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malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 04:42:00 - [1]
 

The bot I'm talking about is included e.g. in EVE Mentat.

How it works:
1) start EVE Mentat and its IGB addon
2) open the local webpage created by EVE Mentat in IGB and click single button to start the bot
3) bot goes through all the items you are trading with and exports local market orders for each item. This can take hours and thousands of clicks, but bot does all the work while you can leave the computer and come back later.
4) you can now use all the exported data in EVE Mentat to analyze it.

I've heard that this bot is used by other trading programs also, and I've seen claims that GMs have said it is allowed.

Is it really true that CCP allows some bots while disallowing others?

daddys helper
Posted - 2011.08.18 04:49:00 - [2]
 

are you serious?

its data mining, the same stinking thing you do with the API
it can't place sell orders for you, it can't manipulate the market.

all it can do is pull data from eve.

please delete this post and biomass your character

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 05:01:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: malaire on 18/08/2011 05:15:39
Originally by: daddys helper
are you serious?

its data mining, the same stinking thing you do with the API
it can't place sell orders for you, it can't manipulate the market.

all it can do is pull data from eve.

please delete this post and biomass your character

So you dont understand the importance of data mining?
This particular info (local market orders) can't be exported via API, and is extremely important for market analysing.

edit:
Just to stress the importance of this: With only 64 accounts player/corp/alliance could use this kind of bot to create database of all market orders from all 64 regions, and keep it uptodate. This would be huge advantage since there is no way ingame to compare market prices across all regions.

Judge Ment
BOOM BOOM POW
Posted - 2011.08.18 05:12:00 - [4]
 

Dude CCP Is marketing EVE ONLINE.. and scamming u all :)


Trolling a good thread, one at a time

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2011.08.18 05:40:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: malaire
Edited by: malaire on 18/08/2011 05:15:39
Originally by: daddys helper
are you serious?

its data mining, the same stinking thing you do with the API
it can't place sell orders for you, it can't manipulate the market.

all it can do is pull data from eve.

please delete this post and biomass your character

So you dont understand the importance of data mining?
This particular info (local market orders) can't be exported via API, and is extremely important for market analysing.

edit:
Just to stress the importance of this: With only 64 accounts player/corp/alliance could use this kind of bot to create database of all market orders from all 64 regions, and keep it uptodate. This would be huge advantage since there is no way ingame to compare market prices across all regions.


Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports.

Monstress
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:01:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: malaire
The bot I'm talking about is included e.g. in EVE Mentat.

How it works:
1) start EVE Mentat and its IGB addon
2) open the local webpage created by EVE Mentat in IGB and click single button to start the bot
3) bot goes through all the items you are trading with and exports local market orders for each item. This can take hours and thousands of clicks, but bot does all the work while you can leave the computer and come back later.
4) you can now use all the exported data in EVE Mentat to analyze it.

I've heard that this bot is used by other trading programs also, and I've seen claims that GMs have said it is allowed.

Is it really true that CCP allows some bots while disallowing others?


The bot doesn't actually do any trading for you or on-screen recognition to manipulate your client in any way. Sounds like all it does is make use of the IGB JavaScript API to "View Market Details" of all known market items to grab a snapshot of the prices for your current region.

Don't see anything wrong with that.

Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar
Nomadic Asylum
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:05:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Brooks Puuntai on 18/08/2011 06:05:46
Its not a bot its a tool for data mining. It just simplifies the process. Same way the Evemon will calculate the best training path or attributes. The program doesn't actually automate the trading process itself.


And also I'm very ****ed they released this AFTER I stopped doing trading. Mad

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:06:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports.

That is true, however external application which creates the webpage can control in which order items are checked. If you only have 100 items of high importance, you could update them every few minutes. And then update other items every few hours.

If this really is allowed, it still is huge advantage. Using API you can only check your own orders, and only once per hour I think. Using this javascript-bot you can check 30 orders per minute. You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order.

Thart
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:09:00 - [9]
 

EVE Mentat just scans market related to your active orders.
Here is video with demonstration how it works.
Implemented using java script functions provided by CCP. Nothing criminal.

Monstress
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:12:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: malaire
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports.

That is true, however external application which creates the webpage can control in which order items are checked. If you only have 100 items of high importance, you could update them every few minutes. And then update other items every few hours.

If this really is allowed, it still is huge advantage. Using API you can only check your own orders, and only once per hour I think. Using this javascript-bot you can check 30 orders per minute. You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order.



I'm not sure it's even possible to distinguish the ownership of orders obtained from whatever data is gathered from the market details. I suppose maybe it would be possible if you cross reference the order IDs to orders in your wallet API.

I've never checked this out, but it certainly is an interesting point worth exploring.

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:13:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
Its not a bot its a tool for data mining. It just simplifies the process. Same way the Evemon will calculate the best training path or attributes. The program doesn't actually automate the trading process itself.

Evemon cant tell you when someone makes better order than your order. This bot can.

Just think about it:
You start this bot with appropriate external application and leave it running. When someone makes better order than what you have, you get email/SMS notification to your cellphone and then you come to your computer, update your order, and leave bot running while you do something else.

You could be doing whatever you want, just as long as you have quick access to your computer which runs EVE, to update orders whenever you get notification that order needs updating.

This is completely different what traders normally needs to do, i.e. manually be present on computer and check for competitors updating their orders.

Thart
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:17:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Monstress
I'm not sure it's even possible to distinguish the ownership of orders obtained from whatever data is gathered from the market details. I suppose maybe it would be possible if you cross reference the order IDs to orders in your wallet API.

I've never checked this out, but it certainly is an interesting point worth exploring.

It's quite possible to lookup your own orders in market data. They have the same IDs. But you cannot distinguish the ownership of the rest orders.

Monstress
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:23:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Thart

It's quite possible to lookup your own orders in market data. They have the same IDs. But you cannot distinguish the ownership of the rest orders.


Hah, that's awesome. Thanks for clearing that up :)

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:34:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Monstress
Originally by: Thart

It's quite possible to lookup your own orders in market data. They have the same IDs. But you cannot distinguish the ownership of the rest orders.


Hah, that's awesome. Thanks for clearing that up :)

Hey, dont get any ideas... This botting needs to be banned, not exploited. Sad

Thart
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.08.18 06:56:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Thart on 18/08/2011 07:04:11
malaire, do you use market aggregation services such as EVE-central and others?
Most of them along with cache reading tool use web-based continuos scanners. They will not work properly without such functionality.

From the other side I guess the real trade bots are written with more complex technologies, and java script based market browsing makes a really small contribution to the whole system.

I think you have started your protest with the wrong direction :)

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:08:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Thart
malaire, do you use market aggregation services such as EVE-central and others?
Most of them along with cache reading tool use web-based continuos scanners. They will not work properly without such functionality.

From the other side I guess the real trade bots are written with more complex technologies, and java script based market browsing makes a really small contribution to the whole system.

I think you have started your protest from the wrong side :)

Any use of bots should be banned, even for "usefull" sites like EVE-central. If that means no market aggregation sites, then so be it.

Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar
Nomadic Asylum
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:14:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Brooks Puuntai on 18/08/2011 07:14:07
So long as it doesn't directly interact with the game, I don't really see what the issue is. All its doing is parsing the same information you can do yourself... Just faster

Thart
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:16:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: malaire
Any use of bots should be banned, even for "usefull" sites like EVE-central. If that means no market aggregation sites, then so be it.

Some technologies cannot be supressed.
Breaking a small (and useful for most players!) part of them doesn't make sense.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:16:00 - [19]
 

if in doubt - petition it

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:51:00 - [20]
 

Nothing illegal in reading the cache files.

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: RaTTuS
if in doubt - petition it

As I mentioned in OP, I've seen claims that this has been petitioned and GMs have approved this - but just to be sure I did make a petition.

If this is allowed, then I'm going to make proof-of-concept bot which does automatic notifications, to make it clear how stupid it is to allow this.

And if this has never been allowed, then according to rules, creator of e.g. EVE Mentat and all other programs using this exploit should be permabanned, and all users of such programs should get at least 14 day ban (including me, since I did test EVE Mentat shortly).

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:56:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: dexington
Nothing illegal in reading the cache files.

Just reading cache files isn't the problem. But when combined with javascript which automatically adds new information to cache without player being present on computer - that is a problem.

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:04:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: malaire
Originally by: dexington
Nothing illegal in reading the cache files.

Just reading cache files isn't the problem. But when combined with javascript which automatically adds new information to cache without player being present on computer - that is a problem.


As long as the player is the one updating the market orders it's okay.

Elanor Gaiser
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:04:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: malaire
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports.

That is true, however external application which creates the webpage can control in which order items are checked. If you only have 100 items of high importance, you could update them every few minutes. And then update other items every few hours.

If this really is allowed, it still is huge advantage. Using API you can only check your own orders, and only once per hour I think. Using this javascript-bot you can check 30 orders per minute. You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order.



Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data.

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:39:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Elanor Gaiser
Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data.

And surely RL miner would have automated mining vessels. But in EVE mining bots are not allowed.

Market bots should not be allowed either, even if it does only 70% of the work. (And for some items, checking whether competitors have updated their orders can be more work than actually updating the orders, especially if you want to update within few minutes after competitor, and orders are updated rarely, e.g. once per day.)

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.18 08:48:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Thart
Originally by: malaire
Any use of bots should be banned, even for "usefull" sites like EVE-central. If that means no market aggregation sites, then so be it.

Some technologies cannot be supressed.
Breaking a small (and useful for most players!) part of them doesn't make sense.

There are reasons for EVE being divided into several regions, and that you can't see market orders for other regions than your local region.

In my opinion automated market aggregation sites do not belong to EVE.

Thart
U.K.R.A.I.N.E
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:08:00 - [27]
 

It seems that this is a kind of religious bias.
People never stop using tools which makes EVE better (I don't mean illegal tools).
Keep wasting your time.

Scoutar II
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:19:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Scoutar II on 18/08/2011 09:19:55

SkuxNZ
Blue Republic
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:21:00 - [29]
 

^ wrong char

Originally by: malaire
Originally by: dexington
Nothing illegal in reading the cache files.

Just reading cache files isn't the problem. But when combined with javascript which automatically adds new information to cache without player being present on computer - that is a problem.


So it's the fault of EVE Mentat that people could abuse it? It's similar to file sharing (eg. torrents), the actual software and technology is perfectly legal, but how some people choose to use it not so much. You can't ban everything on the assumption it -could- be used negatively, when plenty of people may be using it legitimately.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:31:00 - [30]
 

i guess it would be good to get GM response here. This is really interesting question what is "bot" and what it "helping tool".

For example: tool for scanning local for presence of neutrals of reds. Is it bot? I'm pretty sure almost 100% of players will say so. But this is "just a helper tool" like any market scanning utilities Eve players use. So would be good to get strong and clear rules to determine exact kind of this "little helper tool".


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