Originally by: Ceelah

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Edited by: Ceelah on 23/08/2011 19:14:57

Your use of "Hipsterism" indicates your lack of EVE knowledge. Most veteran EVE players proudly consider themselves to be "MMO Elitists".

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Originally by: M5 Tuttle

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Originally by: Mendolus

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Originally by: M5 Tuttle

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I think you guys need to visit the wow forums once in a while and realize that the only difference between you and them is quantity and average amount of butthurt per player. Also perhaps a certain level of pretentious hipsterism.

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Now you are showing your ignorance though, and I mean that in the most literal sense, that you have no understanding of the linear history of these forums even for the past few years, so your understanding of the scope of the problem is extremely limited as others have been saying. I however, feel that your scope is not limited solely by looking at the problems and making generalizations, but looking at the problems and not having an understanding of how they have evolved over time.

Not everything is due to either the game's development progression or subscriber base over time exclusively but a mix of everything in between. Something you would not have knowledge of.

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This is probably a fair assessment. I won't try to generalize and say that Eve players have always been this way because I haven't been around here for very long. Are there forums that I can go to, though, that aren't a nonstop self-important circlejerk whinefest?

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Originally by: Rath Kelbore

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Originally by: M5 Tuttle

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Originally by: Mendolus

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Originally by: M5 Tuttle

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I think you guys need to visit the wow forums once in a while and realize that the only difference between you and them is quantity and average amount of butthurt per player. Also perhaps a certain level of pretentious hipsterism.

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Now you are showing your ignorance though, and I mean that in the most literal sense, that you have no understanding of the linear history of these forums even for the past few years, so your understanding of the scope of the problem is extremely limited as others have been saying. I however, feel that your scope is not limited solely by looking at the problems and making generalizations, but looking at the problems and not having an understanding of how they have evolved over time.

Not everything is due to either the game's development progression or subscriber base over time exclusively but a mix of everything in between. Something you would not have knowledge of.

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This is probably a fair assessment. I won't try to generalize and say that Eve players have always been this way because I haven't been around here for very long. Are there forums that I can go to, though, that aren't a nonstop self-important circlejerk whinefest?

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Isn't that what forums are for???

@mendolus

I've been around since 08, and I don't recall the forums being any less troll/meme filled than they are now??? Since incarna there's been more forum rage than normal perhaps but I think your waxing a bit nostalgic about "better times".

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Originally by: Helena Vexar

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Edited by: Helena Vexar on 23/08/2011 19:38:57

Originally by: Dopesick

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As many of us that have been playing since '03, '04...

Back then, we saw the possibilities of this game. Over the next few years we saw it going in that general direction..

Then we started to see Eve's decline.

We are now in a game that is near nothing like it was supposed to be.

Newer players will never understand this and will always look at us as kneckbeards that can do nothing but whine.

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Who are you kidding? My account has been around since 03, you all complained the same way then. There are just more of you now. Walking in stations has been talked about for years, and you people were begging for it then, and getting on CCP for taking so long to release it. Now it is here and all you people do is ***** about how you don't want it. The people in the eve community just like to give CCP hell. Bunch of spoiled nasty brats. I have never myself seen a community as negative as eves either.

When have you ever seen a developer have a player elected council called into Dev meetings to discuss what the community wants with any other game ever released??? Well CCP does that! You people just can not be pleased. You are completely resistant to change, and you expect eve to be completely the way it was in 03 even though the game is growing and getting better than it ever was. I honestly don't understand how CCP puts up with this community anymore, but I do know they are getting tired of the negative crowd as well. I can hear it in their tone every time they release public statements how frustrated with you all they are. This is a company who bends over backwards to please its community. But the second they make a decision to increase cash flow for them, you all flip out about it. Do you all really believe they made eve to cure cancer? They are a business! Seriously, grow the **** up

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Originally by: Dopesick

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Originally by: Helena Vexar

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Edited by: Helena Vexar on 23/08/2011 19:38:57

Originally by: Dopesick

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As many of us that have been playing since '03, '04...

Back then, we saw the possibilities of this game. Over the next few years we saw it going in that general direction..

Then we started to see Eve's decline.

We are now in a game that is near nothing like it was supposed to be.

Newer players will never understand this and will always look at us as kneckbeards that can do nothing but whine.

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Who are you kidding? My account has been around since 03, you all complained the same way then. There are just more of you now. Walking in stations has been talked about for years, and you people were begging for it then, and getting on CCP for taking so long to release it. Now it is here and all you people do is ***** about how you don't want it. The people in the eve community just like to give CCP hell. Bunch of spoiled nasty brats. I have never myself seen a community as negative as eves either.

When have you ever seen a developer have a player elected council called into Dev meetings to discuss what the community wants with any other game ever released??? Well CCP does that! You people just can not be pleased. You are completely resistant to change, and you expect eve to be completely the way it was in 03 even though the game is growing and getting better than it ever was. I honestly don't understand how CCP puts up with this community anymore, but I do know they are getting tired of the negative crowd as well. I can hear it in their tone every time they release public statements how frustrated with you all they are. This is a company who bends over backwards to please its community. But the second they make a decision to increase cash flow for them, you all flip out about it. Do you all really believe they made eve to cure cancer? They are a business! Seriously, grow the **** up

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tl;dr

The game is not the sandbox it once was. It is nowhere near the sandbox it was projected to be.

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Originally by: Delianora

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You are so wrong...

They have changed hundreds of things that make eve less of a sandbox than it was...

Here is one...

Back in the day, you could have as many wardeclares as u wanted --u just paid the isk...

The idea in the sandbox was something like this!!!!
first one war dec 50mil
then 100
then 200
then 400
then 800
then 1.6bil

Well one amazing player, Pitboss, made a wardeclare merc corp in the "sandbox"

Then he got a lot of people together to pay up

Then he ran 5 10 20

thirty wardeclares!!!!!!!!!!!

Soon almost every major operation was fighting in hi sec all day, everyday!

The pvp was amazing, the ganking, the escort fleets, the non stop combat...

Industry was humming NON stop--people running hisec battleship manufacturing corps and fitting corps, "Quick, i need 40 battleships every day for two weeks, and I need them yesterday!"

Then that style of the "sandbox" was removed...

There are dozens and dozens of stories like that where the "sandbox" is removed...

Anyway, I'm just making a point that your post is flawed and wrong--next argument...

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Originally by: Dopesick

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Helena, you're trying very hard to get an angered response from me. I'm not angry. I'm disappointed. As stated before, this game is not the sandbox it used to be. It is not in a place remotely close to where most of us thought it would be 7-8 years ago.

I was going to write a lengthy response. You're not worth the effort.

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Originally by: Delianora

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You are so wrong...

They have changed hundreds of things that make eve less of a sandbox than it was...

Here is one...

Back in the day, you could have as many wardeclares as u wanted --u just paid the isk...

The idea in the sandbox was something like this!!!!
first one war dec 50mil
then 100
then 200
then 400
then 800
then 1.6bil

Well one amazing player, Pitboss, made a wardeclare merc corp in the "sandbox"

Then he got a lot of people together to pay up

Then he ran 5 10 20

thirty wardeclares!!!!!!!!!!!

Soon almost every major operation was fighting in hi sec all day, everyday!

The pvp was amazing, the ganking, the escort fleets, the non stop combat...

Industry was humming NON stop--people running hisec battleship manufacturing corps and fitting corps, "Quick, i need 40 battleships every day for two weeks, and I need them yesterday!"

Then that style of the "sandbox" was removed...

There are dozens and dozens of stories like that where the "sandbox" is removed...

Anyway, I'm just making a point that your post is flawed and wrong--next argument...

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Originally by: Mendolus

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Edited by: Mendolus on 23/08/2011 20:08:39

Originally by: M5 Tuttle

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@Mendolus

The fact that you see things in shades of grey and are able to point out where I'm wrong without coming off like a typical forum nerd is refreshing. Thanks for the insight.

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No probs, I hope your experiences here in the future are a bit less caustic than they may first appear, I guarantee you there are still lots of good people in the game itself, and good times to be had by newer players such as yourself. You just have to kind of accept the fact that the game is getting a bit older, so some of the original vision of the game is now lost on a wide swath of its player base, which makes them seem out of touch or inflammatory simply because they have this idea of the game that does not live up to the reality of the game.

EVE was never the most amazing MMO on its own two feet as people want to believe or clamor to CCP that they somehow ruined it from being thus. EVE was always just good enough that its players could fill in the blanks on their own. There was just enough technical feats and marvels in the game to let us all run amok and drive the content ourselves. As time goes on and those people I was referring to that drove the game content on their own, have since left in relatively alarming numbers, you now find mostly followers who need... well something to follow. They then look to the game, and to the developers, and suddenly nothing else but perfection will suffice. EVE was never perfect, and never will be perfect, and while CCP has made more mistakes than not in the past few years, so have its subscribers, if not by volition, but more by getting lost somewhere along the way.

People made this game what it is is, you will see some players trying desperately to drive this point home to CCP again and again as if it were reason enough for CCP to listen to their every whim. The problem is there are far less of those people here now than there were before. So you have a ton of angry nerds raging that no one is here to lead them into the next chapter of the game, so they rage at the developers instead, blaming the developers for everything you can imagine.

Now, CCP has made some glaring errors yes, but the game itself, has not actually changed much in the past few years with the exception of the Dominion release, most of it is business as usual, but this is also a rallying point for people clamoring that CCP has all but forgotten the spaceships in a spaceship game. Now, I withhold judgment personally on this issue because I have every understanding that CCP not only had a dream to build the ultimate and complete science fiction masterpiece, and that they are still trying to do so, but only people who have been around long enough to see this attempt and understand, and maybe even forgive, CCP for reaching too high, are going to be mostly accepting of the this fact. CCP does what CCP does, we are along for the ride here, this is one of the only MMO companies you will find that allows their player base so much wide and encompassing roles in the game itself, without leading them hand and foot from one expansion to the next.

I could go on and on about Blizzard promising that Cata would bring back the challenge to Warcraft rather than continue to make it a casual player heaven of raid gear falling from the sky and then very subtly doubling back on that promise only six months after the expansion, but I will just leave it at that.

CCP is neither perfect nor terrible, but somewhere in between, and so long as I can logon to the game, shoot some ****, and drink a beer while talking to my friends over killmails, I will be happy.

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Originally by: Delianora

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Edited by: Delianora on 23/08/2011 20:13:37
I was just replying to the post above that said

"CCP has never destroyed the sandbox"

I replied with a story that said that they DO destroy the sandbox.

Eve was built to quote the devs "as a cold, harsh universe" and that is by "design"

When Pitboss and HUNDREDS of other players contributed to maxing out wardecs they were following in exactly what they were promised by the coders and creators of this game. However, you, ---you just want what you want--which apparently is the "cheeto" version of eve with easy to swallow ingrediants and nothing spicy about it...

What sounds like in your version of the more popular eve is all the crap "popular" games out there...

We have millions on farmville--OK, so now eve is farmville in space, PI, cheap ice, POS's everywhere
We have millions on wow--OK, so now eve is WOW in space--epic mounts like MOMS everywhere, unlimited wallets, endless PVE with zero risk, lots of bling...

EVE is a niche game, and your argument that it needs to have "broader" appeal is ipso facto FALSE because that destroys the definition of the niche game...

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Originally by: Helena Vexar

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I agree with many of your points, but the people saying they are leaving always come back. The statistical fact is that EVE has gone UP in subs every year, and never dropped in a year. So I don't think the people *****ing make up the majority, or they always come back.

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Originally by: Delianora

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Edited by: Delianora on 23/08/2011 21:02:01
Helena you said, "Eve will always be a niche game, and I love that about it. But I also would like to see eve become bigger and have more people to play with."

Yet, that too is a bit flawed. You said. "I love that 2 plus 2 is four, but I would like to see it bigger. How come 2 plus 2 cant be five?"

Because it destroys two plus two, that's why!

I do understand you. EVE has a niche game needs to thrive in its niche... something that MMO experts call the "churn rate". Now EVE has never released that statistic, and I am not going to ask them...

Basicly the churn rate is something like this...

Base rate of a game:

100000 accounts...

20000 people try it a month, 15000 quit, net add 60000 at the end of the year...

Of the original 100000, 20% quit, so minus 20000... end of the year for a game--140000 accounts

I dunno what the churn rate for eve is, but I do know the game is alot emptier.

1) bots dont have the feel of real people...
empty because there is less cooperative play, fewer fleets, fewer people on vent/ts, fewer targets, fewer ops, less care about ops, less strategic direction, less "on call fleets"
coupled with this--more people in chat, more people docking/cloaking, more people playing solo, more people logging in just to "check if anything is going on"

2) the proliferation of "solo alt-driven activities"
I'm just checking my alt, I'm just doing R and D on my alt, I'm just cloaking on my alt, "I'm not going to scout, I will log in an alt and check,

3) The use of bots
ratters in local, miners in local, market alts/bots in local... they dont interact and feel like computer NPCS...

So all the people who play the numbers game are partially RIGHT--there are LOTS OF PEOPLE online--there is NOT a catastrophic drop off of people on line--there is a drop off, but not a total collapse...

BUT WHO is online? All these people playing solo, all these people NOT playing, and all these bots...

So at what point does the system totally collaspe? I dunno yet.

SO I hear all the people who want MORE people, but we need more COOPERATIVE people.

Expanding the game like this----> wont work...

300000 accounts
"major nex micro transaction stuff"
-50000 accounts
+ 15000 wow new accounts per month
-10000 vet accounts per month
+power of two, restock ur bot accounts +10000

So what you get is a total demographic shift that leaves vet players so jaded and so "blah"--sure the numbers hold up, but at what cost and to what end? I think a lot of us just are watching in morbid fascination with the hope that CCP will right itself and not collapse.

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