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Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:19:00 - [511]
 

Simply stating that industrialists are not wanted is only one half of the medal.

The other half is, very simply put that nullsec is not highsec. That means changes for players. Changes which often are painful or simply require effort or learning.

The first and most painful is organisation. Miners in highsec are usually in small corps between 3 - 15 players who know each other and help each other.

Nullsec corps are usually between 50 and 200 players.

The second is security. In nullsec you are your own security, this means taking up arms. Of course there are many shades of PvP but at the very least everyone has to defend their home.

This means that players have to change their structures and start learning something new, like local, intel, fleet, often discipline and getting along with a large number of players.

This is the major obstacle in getting players to nullsec.

Their industrial corp needs to grow to a meaningful numbers of players. This means more often than not leaving corps and friends behind, working with new players, some of them agreeable some not.

Get a hundred players industrial corp and start looking for alliances. Then motivate them to at least help defending their home. Welcome to nullsec.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:46:00 - [512]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 01/09/2011 02:55:42

Originally by: Rykuss

Great post! I hope CCP are actually reading this thread and see this post. Currently there is no reason for miners and industrialists to go there. We aren't wanted or needed with the current mechanics. Null alliances and players need to own some of the blame, CCP did make it viable to play the game this way and should fix it but there is nothing preventing us from coming out there but the current residents.
The current situation in 0.0 is forged upon the crucible of endless warfare. If 0.0 alliances recruiting industrialists or concepts like NRDS were a "viable form of play" for them, the ones that brought them in would rule null. Instead, carebear alliances die and the NBSI predatory models sup on their bones.

Vil Mahona touches on the reasons why this is so, but I feel he reaches the wrong conclusions. Nullsec should not be made more safe. Highsec should be made less safe. If I can mine ice in a Mackinaw in an NPC corp protected by CONCORD while researching and manufacturing in several free-of-charge, unconquerable stations, how on earth could it be good for my bottom line to move to nullsec and lose ships and time defending space?

The payout for highsec is already crap (except for L4 missions), the actual problem is that they are zero-risk, zero-expense activities that massively depress the market value of ice and minerals and low-level nullsec industrialists and miners can't compete because they have to pay expenses that highsec industrialists don't. Manufacturing capitals is something nullsec will always have a market for, and ratting drones if you have a carrier is the only real edge a nullsec industrialist can have over a hisec hulk. But for the rank-and-file, why should an 0.0 alliance executor take on your corp of onerous hulk pilots who can't fight, are big juicy targets for your enemies' killboards and can't match the prices or quantity their jump freighter alt can get two cynos over in highsec? Because they should feel bad if they don't?

If highsec players started eating actual losses besides suicide ganks, say if NPC corps intended for rookies were removed and wardec loopholes were plugged, the protection a 0.0 alliance instead of CONCORD would seem fiscally prudent, and the incurred costs of hisec production would increase prices to the point where 0.0 alliances would consider bringing in laborers instead of just jumping in their wares from highsec trade hubs.

Max Devious
Posted - 2011.09.01 05:24:00 - [513]
 

I would just add one thing to this conversation.

If all ice mining gets moved to Null, explain to me why any ice at all would ever get transported to Empire? At least until the price of ice products in Empire went very high? Even then, it would not be to their political advantage to do it.

Sigarni Green
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:29:00 - [514]
 

Try to balance out isk making from mining to amount of isk from ratting. Take the concept you already use with veldspar and other ores. Make it so you only find regular veld in hisec, med quality veld in losec and dense veld in 0.0. Drastically adjust the amount of minerals yielded from the higher quality ores. Make it so that isk wise you will make about 80% of isk worth from a haul of dense veldspar compared to cherry picking all the highgrade ores (abc's). Essentially make it so that when you have the far greater risk of mining in losec or 0.0 you should be able time mine any ore and not be out of pocket. If you make that a viable option people are far more likely to mine and build in 0.0 as was originally intended.

You can scale the the high end ores abc's so there high yield varients can only be found in the lowest of 0.0 security systems and throw a few of them into the hidden belts. Not the grav belts that spawn from sov upgrades but the random moving grav sites. If there is a facility for ratters and plex runners to get a "jackpot" moment make it so there is the same facility for a miner where they can walk away with a few 100mil after an hour of mining.

So to recap it is suggesting balance, with a ratter in 0.0 after an hour unmolested you can buy 3 bc hulls, make it so a miner can build 3 bc hulls with the same amount of work. As opposed to having to ship the high ends to hisec, compressing the low end minerals there, shipping it back to 0.0, reprocessing and then building.
I used to mine about 20 hours a week in hisec, in the last 18 months in 0.0 I have not mined 20 hours total. Economically it is just not viable.


Sigarni Green
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:46:00 - [515]
 

Originally by: Max Devious
I would just add one thing to this conversation.

If all ice mining gets moved to Null, explain to me why any ice at all would ever get transported to Empire? At least until the price of ice products in Empire went very high? Even then, it would not be to their political advantage to do it.


I rather agree, once you remove ice belts from hisec you will find that all the trillionaires out there will buy up all the ice products in hisec and hang on to it till the price sky rockets and then sell it, this will cause great market instability.
You will also find that by doing this you will force players to use pos's in accordance with the fuel they have available in their area, taking out a large variety from the game. Pos baskinh is not overly exiting but going to pureblind and shooting a hundred caldari towers that all just jam half the fleet will mean tactics are adjusted and the grind continues.

I am also willing to put a good amount of isk down that within a month you will barely be able to find a 0.0 system with an ice belt without the odd starting corp toon in a stealth bomber floating around stopping any ice mining. The ice in 0.0 is better than in hisec but compared to the increase of risk it is not worth it.
Getting a group to ice mine with security detail would be nice to be self sufficient for pos fuel. But at current rates you would have to mine for a couple of days with a fleet to support a sov region.
It might seem like a good idea but it is not reasonable.
0.0 is just too unpredictable, that 1 neut in system could be by himself and your 20 man defensive fleet can protect your 30 macs in the belt. Or they could simply be waiting until they have enough numbers to light a cyno and decimate your entire fleet.(Clearly only attacking when they know it is an easy win).(Yes you could bait trap but 100 peeps standing by for a fight for an hour for nothing is not why i pay to play eve)

Just saying if it is worth the risk then it will happen in 0.0 but a 3 bil fleet that is is touch as wet paper for minimal payout is not worth it. It is unlikely to create more game content or improve it, only hamper and frustrate more players.

Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.01 11:54:00 - [516]
 

I am really happy that ice is going to be null only! But the thing with mining is, that minerals are very undervalued. Comparatively, it will be the worst source of income unless you always mine morphite. But ratting and exploration will always out isk the mining. And, it's just easier to rat 50m isk and buy what you want.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:24:00 - [517]
 

Edited by: Ciar Meara on 01/09/2011 13:26:34
I lived in a high class wormhole with a corp for several months on end. The figures that Greyscale is offering make alot of sense from that perspective.

Hulks versus Covetors: First thing you learn while mining in WH: use a covetor

Ore mined percentages: Those are offcourse "off" when you are in a WH you do the sites they present to you. If you find ark you mine it, if you find gass you take it all, even veldspar. Hover it up, box it up ship it out. You don't need to look at the percentages mined, but released to the market over time from lower classes.

The lower class wormholes that are supposedly flooding the market with ABC ores with ninjamining are an urban myth. They only way you get large amounts of ores out of wormholes is with rorquals and covetor fleets hovering up any site they find and shipping those things out in bulk when they are compressed and filling your hangars.

In short I don't think that WH should be touched in any way at the moment. In terms of mining the yields you get from high class wormholes might be nice earnings but so is the effort, logistics and risk you put into it. These high class wormholes where people live and can mine in large quantities do not exit out to jita. I would like to suggest CCP Greyscale to listen in on an op where a rorqual and other materials are guided into a high class wormhole. Fleet battles are easier and less stressfull.


Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:27:00 - [518]
 

Originally by: Acac Sunflyier
I am really happy that ice is going to be null only!


Never owned a pos in a wormhole, eh? Try it, come back in six months and we'll all laugh together about how stupid you looked today.

Sephiroth CloneIIV
Rim Worlds Republic
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.09.02 03:14:00 - [519]
 

Originally by: Max Devious
I would just add one thing to this conversation.

If all ice mining gets moved to Null, explain to me why any ice at all would ever get transported to Empire? At least until the price of ice products in Empire went very high? Even then, it would not be to their political advantage to do it.


I myself consider myself supporter of boasting nullsec (double yields of certain things), but... this removing of ice is going to create chaos and speculation and hoarding worse then the PI release (which I myself profited from, guidance systems FTWin).

Does anyone think of how it will impact suppys everywhere, ice atm is one racial type for huge multi regional areas, how will that impact just about any multiracial alliance with capitals? Ignoring highsec pos managers jumping off the towers and into the vacuum of space. This will make fuel prices skyroket for everyone.

In a hypotheical future where ice is removed from highsec, in order a alliance to get ice they want it will have to be brought from null and low on the other side of the galaxy, imported to empire (higher price on top of the raised price due to reduced supply) then exported to nullsec alliances on the other side of map who have no access to the particular racial isotope (raising it even more then what empire people pay for). Whatever people got to pay In empire for fuel nullsec people will have to pay even more for 3/4ths of all the fuel they use, for POS's AND capitals.

Of course this is assuming that someone doesn't take hold of all racial isotopes of one type and make a monopoly of them causing prices and supply to take a sharp turn even further (considering the static nature and rarity of ice fields, it is very possible).

The only perk from this event I can see is the utter chaos it will cause will make things very interesting and make ice fields one of the most valued points in the universe, but other then that has little to do with helping null-sec be more attractive or help anyone other then speculators buying up ice and those who can hold the monopolies of ice.


Luis Graca
Posted - 2011.09.02 21:23:00 - [520]
 

"Sole source of ice and high-end minerals

For further discussion. Nullsec should be the only place we're injecting (at least some of the) ices, zydrine, megacyte and morphite into the game."

So how mutch more will a T1 BC or BS cost for PvP and for the rookies? (it's allready har from them to get these ships the first time, acording to what i remember and from what i ear from time to time)


Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.09.02 21:49:00 - [521]
 

The good thing, if really ice goes all to null, that high sec POS's will be heavily reduced, NPC corps filled with thousands of new players.

It's all good heh? -less people buying more people playing together in corp chat.

Awesome...or not.

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.09.03 05:14:00 - [522]
 

Removing ICe from High-sec is really a waste of time.

For the most part 0.0 corp buy there faction Ice from High-sec and get heavy water and liquid ozone from 0.0.
The reason is simply a matter of time and economics.

Faction ice takes forever to mine and it is not worth it for a 0.0 person to mine it.
Cheaper to make ISK another way and import it.

But more importantly, what is the goal of removing all ice from high-sec ?


Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.09.03 19:48:00 - [523]
 

Originally by: Luis Graca
"Sole source of ice and high-end minerals

For further discussion. Nullsec should be the only place we're injecting (at least some of the) ices, zydrine, megacyte and morphite into the game."

So how mutch more will a T1 BC or BS cost for PvP and for the rookies? (it's allready har from them to get these ships the first time, acording to what i remember and from what i ear from time to time)
What's stopping rookies from going to null and capitalizing on increased mineral values for themselves in this scenario? And how it is more newbie friendly to have newbies in their badly fit T1 ships compete economically for ore and loot against L5 across the board NPC corp mission grinders in their marauders and mackinaws?

Alabugin
Posted - 2011.09.04 04:41:00 - [524]
 

Originally by: Lor Kessel
Restricting Ice mining to nullsec would have far reaching consequences which stem from one concern

Logistics - how would all those ice products get from nullsec to high sec for the high sec POS's ?

The cost of ice products would sky rocket, this would cause many highsec and lowsec pos's to offline, virtually no BP research would occur in highsec or lowsec any more. This would drive the cost of T2 ships/modules through the roof.




Arent they proposing to make t2 research ONLY possible in nullsec anyway? Therefore if this was done, the ice in highsec would become worthless anyway.

I dont see the cost of ice skyrocketing, as the demand will decrease, as well as the supply.
If highsec poses dont need the ICE for research, then they dont need the ice - its a win/win situation really.

Then the only point of ice mining wouldnt be to make ISK (deter the bot miners) and only to supply nullsec POS fuel.

Right?

Josie Callahan
Posted - 2011.09.04 18:27:00 - [525]
 

Originally by: Ya Huei


3. if u do end up removing abc's from w-space then strip the requirements for those minerals from t3 production chains.




sry m8, but last time I checked, t3 production requires sleeper materials, not minerals of any type except for the r.a.m. tools.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.09.05 03:51:00 - [526]
 

I stand by earlier ideas, and what keeps being said, you need to give 0.0 people a reason to mine.


Make TCU, stations, and other stuff have some sort of fuel requirement that can only be found in 0.0.

BUT DONT TOUCH HIGH SEC ICE! High sec ice is 100% needed in game otherwise there will be complete chaos.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.09.05 11:07:00 - [527]
 

Originally by: Josie Callahan
Originally by: Ya Huei


3. if u do end up removing abc's from w-space then strip the requirements for those minerals from t3 production chains.




sry m8, but last time I checked, t3 production requires sleeper materials, not minerals of any type except for the r.a.m. tools.


Let me educate you :

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=623




Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:34:00 - [528]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk

BUT DONT TOUCH HIGH SEC ICE! High sec ice is 100% needed in game otherwise there will be complete chaos.


And chaos is just what this game need. Ice is currently too cheap, 0.0 mining not rewarding enough.

mkint
Posted - 2011.09.05 15:40:00 - [529]
 

From the dev blog and Greyscale's posts to this thread I see only 1 reasonable conclusion:

0.0 alliances have bribed grayscale in $ from their RMT operations to have the game developed in a way that will make their RMT more profitable.

Nerfing mining in w-space is saying "w-space corp? Miners need not apply." Especially when those miners could be shifted into the RMT machine. Nearly every career type can be done in any type of space. Removing mining (commensurate to the risk) from w-space would only serve to bolster the 0.0 RMT empires, and of course, the bribes Greyscale takes from them.

I agree with making ice in highsec non-infinite. However, without doing the same to nullsec CCP is saying "if you wanna bot and RMT you gotta pay your bribes to Greyscale." To make the changes to ice mining less of a joke about CCP corruption, make all ores non-infinite and the difference between high/low/null be the quality of the ores (refining yield per unit.)

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.09.05 19:38:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: mkint
From the dev blog and Greyscale's posts to this thread I see only 1 reasonable conclusion:

0.0 alliances have bribed grayscale in $ from their RMT operations to have the game developed in a way that will make their RMT more profitable.
sounds legit

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.09.06 00:22:00 - [531]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/09/2011 00:48:19
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Part of the reason for doing this kind of feedback round is to get precisely this sort of info Smile If you know of some knowledgeable WH types who can give a clear explanation of their perspective on this stuff, then seriously please ask them to come post here. Clear, reasoned perspectives on things are hugely valuable resources for us.

I'll happily discuss my 2.5 years or so of w-space experience if you have any questions about what goes on there.

I've lived in w-space pretty much since it existed. I started this account one week before Apocrypha. I moved into w-space about 4 weeks later. My corp just recently left w-space behind, unanchoring our last tower in a C5 just a day ago.

I started in a C2 with a static to a C3 and hisec. We later moved to a C2 with a C4 and hisec static (which we joined a small alliance to share with another corp), and finally a C5 with a C5 static.

We only had one T3 manufacturer in the corp, an alt of course as it requires a huge amount of skills (he's currently at 33m SP in Science) . We'd give him the salvage and datacores free, give him all the melted nanoribons at Jita sell order price, and split the tags and artifacts based on Jita sell order price. He'd supply the corp with T3 ships at a discount.

We had two attempts at Polymer reactions. The first attempt was on my own POS (large Domination... before they cost billions) in a C2 using locally harvested fullerene gas and imported minerals. It failed, as we were in a C2 and the fullerene gas supply is too limited in quantity and variety, as well as only being low-end. The reaction modules also required a significant amount of the tower's CPU/grid, which weakened its defense. We were sieged and ransomed.

The second attempt was a dedicated throw-away Gallente medium tower just for reactions. This worked well, but was a beast to keep fed. We gave up on it because we had to import high-end fullerene gas and minerals to make it break even on fuel costs. It just wasn't worth the effort.

Our T3 manufacturer only built in hisec, as polymers were easily available on the market for far less effort, and often below fuel break-even prices.

I was the only person in my corp that mined regularly. I eventually built a Rorqual in the first C2 because I could, but I would later self-destruct it after the system was sieged and ransomed by a large w-space PvP alliance (we lost a carrier and dread too) and we decided to move out the moment the wormhole bubble camps were unmanned. It didn't see much use; I think I compressed ore with it 4 times.

Later we moved into a C5 and at the peak had 2 carriers and 2 dreads for escalations, I bought another Rorqual (jumped it in, and later jumped it out). I used 2 Hulks and a Bustard to haul. I mined even less as the C5 was much more active and risky with nulsec connections. A bored corpmate would occasionally AFK mine though, and was attacked and lost his ships nearly everytime.

Sleeper sites were the entirety of most members income.

I originally moved into w-space to mine ABC (it is appropriate for the risk level). I would have remained in hisec otherwise. There is nothing CCP can do to get me into nulsec. If I can't do industry and mine in hisec, I'll have to leave EVE. I actually started playing EVE so I could mine.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.09.06 19:18:00 - [532]
 

Originally by: Josie Callahan
Originally by: Ya Huei


3. if u do end up removing abc's from w-space then strip the requirements for those minerals from t3 production chains.




sry m8, but last time I checked, t3 production requires sleeper materials, not minerals of any type except for the r.a.m. tools.


Sry m8, lrn 2 check.

The gas processes, for example, require minerals to create. Look up, for example, a fulleroferrocene reaction and see what the ingredients are. (Hint: One of them is a mineral)

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.09.06 19:22:00 - [533]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 06/09/2011 19:23:11
Originally by: Alabugin

Arent they proposing to make t2 research ONLY possible in nullsec anyway? Therefore if this was done, the ice in highsec would become worthless anyway.

I dont see the cost of ice skyrocketing, as the demand will decrease, as well as the supply.
If highsec poses dont need the ICE for research, then they dont need the ice - its a win/win situation really.

Then the only point of ice mining wouldnt be to make ISK (deter the bot miners) and only to supply nullsec POS fuel.

Right?


Wrong. Wormholes. T3 research and production. Needs fuel, we get the fuels from high sec when bringing things to market. Items come out, fuels come in.

Wormholes require a sufficient supply of ice fuels for your tengus, lokis, etc. Without them, your T3 ships will skyrocket in price as most smaller corps won't be able to survive and the larger ones charge a premium in order to make up the cost increase moving ice to null would cause with fuels.

Joe Risalo
Posted - 2011.09.06 22:00:00 - [534]
 

The only thing moving ice to null sec would do is reduce the amount of fueled capitals on the field.

The bad part of moving ice to null sec alone is that he who controls the ice, controls null sec.

Which sounds a lot like the movie/game Dune, but it's the truth...

The alliance that is able to take over the systems with ice or hold the majority of the ice will be able to field a mass of super carriers, while all the other alliances won't be able to get any capitals on the field.

High sec Ice is a necessity to keep the competition going between null sec alliances.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.09.07 05:37:00 - [535]
 

Originally by: Joe Risalo

The alliance that is able to take over the systems with ice or hold the majority of the ice will be able to field a mass of super carriers, while all the other alliances won't be able to get any capitals on the field.

High sec Ice is a necessity to keep the competition going between null sec alliances.
loooooolll


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