, and you go down quite quickly to 1s rof, specialy with rof bonus on ships ;)). |
Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
|
Posted - 2005.11.21 04:30:00 - [ 30]
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