open All Channels
seplocked Features and Ideas Discussion
blankseplocked Nullsec design goals feedback: Smallholding
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (11)

Author Topic

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.15 10:53:00 - [1]
 

This set of threads exist to collect feedback for the separate parts of the devblog "Nullsec Development: Design Goals", which can be found here.


This thread is about: SMALLHOLDING


Please read the blog and give specific feedback on this area of the blog. The more precise, reasoned and comprehensive you can be, the better we can utilize your feedback Smile

Julian Bean Delphiki
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:17:00 - [2]
 

Maybe make a POS version that is more accessible for newer players, solo pve or miners and small (<20) cooperations, have it consume no or very little fuel and perhaps it can only be used for docking and storage, sort of like a civilian module, it works but is severely limited.

Keith F
Caldari
United ALT Forces
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:34:00 - [3]
 

Could a new position in corp be made, "Rental Officer", that allows Corps with/wanting space to send/receive adverts etc AND Contracts which ONLY they or CEO can process.
Once Agreement made, a auto fee paid, same as office rental, which could give them the right to anchor 1 POS @"X" moon ,in designated system, or 2 POS at "X,Y" dependant on price/terms.

This could also auto assign a +1 Blue(ish) standing to that player/corp for duration of contract.Ceo or standings/rental officer could +/- this standing later to reduce/increase rent on a sliding scale"RENT" set in Allaince.

This would make it easier for small corps to a, find who to contact for a legitimate rental, and B, get some form of dialogue going

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:45:00 - [4]
 

Would like to see something similar to npc drug dens you find in missions (pleasure hubs, drug labs, military staging posts, silos ect), could be extras you add to mini pos/ comand center/ junction/ thing. with poor man defences/ none at all?

perhaps some system silmilatr to acceleration gates to control the ins and outs, depending on size? no HUge transport ships/ only allow cruisers in ect...

i think it'd be cool to see small pirate dens, perhaps even small corps, all together in a deadspace pocket with theyre main defence being to stay hidden Twisted Evil

Charla Audin
Posted - 2011.08.15 13:58:00 - [5]
 

The first bullet is accessibility - should be available for $10 million seed money. Great but unpractical -

How would you prevent larger alliances / corps / pirates demanding protection money (err rent) from smallholders thus driving up the small cost of investment you quoted? The $10 million isk seed money is irrelevant and misleading - the real cost for a small corp to establish a nullsec presence will be dictated by the larger corps and alliances. I do not see how this new concept will differ in any way from the situation today.

Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:35:00 - [6]
 


How about allowing small groups to place structures out in dead space, not anchored to anything? Make them mini-bases, something that has to be scanned down.

It could be nothing more than a large storage / refitting facility that can be moved fairly easily.

Maybe it could have useful modules you can add to it, but the more you add the larger the signature and the longer it takes to take down and move?

Perhaps they can upgrade to cloak (or minimize their sig radius) to stay off the radar as long as no one is at them?

The more I think about it, why not let anyone plant their own little cabin out on the frontier and live out of it. Lots of mission rats have their own private quarters - why can't players have them?

I've always wanted a place to call my own, but never wanted the logistical PITA of owning my own POS and having it so easily found by warping to all the moons in a system.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:41:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Rees Noturana on 15/08/2011 14:42:47
Edit: yes, feeding off of Shasz's ideas above.

I have to admit the concept for smallholding came as a surprise, but a welcome one. I can see this providing the opportunity for the 'dead horse pos' redesign that has been floating around forever and the chance for those of us wanting a smaller operation outside of null sec not involving huge alliances.

One person commented on making it like a dead space site which is intriguing as well. We could explore to find an interesting location, perhaps once that contained some local flavor like gas clouds and decorative rocks we could then build a deadspace jump gate to provide access. Basically, we gain the ability to make deadspace homes just like the NPCs do.

The jump gate could even be configured like the sites. Small home owners than only fly cruisers would limit the gate to cruiser and below. Those that want to access it with a carrier would be opening it up to assault by capitals. Maybe the gate needs an access key but can be hacked over time. Not with a few minutes of work but make someone have to be dedicated.

This would allow those that want to actively deny us access to our home to camp our gate and eventually hack the gate and place combat forces inside.

I'd like to see a single customizable structure inside as suggested by the dead-horse threads. Sentry defenses would be more vulnerable but the main structure would have its shields that can last some time.

I'm loving this concept and can't wait to see how this develops.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:44:00 - [8]
 

I like the idea of a micro POS, though I'd like to see the option of a module to anchor to it that has something like 2 slots which can only hold one function at a time.
You can run both as manufacturing, or one as ME and one as TE, or any other combination. However, just as with the current set up, if you cancel a job, it still has the remaining time left before you can start something else or swap out the "equipment" (thinking lore in that respect) needed for the job.

Captain Hindsite
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:53:00 - [9]
 

Some great ideas in this thread so far. I especially love the "cabin on the frontier" concept. People have already shown a willingness to live out of a damn GSC anchored at a safespot in both null and WH-space in order to accomplish some limited goals, so why not expand on this concept and provide some sort of truly customizable, expandable dwelling outside of the predictable, boring old POS? The pros and cons when compared to the POS methodology are both readily apparent and easily weighed.

This also ties in directly with the bullet points in the "Home" section.

GizzyBoy
Posted - 2011.08.15 14:56:00 - [10]
 

I don't see the point of a small station type system that possible has little to no automated defenses and possible is just one big little pinyata for a sc gang to crack open.

I dont understand why you'd make mining more profitable in nullsec either, I thought it was all about the pvp out there?

for a small group / corp of 20-30 id actually recommend a type of space that restricts or prevents easy blobbing and titan and sc gangs.

Something not unlike wh space. infact thats pretty much where id recommend any group of 10-20 actives to setup pretty much..

that is unless they Lub them some Politics.

restricting t2 to low/null is some what confusing, To either own a t2 original well your either a very old char, or super rich so finding/buying some where to do your trade is relatively easy.

which just leaves invention, And that requires at times gob loads of data cores and other materials in varying types (pi/moon/min) which is quite a little logistics chain in off itself.

and to get a pos up and running in HS is quiet a feat for a newbie corp in any sort of short term time frame.

wh's should keep there spawns of abc's ive lost a number of hulks doing this, I dont see why nullsecers should be Carebareing it up.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:00:00 - [11]
 

I don't think it should be thought of as a micro starbase but as starbase version 2.0. A small starbase can support maybe a few people if they just use it as a garage. A large can handle industry for a small corp but soon you'll be running out of room and need multiple starbases.

If the smallholding becomes the next starbase but redesigned to be modular then it meets their goals of a supporting small corporations in the wild. The more a smallholding is upgraded the more vulnerable it should become to being found and eventually taken out of service. The smaller ones should be too much trouble to hassle with allowing small time producers and explorers to operate somewhat safely out of them.

I think 10 mil ISK is a bit cheap but perhaps it scales up as we upgrade the CPU, power plant, hangar, etc.

Oh, and make it Incarna enabled. Yes, I like to sit on my couch while working out of game. Being able to meet my corp mates in the lounge or corp office in it would be cool too. Four racial variants, maybe tweaked for pirate factions as well.

These places would make for small scale combat sites against pirates or roaming gangs from your neighbors too.

Add in exploration based mining and more agile mining vessels and I'd be a happy null-sec camper.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:08:00 - [12]
 

I envision some sort of customizable (like t3 cruisers) sub cap ship with a limited hangar/cargo for holding ships and materials.

The ship would have to have some method of remaining undetected whenever its pilot hops into a different ship to run operations in the system, perhaps a modified cloaking device that automatically enables when the ship is not piloted and no objects are within 20km of it (dont forget to bm your ship location) U could implement some sort of fuel usage so that the ship uncloaks after X time so that it can be found or stolen when its owner cannot get back into his mobile home in time.

The only way to catch these ships would be to scan them down when their operator is near them, or wait till the fuel runs out.

I think any sort of mini pos system is doomed to failure because the large alliances will just come around to blow that stuff up when it suits their fancy.



Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:13:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Ya Huei
I envision some sort of customizable (like t3 cruisers) sub cap ship with a limited hangar/cargo for holding ships and materials.


Maybe for the nomadic lifestyle option, which is also appealing. We can't really do a good nomad right now.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:24:00 - [14]
 

Originally posted under "Home", but makes more sense here, elaborating a bit, also.

Deep Space Stations.

An essential requirement for a sense of "Home" is a sense of safety.

Deep Space Stations should be little more than glorified garages, as manufacturing, research, and refining require considerable energy and manpower resources that are only available near moons and planets, but they should be tough little garages, trivially easy to defend if you are actually using them but destructible and lootable if abandoned. One way to get this would be an incredible shield susbsystem with performance that degrades if the station is not used (representing a lack of maintenance).

A well used DSS should take several cap ships to crack, one not used for a month should fall easy prey to a BS or two. If they are relatively cheap to begin with then they should proliferate at a rate that makes them safe enough if you don't actively tick people off with those defensive levels.

They can come in various sizes (or be expandable) but the largest they should get for capacity would be 3 Cap Ships in the ship bay and 1 Standard container of general storage. This is big enough for an extensive individual base of operations or a small corp base.

This obviously doesn't provide perfect safety. They are scannable, campable, and the ownership is readily determinable. But they can provide the small investment toehold talked about under sovereignty and give small operators something "good enough to work with" that isn't of major utility to larger organizations.

Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:26:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Rees Noturana
Originally by: Ya Huei
I envision some sort of customizable (like t3 cruisers) sub cap ship with a limited hangar/cargo for holding ships and materials.


Maybe for the nomadic lifestyle option, which is also appealing. We can't really do a good nomad right now.


New class of ship - something that when you eject from it, you can anchor it and it becomes a mini-base. Anchor for corp or anchor personally - nobody without rights can unanchor it, but they can certainly shoot at it.

Space Winnebagos!

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:28:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Shasz
Originally by: Rees Noturana
Originally by: Ya Huei
I envision some sort of customizable (like t3 cruisers) sub cap ship with a limited hangar/cargo for holding ships and materials.


Maybe for the nomadic lifestyle option, which is also appealing. We can't really do a good nomad right now.


New class of ship - something that when you eject from it, you can anchor it and it becomes a mini-base. Anchor for corp or anchor personally - nobody without rights can unanchor it, but they can certainly shoot at it.

Space Winnebagos!

This would be very good.

Wouldn't even need a new ship class, just make Industrial Capital ships anchorable in nullsec (obviously they wouldn't provide any of their bonuses if anchored).

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:29:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: GizzyBoy
I don't see the point of a small station type system that possible has little to no automated defenses and possible is just one big little pinyata for a sc gang to crack open.


I think the current deadspace mechanic with jump gates that restrict access based on ship size that would scale according to the size the hidden base would both limit super cap gangs insta-popping your house as well as provide a choke point for both attackers and defenders.

Allowing sentry guns both on the gate and around your cabin/laboratory/garage would keep things interesting as well.

These personal deadspace areas also provide for the 'terrain' that CCP has been wanting to introduce. Think of these spaces like mini w-space systems. Perhaps you live in a gas cloud that affects ships like some w-space systems do. Maybe you can even have linked deadspace areas where you have another base with your expensive labs deeper inside. Maybe we have homes that are built on asteroids. All sorts of opportunities here...

RAW23
Posted - 2011.08.15 15:55:00 - [18]
 

I love the idea of small-holdings but I'm not really sure I understand quite what is intended by the term. Would it be possible to elaborate a bit more with some hypothetical examples?

Nonnori Ikkala
Love for You
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:04:00 - [19]
 

As a member of a new, small, corp of RL friends and acquaintances, I approve of these concepts and ideas! We're splitting our time among high, low, and null sec for now. These sorts of features are really intriguing, and I think would tend to get us excited about trying out the exciting world of null sec more extensively.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.15 16:34:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: RAW23
I love the idea of small-holdings but I'm not really sure I understand quite what is intended by the term. Would it be possible to elaborate a bit more with some hypothetical examples?


Ok, gonna use this post to reference a whole bunch of other posts in this thread which I agree with Smile

The basic idea is that it should be viable for small groups of players to set up shop in quiet areas of nullsec without necessarily getting the approval of the big fish in the area (particularly if they're doing smart things like settling in space owned by an alliance in a different TZ). They'd have to keep out of the way of the "owners", but so long as they managed to do that it'd end up being far more hassle than it was worth, and cost much more than it would save, to evict them.

This requires, more than anything else, the ability to make a "safe base", which would ideally be something along the lines of a fully scalable modular starbase anchored somewhere in deepish space, where it couldn't be found unless you followed its owners home, provided it stayed small enough. This gives both a practical base of operations and a "homestead"ish feel - as you build up and customize your own little settlement, it becomes your home as well as your base.

Ideally this would also entail various tools to upgrade bits of the system in a way that again isn't really worth dealing with, maybe even down to the per-planet level (all the belts around this one planet are a bit better, or it spawns some extra anoms, or something).

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:46:00 - [21]
 

@Greyscale:

Yes, this is exactly what I would like to see.

By deep space I'm guessing you are referring to greater than normal distances from celestials making them not appear on normal scans or probing. If that is the case will we be getting some sort of mechanic to manually plot a course to a deep space point or would we have to scan down appropriate pockets of space using something like deep space probes?

Please do consider the concept of 'terrain' for these homes. A small structure floating deep in empty space is cool on its own but would be more interesting if the pocket had some character to it.

It will become normal practice to clear systems of squatters so they must be hard to find. Of course, these kinds of bases will become normal for spies and covert assault teams in enemy space. Sounds good Twisted Evil

Zenith Intaki
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:47:00 - [22]
 

Well this is what I have always wanted to do in EVE: live nomadic way.

I once had orca alt, and main in some ship. I did highsec exploration for some little time, all ships, all stuff that I need, with me in that orca.

Would love to be able to live in nullsec and just roam freely with others. There should be somekind of massive 'mothership' that could serve as mobile starbase.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.15 16:53:00 - [23]
 

So you intend to make solar systems bigger (perceptually, at least)?

If so, that is a good thing. A solar system should be able to support several corporations, and it should feel bigger than it currently does.

The main problem at that point becomes how do you establish your base foothold for a deep space station?

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:06:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
The main problem at that point becomes how do you establish your base foothold for a deep space station?


If the cabin in the wilderness is going to work for solo and small corps you have to be able to fit the parts into a blockade runner. Expecting a freighter or some sort of capital blows the 10 mil ISK starting cost out of the water. You should have to make a run for each module to making setting up your home a bit more work.

Trip one, find an appropriate spot using a cov ops frigate or exploration T3 for more advanced pilots.

Trip two, anchor your initial 'home' module and get the lights turned on. Maybe it comes with enough docking space for your transport and a cruiser or three.

Subsequent trips you bring some sentry guns, a laboratory, various small factory upgrades. Upgrade your ship hangar or storage with some more modules. It could take weeks for a solo pilot to build this all up, one module at a time.

I do like Greyscale's concept of upgrading a small part of space. It sounds like parts of iHubs but attached to your cabin. I set up a scanner to start looking for better mining sites, etc.

It needs to be a personal asset though, but shareable by way of personal standings. If I give someone +10 standings and the location of my home they should be able to come visit, dock, walk to a common area.

Actually, give the option to deploy for self or deploy for corporation.

Kotami
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:11:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Kotami on 15/08/2011 17:12:36
I'm very in favor of making 0.0 more accessible to non-PVP (read, industrialists) oriented players. However...

Quote:
Accessible

Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK) should be able to establish some small, semi-permanent presence in nullsec. Not everyone wants to get involved in nullsec, but every player that feels even a slight interest but never quite takes the plunge represents a failure of design that we should fix.


Not possible. I'm sure your aware that it takes billions of ISK to run a proper T2 manufacturing operation. BILLIONS. Not even to mention the time invested in researching BPOs. How do you expect the non-PVP smallholders to mitigate that risk?

I'm sorry, but until proven wrong, the only thing I can interpret from all of this is that a bunch of 0.0 CSM members are advocating for a more target rich environment full of non-PVP players worth BILLIONS if\when they manage to pop the pinata.

Prove me wrong.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Kotami
Edited by: Kotami on 15/08/2011 17:12:36
I'm very in favor of making 0.0 more accessible to non-PVP (read, industrialists) oriented players. However...

Quote:
Accessible

Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK) should be able to establish some small, semi-permanent presence in nullsec. Not everyone wants to get involved in nullsec, but every player that feels even a slight interest but never quite takes the plunge represents a failure of design that we should fix.


Not possible. I'm sure your aware that it takes billions of ISK to run a proper T2 manufacturing operation. BILLIONS. Not even to mention the time invested in researching BPOs. How do you expect the non-PVP smallholders to mitigate that risk?

I'm sorry, but until proven wrong, the only thing I can interpret from all of this is that a bunch of 0.0 CSM members are advocating for a more target rich environment full of non-PVP players worth BILLIONS if\when they manage to pop the pinata.

Prove me wrong.


The smallholding doesn't mean it's a T2 factory operation. If its like PI where we plant a small command center and then upgrade as needed then maybe the smallest structure, or the seed, is in the 10's of millions. If all you want is a garage to park your T3 and then go look for null sec radar sites then don't upgrade. But if you want a large T2 operation then it should cost over 1 billion, like a large starbase with labs and factories does today.

I think the idea is to make it start small and then we make it what we want.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:26:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Rees Noturana
Originally by: Kotami
Edited by: Kotami on 15/08/2011 17:12:36
I'm very in favor of making 0.0 more accessible to non-PVP (read, industrialists) oriented players. However...

Quote:
Accessible

Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK) should be able to establish some small, semi-permanent presence in nullsec. Not everyone wants to get involved in nullsec, but every player that feels even a slight interest but never quite takes the plunge represents a failure of design that we should fix.


Not possible. I'm sure your aware that it takes billions of ISK to run a proper T2 manufacturing operation. BILLIONS. Not even to mention the time invested in researching BPOs. How do you expect the non-PVP smallholders to mitigate that risk?

I'm sorry, but until proven wrong, the only thing I can interpret from all of this is that a bunch of 0.0 CSM members are advocating for a more target rich environment full of non-PVP players worth BILLIONS if\when they manage to pop the pinata.

Prove me wrong.


The smallholding doesn't mean it's a T2 factory operation. If its like PI where we plant a small command center and then upgrade as needed then maybe the smallest structure, or the seed, is in the 10's of millions. If all you want is a garage to park your T3 and then go look for null sec radar sites then don't upgrade. But if you want a large T2 operation then it should cost over 1 billion, like a large starbase with labs and factories does today.

I think the idea is to make it start small and then we make it what we want.

As I noted above, for many folks just give them a reasonably secure place they can dock up and keep a spare ship or two while maintaining relative independence and they'll be all over nullsec.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:27:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
The basic idea is that it should be viable for small groups of players to set up shop in quiet areas of nullsec without necessarily getting the approval of the big fish in the area (particularly if they're doing smart things like settling in space owned by an alliance in a different TZ). They'd have to keep out of the way of the "owners", but so long as they managed to do that it'd end up being far more hassle than it was worth, and cost much more than it would save, to evict them.

This requires, more than anything else, the ability to make a "safe base", which would ideally be something along the lines of a fully scalable modular starbase anchored somewhere in deepish space, where it couldn't be found unless you followed its owners home, provided it stayed small enough. This gives both a practical base of operations and a "homestead"ish feel - as you build up and customize your own little settlement, it becomes your home as well as your base.
It also requires something being discussed in another thread: the ability to stay under the radar. Right now, that big fish can just open up the map and check the stats section to see that a very suspicious amount of people are in that system and that a ridiculously large amount of NPCs have been murdered in what's supposed to be an empty part of space.

Unless that information (or at least its ease of access) is gone, the larger alliance will soon come-a-stomping.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:32:00 - [29]
 

@Grayscale

I know this question is a bit early but are there any concepts on fueling a small holding? You mentioned a bi-weekly supply run but will this be some of that null sec only ice product or something a small time operator can find and produce on their own.

I'm still not sold on 100% null sec only ice. It feels like an arbitrary thing. Just make it so you have to work to find it.

Vincent Jarjadian
Posted - 2011.08.15 17:43:00 - [30]
 

If you could maybe edit Small POSs to use little or no fuel and be anchored anywhere... these could serve as the smallholdings. Anchored in safespots or deep safes... moderately difficult to scan down... Maybe the more items you put on it the easier it is to scan down...

Since small POSs are basically no use anyway for larger entities they probably wouldnt be missed... but a small corp or a few indivituals could easily use one.

Only thing to watch out for... is stopping big alliances using these deep safe POSs to bring in and safe up their massive fleets.


Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (11)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only