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CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.15 10:54:00 - [1]
 

This set of threads exist to collect feedback for the separate parts of the devblog "Nullsec Development: Design Goals", which can be found here.


This thread is about: Intel


Please read the blog and give specific feedback on this area of the blog. The more precise, reasoned and comprehensive you can be, the better we can utilize your feedback Smile

Enkill Eridos
Draconian Enforcers Available To Hire
Property Management Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.15 11:19:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Enkill Eridos on 15/08/2011 11:20:23
I like the idea of intel gathering being a little more of an active thing you can do. Like launching a probe in a system for an hour or two and will eve mail you how many people jump in at a level 1 skill..at level v that probe should eve mail you a report of who jumped where and how. I think that this probe should be scannable, and the higher the pilots skill in a new skill called Intel Gathering or something similar. Or alternatively a scanning module that can only be used on a covert ops frigate (not the sb, but the scanning one for those who don't know the difference.) giving that class of skill a little more purpose than a scanner prober.

The random deployable intel gathering device is an interesting idea, I think it should be scannable if made mobile and eve mail you jump information, at higher skills like above what kinds of ships that jumped in and the corp/alliance and any activities they did.

All of these should be able to be countered either another deployable object or a ship mod. I think the ship mod would cut any foreseeable lag problems a deployable object may cause. These things should also be equally useful both in known and unknown space.

Making local update at a delayed rate would balance it out. Or allow one of these skills be able to allow a player to put out a beacon and remove an automatic local from npc null sec and make it so that local is only possible if a player corp puts out an intel device and only that corp/alliance can see local. This idea would actually fill in the gaps taking out local would provide. Mainly because there is really no other way to gather intelligence other than scan down everything with probes in the hopes of knowing what is in the system with you. A deployable object that only lasts for a certain amount of days would make intelligence gathering and removing local a little more relevant in eve imo.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:54:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 15/08/2011 15:11:43
Originally by: Enkill Eridos
Edited by: Enkill Eridos on 15/08/2011 11:20:23
I like the idea of intel gathering being a little more of an active thing you can do. Like launching a probe in a system for an hour or two and will eve mail you how many people jump in at a level 1 skill..at level v that probe should eve mail you a report of who jumped where and how. I think that this probe should be scannable, and the higher the pilots skill in a new skill called Intel Gathering or something similar. Or alternatively a scanning module that can only be used on a covert ops frigate (not the sb, but the scanning one for those who don't know the difference.) giving that class of skill a little more purpose than a scanner prober.

The random deployable intel gathering device is an interesting idea, I think it should be scannable if made mobile and eve mail you jump information, at higher skills like above what kinds of ships that jumped in and the corp/alliance and any activities they did.

All of these should be able to be countered either another deployable object or a ship mod. I think the ship mod would cut any foreseeable lag problems a deployable object may cause. These things should also be equally useful both in known and unknown space.

Making local update at a delayed rate would balance it out. Or allow one of these skills be able to allow a player to put out a beacon and remove an automatic local from npc null sec and make it so that local is only possible if a player corp puts out an intel device and only that corp/alliance can see local. This idea would actually fill in the gaps taking out local would provide. Mainly because there is really no other way to gather intelligence other than scan down everything with probes in the hopes of knowing what is in the system with you. A deployable object that only lasts for a certain amount of days would make intelligence gathering and removing local a little more relevant in eve imo.


I quite like this idea, making intel gather over time. Maybe at 15 minutes a time, adding more and more information, up to a limit of what we have now. You need to work for this in some way, maybe activating the probe to gather the intel for that 15 minute period.

Local at the moment gives far to much instant intel on people and even though I do like the status quo, I can see that this is somewhat overpowered.

Local is a hard mechanic to change. On one hand we should work harder for the information we want, but on the other we shouldn't have to click every 2 seconds to get it. There should be a balance and maybe 15 minutes is that balance.

charmedangel101
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:37:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: charmedangel101 on 15/08/2011 13:39:03
the goal is to remove local right ?

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:43:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 15/08/2011 14:02:19

what about a regional/constellation probe system giving some rough infos, that need others guys to search for more precise stuff ?

my knowledge on nullsec is a bit limited, but the intel chan give infos on who was seen on x system of the region (if people tell the others of course), meaning people can track a bit hostiles, simply by looking at local.
here i'm suggesting a tool that would give about the same informations, but by being active:

i'm suggesting a system where you can still know that something is wrong, but not simply by looking at the chat, by probing the constellation/region with a special probe, that will tell you that something was up, but with less details, but enough to transfer the information to others guys on the good places who specialized on more detailed information

i suppose system would need to filter blues.

they would have guy(s) who probe the whole region
who send results to guys who probe x y z constellations
who send results to guys on local, who will check with their "eyes" (either check stargate / d-scan, or probe as normal the system)

multiple layers, each needing the others.
* the results may give you what size of ships are moving ("seems it was something big ; i had clear results", "results were pretty bad, must be a pretty small and speedy thing")
* results can give you the rough position of the thing, precise enough to ask the others intel guys to check, but without giving you the system. (like when you probe but only get a big red ball)
* results would not be real time, it would be like maybe what we see was 2mn ago, maybe it was 15mn ago.

the probe give informations on a pretty big thing, so it can't be precise, it's the work on the local teams to be precise. the big thing only tell them that they have works, and give them a perimeter to search.

for lore issues, the probe would track radioactive emission from the warp drive, or something like that

quick example :

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

we don't know on which system the hostile was seen, but we know he's on one of these.
results would tell us if it's a ship alone or more, and if it's a small or big one. but we don't know what type exactly. there may also be error reading, like for example we see a big thing, and in fact it's not a batteklships, but a small fleet of cov ops (one big ships or a few small ships may read about the same thing, as we have issue knowing what type of site we probe with the current system)
result would be from the last 15mn or so

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:06:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Edited by: Mag''s on 15/08/2011 13:15:13
Originally by: Enkill Eridos
Edited by: Enkill Eridos on 15/08/2011 11:20:23
I like the idea of intel gathering being a little more of an active thing you can do. Like launching a probe in a system for an hour or two and will eve mail you how many people jump in at a level 1 skill..at level v that probe should eve mail you a report of who jumped where and how. I think that this probe should be scannable, and the higher the pilots skill in a new skill called Intel Gathering or something similar. Or alternatively a scanning module that can only be used on a covert ops frigate (not the sb, but the scanning one for those who don't know the difference.) giving that class of skill a little more purpose than a scanner prober.

The random deployable intel gathering device is an interesting idea, I think it should be scannable if made mobile and eve mail you jump information, at higher skills like above what kinds of ships that jumped in and the corp/alliance and any activities they did.

All of these should be able to be countered either another deployable object or a ship mod. I think the ship mod would cut any foreseeable lag problems a deployable object may cause. These things should also be equally useful both in known and unknown space.

Making local update at a delayed rate would balance it out. Or allow one of these skills be able to allow a player to put out a beacon and remove an automatic local from npc null sec and make it so that local is only possible if a player corp puts out an intel device and only that corp/alliance can see local. This idea would actually fill in the gaps taking out local would provide. Mainly because there is really no other way to gather intelligence other than scan down everything with probes in the hopes of knowing what is in the system with you. A deployable object that only lasts for a certain amount of days would make intelligence gathering and removing local a little more relevant in eve imo.


I quite like this idea, making intel gather over time. Maybe at 15 minutes a time, adding more and more information, up to a limit of what we have now. You need to work for this in some way, maybe activating the probe to gather the intel for that 15 minute period.

Local at the moment gives far to much instant intel on people and even though I do like the status quo, I can see that this is somewhat overpowered.

Local is a hard mechanic to change. On one hand we should work harder for the information we want, but on the other we should have to click every 2 seconds to get it. There should be a balance and maybe 15 minutes is that balance.


Having to turn it into a click-fest will make things that much more grinding. While instant local is without a doubt broken, why not delay the appearance of a player in local until the initial jump-in cloak is gone? Delayed mode would just ruin the tradition of "****ting up local." I shouldn't be able to pass through a system full of people unnoticed.

Siena Petrucis
Caldari
Jelly Kings
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:34:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Siena Petrucis on 15/08/2011 14:34:21
Make it worthwhile to spy upon the movement of enemy caps by slowing them down, see:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1565829&page=1#13

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:38:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Janos Saal on 15/08/2011 15:11:57
So we have (broadly) two kinds of intel gathering in eve right now. There's the up-to-the-second tactical scouts, who sit on gates and watch reds moving around, whether for fun, or to feed info to a fleet commander, and there's the time-insensitive "strategic" intel gathering - probing down and reporting the location and status of enemy assets such as pos towers, ihubs or whatever.
Both kinds of intel gathering are horribly inefficient and can be really mind-numbing for both the scouts and the FCs who may rely on their reports.

For the first kind (the scouts that watch gates and report movements to FCs in the field) it's inefficient and overhwelming. If you're an FC and you have three or four scouts all feeding you reports from different systems it can be a nightmare to keep track of that info while actually commanding your fleet.

If you're a scout who wants to go out and hunt down strategic assets the intel you gather is time-insensitive in that it won't often be acted upon immediately, and so the real task is recording and storing the intel for later use. You're thus confronted with the horrifying task of actually recording the info you've gathered. If you're lucky your might be in an alliance with a webform or something where you can click a few boxes. If you're unlucky you'll have to type up a text document with a list of all the modules and their status before mailing that to whoever asked for it (they'll never read it).

So those are the problems as I see them. How about solutions?
First, we need to stop punishing people. sitting cloaked on a gate for three hours is not fun. Typing up lists of pos modules isn't fun. Being an FC recieving uncondensed scout reports probably isn't fun either. Give us modules in game to make these jobs less painful, and give us more things to do.

If I'm a scout in the field, reporting on enemy movements, don't make me type **** or compete with everybody else for the FC's attention. Give me the ability to open a shiny tactical map of my region, click a few buttons, and have the location of the reds I'm reporting show visually on that map. This would be enormous help to everybody, especially the FC who has less voices clamouring in his ear.
Give various access levels for the map so that rank and file members can only view reported enemy activity, while FCs and directors can view the location of friendlies, and specified individuals (scouts) can alter the map to report enemy activity.

If I'm scouting for structures deep inside enemy territory, give me tools to do that, and allow me to efficiently store this information. Give me an expensive, short ranged, high-slot scanning device that can only be equipped by covert ops, and which has the sole purpose of generating a list of all modules on a POS when I'm within 50km of that structure. Then give me the ability to post that info directly to the tactical map of that region, so that the FC can click on that system and view all the delicious info I gathered for him. Have the map show a date and timestamp for all info posted, so we can know at a glance where our intel needs updating.
We still have to fly there, take the risks and gather the intel. It's just that now that last part isn't so soul-crushingly boring.

Basically stop making my life hell.


Siena Petrucis
Caldari
Jelly Kings
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:45:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Janos Saal
... Basically stop making my life hell.


+1 to all you said

Dwindlehop
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:59:00 - [10]
 

I would love a game mechanic way of broadcasting my location so as to provoke a fight. The intel gathered would just be a bonus.

Some intel I have longed for but have difficulty acquiring today: gate activation patterns (moving fast or slow? in which direction? from which region? bunched up? with a scout? with bait?); fleet warp vectors (where are they headed?); jump bridge activations; fleet subwarp vectors (where are they aligning?); fleet fits (are they long range, short range, armor, shield); where are targets (map statistics give locations of static concentrations of pilots, but moving fleets have no way to be located except by blundering into them); and where in space is the ship I want to shoot, before I reveal any of my forces to that ship.

Standard operating procedure for small combat fleets is to fly with an interceptor or other scout ship to provide intel without dying. Some entities prefer recons or interdiction field nullified T3 ships as scouts. The point is, it is generally trivial to identify scouts and know you should be looking for the fleet accompanying the scout. Please make the intel gathering mechanic either behavioral or a role one fits for, not a ship class we must bring to a fight to get intel. Predictable outcomes are boring.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:11:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Andski
Originally by: Mag's
I quite like this idea, making intel gather over time. Maybe at 15 minutes a time, adding more and more information, up to a limit of what we have now. You need to work for this in some way, maybe activating the probe to gather the intel for that 15 minute period.

Local at the moment gives far to much instant intel on people and even though I do like the status quo, I can see that this is somewhat overpowered.

Local is a hard mechanic to change. On one hand we should work harder for the information we want, but on the other we should have to click every 2 seconds to get it. There should be a balance and maybe 15 minutes is that balance.


Having to turn it into a click-fest will make things that much more grinding. While instant local is without a doubt broken, why not delay the appearance of a player in local until the initial jump-in cloak is gone? Delayed mode would just ruin the tradition of "****ting up local." I shouldn't be able to pass through a system full of people unnoticed.
Sorry I meant to type 'shouldn't' I've now fixed my typo. Embarassed

Demo Tiger
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:30:00 - [12]
 

Here's my two cents.

Intel comes in four flavors.

1. Ratters/Miners (in 0.0) wanting to know what's coming their way
2. Fleets looking for fleets to engage
3. Massive battles wanting to know incoming ship types and numbers
4. Keeping your information secret

For 1.
This needs to be reasonably feasible, or the income of ratting/mining needs to be boosted, in order to pay those on intel/security detail. As prices are right now, a miner that has to split their cut 2 ways would be better off mining veldspar in empire. (bistot at about 200 isk/m3, veldspar around 100 isk/m3). Of course, alliances will need to figure their own way to pay the "day-to-day" intel gathering pilots.

My biggest concern with this is that first, only dead-end systems will be used for ratting, and they will be "secured" by a series of large mobile warp disruptors and one cloaky ship watching it. (although several alliances already do this, it makes all non-dead-end systems harder to secure, and these are typically less lucrative)

For 2.
Intel needs to be gathered on a larger basis than local system. Perhaps constellation level. A lot of details in this is really unnecessary, perhaps be able to detect raw number of pilots in space and what system.

For 3.
The location and time of a fight is known (there's a sov piece coming out of reinforced at a known time). Usually a covops ship watching the incoming gates handles this. (or watching their titans) This doesn't really need to be changed.

For 4.
This is a tough one. It needs to be feasible for counter-counter action too. A good intel pilot should be able to gather that intel has been disrupted and be able to find where the disruption is coming from, and a small gang (5-10 BC's) should be able to undo the intel disruption. I can see this being great for small gang bait tactics, but some mechanic has to be in place to prevent abuse.


With all of these, I see a great way of creating a role for the Black-ops class of battleships. (that currently have one small niche role, making them the least flown ships in new eden). Or the entire line of covert ships (covops frigs, recon cruisers, and black ops battleships)

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:35:00 - [13]
 

Instant Local goes against everything you've written about 0.0 intel design goals. Switch it to delayed mode and give us some real intel tools:

- Upgrade the ship d-scan to have passive and active modes to add some range/detectability tradeoffs, and automate it's basic functions.

- Design a dedicated intel sharing system that allows for handing off of scan data between gang mates or to a chat channel.

- Perhaps allow for POS structures and outposts to scan at some limited range and share this data.

- Add some detectability topology to star systems with celestials affecting the scan results. For examples allow hiding behind planets, or having some reason to 'come in from the sun'.

- Cloaking will need to be balanced for this to work. Some way to detect the 'cloak signature' at the very least, and possibly limiting interaction with environment (like scanning, etc.) while cloaked.

Rocinantae
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:38:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Rocinantae on 15/08/2011 15:47:44
Over the time I spent in Agony Unleashed my main job was reconnoitering when the alliance would move to a different region. I also would gather info on specific systems as directed by alliance leadership. As it stands now this is very boring work and only a patient few will do it. I would call for volunteers and would get quite few when the word "intel" was mentioned. But once they found out how mundane work it was they quickly left.

I was lucky to have a few tools for a while.

One was a google doc form to spreadsheet survey. Basically you would go to x system and record who what and when. This would dump to a spreadsheet that leadership could look at and see activity in the area over time. The ultimate failing of this tool is pvprs dont like to sit and data mine. And you need more people using this tool to get enough data to give a good picture for leadership to use. Its also an out of game tool and very clumsy. Something more refined should be built into the game for specialist like me to use. Having the ability to place some kind of sensor/probe in a system would be ideal. A sensible alternative would be to make the intel gatherers job easier. Also make that intel easier for leadership to access/use.

The various interactive "drawing" tools on the net are another intel tool that should be built into eve so that there is some actual command and control for fleets. We had a tool that basically put a dotlan map of a region as a backround. I then could place and move an icon on the map and assign text/color to it to represent fleets/structures that I could move around as needed. Downsides to this is that someone had to want to operate it. It was out of game so having to alt tab to a map is inconvenient to alot of fcs. Also being out of game I would have to relay info to fcs which is distracting to some. Im hoping this kind of tool will be built into Incarna. Like a navy command and control map like you see in ships.

One last tool we had was a pos intel tool. Anyone who has had to go gather intel on poses knows how incredibly boring that is. Screen shots don't do. The text is small and it usually takes a couple pics. Then you have to get them to people. With the pos intel tool you had drop down boxes. I could pick what kind of tower then assign modules to it. The tool would then generate a link I could copy to an intel forum for leadership to use. The downside to this tool is that it had to be updated with each Eve patch. We lost the dev to this tool which is why its not used anymore.

These tools are all not being used by Agony anymore. They take a lot of patience and sometimes were clumsy and frustrating to use. I would concentrate on making the gathering, storage, and ease of viewing intel a priority. New ships, sensors, probes would be nice. But the use of there data still has to be efficient.

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:44:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Janos Saal on 15/08/2011 15:45:07
Originally by: Rocinantae
I would call for volunteers and would get quite few when the word "intel" was mentioned. But once they found out how mundane work it was the quickly left.


I feel your pain, brother. :brofist:
+1 to everything.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:48:00 - [16]
 

The blog danced all around the idea of removing local without actually stating it. I've posted my thoughts on the matter before. Here's a quick synapsis:

1) Different ships/races should have different range d-scanners. Destroyers, for example, might have 30AU range while cruisers have the ususal 14.4AU.
2) D-scanner is more user friendly. You can toggle it on and it shows as a HUD. You see red enemy dots floating at an asteroid field rather then scanning each individual field.
3) Everyone has a personalized local that corresponds to the range of their D-scanner.
4) Everyon'e local can be expanded by probes or intel investments as they upgrade systems. High sec and low sec would already come with intel upgrades so there would be no or little change there.

That's my 2 isk in a nutshell.

Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:50:00 - [17]
 

intel should not be freely available. Gathering intel has to be an active task.

My solution: set the 0.0 localchat to delayed mode and don't show the players until they speak out in chat. Only thing freely visible should be the amount of players in the system, which makes sense as there's gates registering the amount compared to wormholes that don't.
This would also make spamming the directional scanner unnecessary reducing the amount of stress for the servers.

If you want to see who's entering or leaving then you should be required to place someone on the gate to watch, if the entering players are hostile or friendly. Being solo in 0.0, farming NPCs should not come without risks, and there's no risk if you see who exactly enters the systems as freely available information.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:55:00 - [18]
 

I once again squarely point to Planetside as a good decent enough illustration about how intel can be done in a fun way.

Basically, PS had a number of intel tools, on a strategical, operational and tactical level that intermingled and gave both grunts and commanders something to look at, think about, and analyse, and which gave the enemy things to attack and tactics to use to minimise their intel footprint.

On the strategic level, there was a semi-live-updated world map that showed known action hotspots, and which let people (and commanders) know roughly what was happening where. However, there were some fine points to this level of detail, most notably from the way "hotspots" were determined: it was a location where friendly forces attacked enemy forces (and, very importantly, not the other way around), including automated defences. So a sneaky enemy could kill a whole lot of things, but if nothing ever shot back, it wouldn't show up. A more indirect means of intel was to look at the map and see the status of a base and notice how its resources were depleting as a result of various components being shot up, so even the sneaky enemy would leave a track… but a very subtly one where you had to pay attention. Friendly contacts showed up as animated explosions that updated every minute or so — lots of explosions = lots of action.

On an operational level, there was the population number. Originally, just like in EVE, this simply told you how many enemies were around, but that was later changed to a more interesting version: it told you the player ratios, which you could combine with a friendly-player count to estimate the size of the enemy force. There was also the continent-wide Interlink systtem — a type of structure that provided radar capabilities to all connected bases. This made it a prime target for the enemy to disable, steal, or otherwise knock out (including cutting the links that connected it to the rest of the network). Also, bases could tell you roughly how many enemies were around in its zone of influence through the use of some fairly broad categories (a low, medium, and high amount of enemies), and once you reached the highest category, there was no telling how many were actually there, just that it was at least hellalot of them…

On a tactical level, the Interlink radar was also available in the form of easily deployable and easily destroyable short-range sensors and in a mobile scout ship form. Being detected by any of these radar forms made you show up on the radar of every friendly in the area. Even cloaked units were subject to this detection unless they remained almost entirely passive or if they had also equipped some extra space-consuming stealth-boosting equipment. And of course, at this level, there was also simple observation: looking around at all the stuff shooting at you and reporting it back.

It was all about tools and counters, and about being able to interpret a fairly large amount of ambiguous information unless you were talking about your immediate surrounding — the farther away you were from the action, the less you had to work with. The scale might be different, but a lot of these can be more or less directly transplanted, adapted, or otherwise applied to EVE, and some even exist in a limited form already (e.g. the various ship destroyed/players in system stats in the starmap). …and of course, the much-maligned local…

A lot of these services, or even all of them, could (and I'd even say should) be tied to system upgrades that a space owner can deploy and which invaders can try to take out to cover their tracks (but at the same time, the sudden unavailability of this information is in and of itself a hint that something is going on). Of course, this would have to subject to the "easy to disrupt/easy to restore" philosophy discussed in the blog, or it would just be tedious.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.15 16:14:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Janos Saal
Edited by: Janos Saal on 15/08/2011 15:11:57
So we have (broadly) two kinds of intel gathering in eve right now. There's the up-to-the-second tactical scouts, who sit on gates and watch reds moving around, whether for fun, or to feed info to a fleet commander, and there's the time-insensitive "strategic" intel gathering - probing down and reporting the location and status of enemy assets such as pos towers, ihubs or whatever.
Both kinds of intel gathering are horribly inefficient and can be really mind-numbing for both the scouts and the FCs who may rely on their reports.

For the first kind (the scouts that watch gates and report movements to FCs in the field) it's inefficient and overhwelming. If you're an FC and you have three or four scouts all feeding you reports from different systems it can be a nightmare to keep track of that info while actually commanding your fleet.

If you're a scout who wants to go out and hunt down strategic assets the intel you gather is time-insensitive in that it won't often be acted upon immediately, and so the real task is recording and storing the intel for later use. You're thus confronted with the horrifying task of actually recording the info you've gathered. If you're lucky your might be in an alliance with a webform or something where you can click a few boxes. If you're unlucky you'll have to type up a text document with a list of all the modules and their status before mailing that to whoever asked for it (they'll never read it).

So those are the problems as I see them. How about solutions?
First, we need to stop punishing people. sitting cloaked on a gate for three hours is not fun. Typing up lists of pos modules isn't fun. Being an FC recieving uncondensed scout reports probably isn't fun either. Give us modules in game to make these jobs less painful, and give us more things to do.

If I'm a scout in the field, reporting on enemy movements, don't make me type **** or compete with everybody else for the FC's attention. Give me the ability to open a shiny tactical map of my region, click a few buttons, and have the location of the reds I'm reporting show visually on that map. This would be enormous help to everybody, especially the FC who has less voices clamouring in his ear.
Give various access levels for the map so that rank and file members can only view reported enemy activity, while FCs and directors can view the location of friendlies, and specified individuals (scouts) can alter the map to report enemy activity.

If I'm scouting for structures deep inside enemy territory, give me tools to do that, and allow me to efficiently store this information. Give me an expensive, short ranged, high-slot scanning device that can only be equipped by covert ops, and which has the sole purpose of generating a list of all modules on a POS when I'm within 50km of that structure. Then give me the ability to post that info directly to the tactical map of that region, so that the FC can click on that system and view all the delicious info I gathered for him. Have the map show a date and timestamp for all info posted, so we can know at a glance where our intel needs updating.
We still have to fly there, take the risks and gather the intel. It's just that now that last part isn't so soul-crushingly boring.

Basically stop making my life hell.




When we get round to addressing this, one of the first things I want to introduce is a common data format which all tools for intel work (dscanner, overview, scanner mods, probes, map etc etc) can at least export into. The end goal would of course be a proper intel gathering, management, collaboration and dissemination suite within the client, but the first stage I think is allowing player tools access to the raw data (not least because letting players thrash out their own tools is a very efficient way to discover what's actually needed, rather than what seems like it might be neat).

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.15 16:15:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Dwindlehop
I would love a game mechanic way of broadcasting my location so as to provoke a fight. The intel gathered would just be a bonus.

Some intel I have longed for but have difficulty acquiring today: gate activation patterns (moving fast or slow? in which direction? from which region? bunched up? with a scout? with bait?); fleet warp vectors (where are they headed?); jump bridge activations; fleet subwarp vectors (where are they aligning?); fleet fits (are they long range, short range, armor, shield); where are targets (map statistics give locations of static concentrations of pilots, but moving fleets have no way to be located except by blundering into them); and where in space is the ship I want to shoot, before I reveal any of my forces to that ship.

Standard operating procedure for small combat fleets is to fly with an interceptor or other scout ship to provide intel without dying. Some entities prefer recons or interdiction field nullified T3 ships as scouts. The point is, it is generally trivial to identify scouts and know you should be looking for the fleet accompanying the scout. Please make the intel gathering mechanic either behavioral or a role one fits for, not a ship class we must bring to a fight to get intel. Predictable outcomes are boring.


Agree with most of this.

Originally by: Razin
Instant Local goes against everything you've written about 0.0 intel design goals. Switch it to delayed mode and give us some real intel tools:

- Upgrade the ship d-scan to have passive and active modes to add some range/detectability tradeoffs, and automate it's basic functions.

- Design a dedicated intel sharing system that allows for handing off of scan data between gang mates or to a chat channel.

- Perhaps allow for POS structures and outposts to scan at some limited range and share this data.

- Add some detectability topology to star systems with celestials affecting the scan results. For examples allow hiding behind planets, or having some reason to 'come in from the sun'.

- Cloaking will need to be balanced for this to work. Some way to detect the 'cloak signature' at the very least, and possibly limiting interaction with environment (like scanning, etc.) while cloaked.


This sort of thing is what we'd like to do, yes Smile

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.15 16:15:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Tippia
I once again squarely point to Planetside as a good decent enough illustration about how intel can be done in a fun way.

Basically, PS had a number of intel tools, on a strategical, operational and tactical level that intermingled and gave both grunts and commanders something to look at, think about, and analyse, and which gave the enemy things to attack and tactics to use to minimise their intel footprint.

On the strategic level, there was a semi-live-updated world map that showed known action hotspots, and which let people (and commanders) know roughly what was happening where. However, there were some fine points to this level of detail, most notably from the way "hotspots" were determined: it was a location where friendly forces attacked enemy forces (and, very importantly, not the other way around), including automated defences. So a sneaky enemy could kill a whole lot of things, but if nothing ever shot back, it wouldn't show up. A more indirect means of intel was to look at the map and see the status of a base and notice how its resources were depleting as a result of various components being shot up, so even the sneaky enemy would leave a track… but a very subtly one where you had to pay attention. Friendly contacts showed up as animated explosions that updated every minute or so — lots of explosions = lots of action.

On an operational level, there was the population number. Originally, just like in EVE, this simply told you how many enemies were around, but that was later changed to a more interesting version: it told you the player ratios, which you could combine with a friendly-player count to estimate the size of the enemy force. There was also the continent-wide Interlink systtem — a type of structure that provided radar capabilities to all connected bases. This made it a prime target for the enemy to disable, steal, or otherwise knock out (including cutting the links that connected it to the rest of the network). Also, bases could tell you roughly how many enemies were around in its zone of influence through the use of some fairly broad categories (a low, medium, and high amount of enemies), and once you reached the highest category, there was no telling how many were actually there, just that it was at least hellalot of them…

On a tactical level, the Interlink radar was also available in the form of easily deployable and easily destroyable short-range sensors and in a mobile scout ship form. Being detected by any of these radar forms made you show up on the radar of every friendly in the area. Even cloaked units were subject to this detection unless they remained almost entirely passive or if they had also equipped some extra space-consuming stealth-boosting equipment. And of course, at this level, there was also simple observation: looking around at all the stuff shooting at you and reporting it back.

It was all about tools and counters, and about being able to interpret a fairly large amount of ambiguous information unless you were talking about your immediate surrounding — the farther away you were from the action, the less you had to work with. The scale might be different, but a lot of these can be more or less directly transplanted, adapted, or otherwise applied to EVE, and some even exist in a limited form already (e.g. the various ship destroyed/players in system stats in the starmap). …and of course, the much-maligned local…

A lot of these services, or even all of them, could (and I'd even say should) be tied to system upgrades that a space owner can deploy and which invaders can try to take out to cover their tracks (but at the same time, the sudden unavailability of this information is in and of itself a hint that something is going on). Of course, this would have to subject to the "easy to disrupt/easy to restore" philosophy discussed in the blog, or it would just be tedious.


Good info, thanks Smile

mxzf
Minmatar
Shovel Bros
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:36:00 - [22]
 

I haven't actually read the rest of the thread, so IDK if someone has said this already.

I just had an interesting idea for Local. What if you could have anchorable intel stations, or whatever you want to call them, that last for a certain amount of time. Make them big enough that you have to put some effort into keeping them up, it shouldn't be a "I'm going on a roam, drop 10 of these in my hold and I'll drop them as I go", instead make it something you can put some effort into if you're putting down roots in a system.

What I envision is something maybe 1k m3 that lasts for something in the 6-48h range (make it short enough that it does require attention now and then, but long enough that it's not a chore to manage them all the time. Possibly make different grades with different lifetimes). Once they despawn, someone needs to go and set up another. Since they're a decent size, you'll need to switch over to an Indy or something to place another, rather than carry a bunch in your combat ship and just go drop one. It shouldn't be difficult at all to do, but it should require doing.

There should be a fairly accessible BPO for making them, the BPO should cost less than 50M and it shouldn't need more than 5-10M in minerals to make one that will last atleast most of a day or two, and they must be buildable in a POS assembly array of some kind. This will drive a bit of desire for mining and industrial chars to keep intel stations up and running, and it'll make it MUCH harder for AFK botters to just sit in a system 23/7 with no effort.

It should give intel to anyone in the corp (or alliance, though you would want to make it a bigger investment) that places it, have a window that you can open that will give a summary of the people in the system, possibly also their ship size or type.

Aside: Maybe also have it so that each level of an appropriate skill extends the range so that you can connect to intel stations in other systems, but only if you have active intel stations in each system inbetween. I would suggest 1j range per level of the skill, starting with only the local system at lvl 1 and maxing out at 4j distant. I'm not sure if having intel in systems you're not in would obsolete current intel channels, but it was an idea.

I envision the display showing a list somewhat like a cross between the Scanner and how Local is currently. You should be able to set up some form of filters for the display (I don't really care about the blues in the system, I just want to see when reds/neuts show up). Also, keep Local around in WH mode, it's nice to be able to chat with "whoever's in the system" rather than clogging up alliance chat, and it's good for smack-talking with invaders/residents and such.

Aside: Maybe make sufficiently advanced versions capable of disrupting the cloaking devices of reds in-system (make them extremely hard to probe, almost unprobable, but still findable if you put forth the effort). This would be a way to reduce the AFK cloakers without completely killing cloaking globally, since it would require a decent amount of effort to use high-grade intel stations and then go and probe out the intruders. This isn't really the main point of this idea, but it popped into my head while I was writting this, so I tossed it in as something else to think about.

mxzf
Minmatar
Shovel Bros
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:40:00 - [23]
 

Also, I would like this to be something that small gangs can get around but it would be impractical to use large gangs. I suggest making it so that you can hack them to make people not show up on intel. However, you can only keep people hidden from intel as long as your hacking module is actively cycling on the intel station, and the number of people you can hide is based off of your Hacking skill, maybe something like 1-2 people hidden per level, which would make having a gang over 20 people less popular due to needing a bunch of people to keep the group hidden. But you could still do large-scale alliance fights since then you wouldn't really care if other people knew your numbers, since you're relying on brute-force anyways.

This could lead to stuff like a gang sending in a hacker ahead of time to crack the intel network and hide the gang when they get there. This could also be used to disguise the size of the gang while it's traveling through systems (the residents only see 1 red on scans unless they go and check and find out that he's hacking to let his gang get through unseen). However, the intel stations should have insane resists (or simply be invulnerable to damage) to keep from having blobs just drop and kill them. If you want to take down intel, you have to hack it. And if you take over a system, then you just have to keep the previous owners out for a day or two and their old intel will despawn, so there's no issue with having to clean up the area after you take over (and therefore no need for an ability to destroy intel stations).

And due to the hacker having to stay at the intel station while it's being hacked, the residents will be able to strike back at the hacker, if they so choose, because they will know where he is (the attackers will have to decide if they want to go looking for targets or if they want to keep people behind to guard the hacker). There would also be the possibility of sending a Pilgrim or something like that to cap out the hacker and shut down his hacking and restore intel ('till he recharges and starts hacking again that is). I envision the possibility of a decent amount of play/counterplay around intel stations between small gangs trying to disrupt intel and the residents restoring it.

This is all fairly raw and unpolished, since I thought up about half of it while typing it (and the other half while I was scanning the first few posts), but feel free to comment on it, critique it, or grab sections of it and work it into something even better.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:54:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Good info, thanks Smile
…oh, and one more thing that didnt fit in there. Razz

One of the main things about all that PS intel was that none of it actually was much in the way of intel, as such. What it did was provide you with a massive amount of data, which had to be interpreted, and this was where the player skill and activity lay: unless you were actively looking and analysing, you had absolutely nothing to work with.

Only on the most short-range tactical level could you actively make use of the data at a glance — you saw nasty ebil red enemy dots on the radar that (somewhat) matched was around the corner, but that only stretched out to maybe 1/3d visual range and quickly just became noise if there were a lot of enemies milling about. This basically did what the EVE overview does with the ship size icons.

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:27:00 - [25]
 

its too easy to stay safe in 0.0... trust me i have been living there my entire eve life and have never been caught in a belt and been gangked... this is a bad thing...

its too easy to setup intel chans and what nots and rat to your hearts desire...

if they made 0.0 local delayed like wh (but only nuets and non blues are missing)... or even better let me know how many people are in system just not who they are untill the chat...

Please g-d if you are going to increase the reward of living in 0.0 also increase its base risk...

you could even have a mod in 0.0 systems where you need level 5 sov to deploy a system scanner(already in game) that would identify who is in space (not cloaked)
to give some level of security...

Sassums
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:53:00 - [26]
 

Low Sec is broken. I think the Local Chat channel gives off way too much information.

I don't want you to know if I am in your Null Sec system or Low Sec system I want you to come find me.

I think you should only appear on Local if you come in range of another player or something like that.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:07:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

This sort of thing is what we'd like to do, yes Smile

Well, good to hear, though that "sort" is kinda worrying me. I hope actual implementation details will also be up for some debate.

Just a couple things to add to delayed local items:

- The new d-scan could be made for easier/earlier detection of larger ships and especially larger fleets, which would contribute to your Small vs Large Combat differentiation. The ultimate here would be to allow warping to extremely large fleet d-scan signatures, which would give some way for a smaller gang to harass a large fleet while keeping its lower detectability advantage. This will also give some tactical option to fleets. All of this should be a function of detection range though.

- On the subject of intel tools, the star map could use some love to allow for a strategic display of corp/alliance/fleet intel.

Uhura Dennkhar
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:22:00 - [28]
 

About local, my idea:

Local corp/alliance holding the sov, CAN upgrade the system with "local scan module".

Each lvl of sov allow to deploy one More modules.

You should have at least have 3 mod online and link together to have a local.

At lvl1 : you CAN put 2mods
At lvl2 : you CAN put 3mods and Begin to have a local
At lvl3 : you CAN put 4mods
At lvl4 : you CAN put 5mods
At lvl5 : you CAN put 6mods

Each Mod have a Max range for link of X au ( to be defined )

So you CAN never cover the whole system, so it's open new kind of warfare.

Also the scout CAN launch a scanning probe specialized in detected scan mods. So the inty CAN have a system map of the "local" and maybe conturn it to make attack tactics...

That's just my ideas

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:33:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Andski on 15/08/2011 18:34:49
The problem is that delayed local has its place in w-space, where this is counterbalanced by the fact that there are no static routes. Unlike wormholes, routes to 0.0 systems are completely static and we have supercapitals. Naturally, this provokes a few questions:

1) What would be set to delayed local? All 0.0 systems in EVE? Would a certain ihub upgrade be introduced to add instant local to a system? Would there be such a mechanic in NPC 0.0, with certain systems having instant local?

2) Naturally, nobody should be able to pass through a populated system with impunity. We also shouldn't have to man gates 23/7 - tedium is not a solution. Delayed local also eliminates a tactic where you park a cloaked ship in a system, keeping its residents aware of your constant presence, and hindering them from doing everyday tasks.

3) Merely setting local to delayed would introduce tedium when looking for targets - you want to find a target, but you're not sure if there are any in a given system, so dropping probes would become :effort: after a few runs. If I jump into a system, should I be seen in local immediately or when I lose my cloak? The 30 seconds would be enough to come up with a plan - if some ratter sees me in local and I pull it off right, I'd have a point on him before he has a chance to pull drones. My presence should not be completely undetectable by passive (non-tedious) means.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.15 18:48:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Feligast on 15/08/2011 18:49:30
Originally by: Sassums
Low Sec is broken. I think the Local Chat channel gives off way too much information.

I don't want you to know if I am in your Null Sec system or Low Sec system I want you to come find me.

I think you should only appear on Local if you come in range of another player or something like that.


Here's the thing, though.. if I don't know you're there in my system, how am I supposed to come find you? Blind luck? And with all the other things they included in the blob, there has to be some advantage to owning space, one of which could be an "improved" intel system.

Originally by: "My brosef Mag's"
Local is a hard mechanic to change. On one hand we should work harder for the information we want, but on the other we shouldn't have to click every 2 seconds to get it. There should be a balance and maybe 15 minutes is that balance.


Mag's.. I KNEW you'd be in this thread :P Definitely agree there needs to be a balance between dscan spamming and the delay, but my feeling is 15 minutes is just too long. In 15 minutes, a single BC could conceivably have moved 8-12 jumps away.. and even the longest solo fights don't last more than 5. In fact, 5 minutes is more what I would invision on a delayed local sort of implementation.


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