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blankseplocked Warp Disruption Fields and Grid Manipulation - Valid tactic? CCP?
 
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ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.09 17:37:00 - [1]
 

There's been some talk lately of 0.0 PVP'ers using Grid Fu (which involves various tricks to expand the "grid" in space) and then anchoring mobile bubbles hundreds of KM away from the warp-able object. This could have been going on for years but as far as I know it seems to be relatively new tactic.

This results in pilots being "trapped" incredibly far distances then what I normally view as a standard drag or stop bubble tactic. I was under the assumption for many years that bubbles are only effective within 100km of the warp-to-able object (like a gate) and that any farther out the bubble does not work.

Example: You warp from the station to Gate X. If there is a bubble deployed in-front of the gate (between the station and yourself) , ON the gate or BEHIND the gate (also in line with the station) at within 100km of the gate itself, then you will get stuck in the bubble. However it appears now that with extended grids, the bubble can be 250, 500, 750km either in front of or behind the gate.

CCP, can you please chime in?

Some points

- I have not seen this occur, but I have been told of it happening very often recently.
- Grid Manipulation is legal per CCP, however I cannot find any information regarding this tactic coupled with bubble usage.


Some references
Grid Manipulation
Warp Disruption Fields

Beer'Can
Posted - 2011.08.09 17:55:00 - [2]
 

Interdictor bubbles can drag you from warp up to 300km from a celestial (unless this has changed recently)

But as far as i know any anchored bubble will not disrupt warp over 100km. even if its possible to mess up the grid, it still should not catch you over that 100km limit.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.08.09 18:06:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 09/08/2011 18:07:38
Bubbles work at any distance, as long as they are on the same grid as the point you are trying to warp to, and deployed before you initiate warp.

Edit: no, it's not an exploit, it's a valid mechanic. I don't see why would anyone do it though, as you can just warp back to the gate if the bubble is at over 150k away.

Morganta
Posted - 2011.08.09 18:21:00 - [4]
 

probably a good way to increase vis on the gate
might also explain why I was seeing a hurri on a 750km perch last night

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.09 18:51:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 09/08/2011 18:07:38
Bubbles work at any distance, as long as they are on the same grid as the point you are trying to warp to, and deployed before you initiate warp.

Edit: no, it's not an exploit, it's a valid mechanic. I don't see why would anyone do it though, as you can just warp back to the gate if the bubble is at over 150k away.


how do you warp back to a gate if your stuck in a bubble and then tackled?

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.09 18:55:00 - [6]
 

When you level up and get your eggship, obv.

Matalino
Posted - 2011.08.09 19:11:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Matalino on 09/08/2011 19:12:31
Originally by: ShadowandLight
how do you warp back to a gate if your stuck in a bubble and then tackled?
If the bubble is placed behind the gate, then when you turn around to warp back, you leave the blubble in the process. Therefore, there is little point on placing the bubble 150+ km past a gate.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.08.09 20:04:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Matalino
Edited by: Matalino on 09/08/2011 19:12:31
Originally by: ShadowandLight
how do you warp back to a gate if your stuck in a bubble and then tackled?
If the bubble is placed behind the gate, then when you turn around to warp back, you leave the blubble in the process. Therefore, there is little point on placing the bubble 150+ km past a gate.
not quite.

you take some time to turn around, and adding that to response time, fast locking tackling ships, you get quad-webbed and have 30 points on you, stopping you from going anywhere.


unless the campers are stupid and only leave ships that have low scan rez at the bubble instead a few tacklers.

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.09 23:27:00 - [9]
 

up

Pharos Pharos
Posted - 2011.08.10 00:09:00 - [10]
 

As mentioned, bubbles pull anything on line ON THE SAME GRID. there is no arbitrary 100k limit, so of course grid fu can expand their effective range.

On the other hand, as mentioned, anything 150k+ is essentially the same. Either you're tackled and dead, in which case 150k or 750k doesn't matter, or you break free and warp back. What's the issue?

Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.10 00:42:00 - [11]
 

Some say there's an effective range to the ability of a bubble to catch ships. Some say there is no maximum range as long as it's "on grid". ITT, I learned that grid-fu is a valid tactic. Yet, I've heard it's an exploit many times, too.

The issue here is that nobody seam to know for sure what's up with what. Therefore, ShadowandLight is inquiring CCP for the "truth".

1) Does bubbles have or not have a maximum "range"?
2) Is grid manipulation a valid tactic or an exploit?


Pharos Pharos
Posted - 2011.08.10 00:47:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Pharos Pharos on 10/08/2011 00:48:12
Originally by: Sphit Ker

1) Does bubbles have or not have a maximum "range"?
2) Is grid manipulation a valid tactic or an exploit?



1. No - their maximum 'range' is grid. Positive on this.

2. Grid manipulation is a valid tactic with some exceptions - such as hiding POSes from moon warp-in grids, etc. 99% sure on this. Petition a GM if you want specifics, though that may vary depending on GM as well. I doubt you'll get a thorough answer from CCP on the forums.

EDIT: And Shadow and Light is admitting grid-fu is legal and is simply asking about it's legality w/ respect to modifying grids for enhancing bubble usage, which I'm 100% sure is allowable.

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:35:00 - [13]
 

Pinging CCP!

Alxea
Posted - 2011.08.10 04:12:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: ShadowandLight
There's been some talk lately of 0.0 PVP'ers using Grid Fu (which involves various tricks to expand the "grid" in space) and then anchoring mobile bubbles hundreds of KM away from the warp-able object. This could have been going on for years but as far as I know it seems to be relatively new tactic.

This results in pilots being "trapped" incredibly far distances then what I normally view as a standard drag or stop bubble tactic. I was under the assumption for many years that bubbles are only effective within 100km of the warp-to-able object (like a gate) and that any farther out the bubble does not work.

Example: You warp from the station to Gate X. If there is a bubble deployed in-front of the gate (between the station and yourself) , ON the gate or BEHIND the gate (also in line with the station) at within 100km of the gate itself, then you will get stuck in the bubble. However it appears now that with extended grids, the bubble can be 250, 500, 750km either in front of or behind the gate.

CCP, can you please chime in?

Some points

- I have not seen this occur, but I have been told of it happening very often recently.
- Grid Manipulation is legal per CCP, however I cannot find any information regarding this tactic coupled with bubble usage.


Some references
Grid Manipulation
Warp Disruption Fields


So your crying about that you died at a gate 300km away you couldn't get back to in time? U mad bro? Rolling Eyes

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.08.10 04:26:00 - [15]
 

Alright, lets get some clear answers:

- Grid fu in all its glory is legal and valid. This is not an exploit.
- Drag bubbles are always legal; no matter where or how they are placed. There is no such thing as too many bubbles. Even so called **** cages around a POS are not an exploit (a lot of people think that it was an exploit and that bubbles were removed in the past, but this is incorrect; the bubbles were not removed, but a bug that has been fixed some time ago caused bubbles to turn off after downtime when they were put in place right up against a POS shield).
- Drag bubbles have no maximum range; as long as it is on the same grid it will work.

Did I miss any questions?

Also, personally I still prefer to place a drag bubble at about 130km (the edge, not the center of the bubble) from a gate. Further away and a victim may end up at 150km and he will be able to turn and warp if you are not fast enough with a point. I really do not see the overwhelming advantage of a drag bubble at 900km.

Kogh Ayon
Posted - 2011.08.10 06:18:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
I really do not see the overwhelming advantage of a drag bubble at 900km.


Camping a jump bridge without being attacked by the POS

Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.10 07:32:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Alright, lets get some clear answers:

- Grid fu in all its glory is legal and valid. This is not an exploit.
- Drag bubbles are always legal; no matter where or how they are placed. There is no such thing as too many bubbles. Even so called **** cages around a POS are not an exploit (a lot of people think that it was an exploit and that bubbles were removed in the past, but this is incorrect; the bubbles were not removed, but a bug that has been fixed some time ago caused bubbles to turn off after downtime when they were put in place right up against a POS shield).
- Drag bubbles have no maximum range; as long as it is on the same grid it will work.

Did I miss any questions?

Also, personally I still prefer to place a drag bubble at about 130km (the edge, not the center of the bubble) from a gate. Further away and a victim may end up at 150km and he will be able to turn and warp if you are not fast enough with a point. I really do not see the overwhelming advantage of a drag bubble at 900km.



Everything is crystal clear now. Thanks you!

Tempo Char
Posted - 2011.08.10 07:35:00 - [18]
 

Uhm, whatever happened to "you only get caught by the bubble if the bubble is inline and within 100km of your warp spot"?

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.08.10 07:48:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Tempo Char
Uhm, whatever happened to "you only get caught by the bubble if the bubble is inline and within 100km of your warp spot"?

not true... and from what i can remember never has been

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:09:00 - [20]
 

GM Homonoia thank you for responding

2 more questions

1st, Bubbles that are put by hostiles in line with POS's or JB's will force the player to land well outside of the POS's defenses. Is this something CCP feels is ok?

2nd, from what I can tell if someone is trapped using this tactic, they may not show up on another pilots screen unless that pilot is in the same "tunnel of grid" as the hostile and the blue pilot. Therefor the attack can take place without people in the system realizing someone is under attack if they were near the gate in question. Is this also intended?

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.08.10 17:18:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: ShadowandLight

1st, Bubbles that are put by hostiles in line with POS's or JB's will force the player to land well outside of the POS's defenses. Is this something CCP feels is ok?



If they are in system and then warp to the jump bridge at the POS, yes, then this is perfectly fine. Dragging people off of a gate is the same thing as dragging them off of a jump bridge.

Originally by: ShadowandLight

2nd, from what I can tell if someone is trapped using this tactic, they may not show up on another pilots screen unless that pilot is in the same "tunnel of grid" as the hostile and the blue pilot. Therefor the attack can take place without people in the system realizing someone is under attack if they were near the gate in question. Is this also intended?


I am not sure what you mean here. Someone is either on grid or not on grid. If you are on grid you will show up on the overview, if your are not then you will not.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:57:00 - [22]
 

i played with boobles week ago. And booble placed 70km away from gates didn't drag my ship after warp to gates. I finished with distance like 45km from the gates.... Do i miss something?Embarassed

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.10 18:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Miss Rabblt
i played with boobles week ago. And booble placed 70km away from gates didn't drag my ship after warp to gates. I finished with distance like 45km from the gates.... Do i miss something?Embarassed


Did you use a large bubble?

70-45 = 25 (roughly the diameter of a large)

Try small bubbles

Assumptions pending

StuRyan
Posted - 2011.08.10 18:07:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Alright, lets get some clear answers:

- Grid fu in all its glory is legal and valid. This is not an exploit.
- Drag bubbles are always legal; no matter where or how they are placed. There is no such thing as too many bubbles. Even so called **** cages around a POS are not an exploit (a lot of people think that it was an exploit and that bubbles were removed in the past, but this is incorrect; the bubbles were not removed, but a bug that has been fixed some time ago caused bubbles to turn off after downtime when they were put in place right up against a POS shield).
- Drag bubbles have no maximum range; as long as it is on the same grid it will work.

Did I miss any questions?

Also, personally I still prefer to place a drag bubble at about 130km (the edge, not the center of the bubble) from a gate. Further away and a victim may end up at 150km and he will be able to turn and warp if you are not fast enough with a point. I really do not see the overwhelming advantage of a drag bubble at 900km.


I do - JB pos that has medium artilleryies

Theodoric Darkwind
Gallente
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.10 18:57:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Kogh Ayon
Originally by: GM Homonoia
I really do not see the overwhelming advantage of a drag bubble at 900km.


Camping a jump bridge without being attacked by the POS


This ^^

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.08.10 19:07:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Theodoric Darkwind
Originally by: Kogh Ayon
Originally by: GM Homonoia
I really do not see the overwhelming advantage of a drag bubble at 900km.


Camping a jump bridge without being attacked by the POS


This ^^


I was thinking of gate camps, not jump bridges. In the case where a POS is present, yes, then there is a very good reason to sit so far away.

Ciryath Al'Darion
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:10:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Ciryath Al''Darion on 11/08/2011 12:13:06
Grid Fu isn't usually a problem.

What I dont understand is that why you allow very small grids and not make the minimum grid size something like 1000km in radius. This would mean that if you are fighting, you cannot escape it with playing with the grids in most cases.

On some occasions the grid line goes like 70km from station or a control tower. I think some stations stations have this kind of grid line by default. These kinds of artifical limits can cause many hilarious or unfortunate results for fighting.

Is there some techical limitation that the minimum grid size cannot be large enough for normal fighting around static objects, like moons, stations, gates or is this just caused by development team not playing the game and realising that grid line 70km from station is just a bad idea?




Ohh Yeah
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:10:00 - [28]
 

Lmao.

Waffles put pull bubbles 1500km behind TEST jump bridges, get oodles of kills. Shadowandlight dies to Waffles twice in 10 minutes, makes an open petition, cries about it on the TEST forums.

Quote:
So there are some ***gots from broski (bad posters) and niggwaffe (bad posters who fail at elite pvp) handing around unicorn and chimera. They are using gridfu to place drag and stop bubbles 1000k+ off gates because I guess they've got nothing better to do. Couple tengus and all that ****, almost impossibile to probe.

Jaangel
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:51:00 - [29]
 

Im sorry but i have been to gate with 75+ bubbles on them.
this is an exploit confirmed by petition within the last 14 days and the bubbles were removed by CCP.

Please make sure you and all your dev and support teams are on the same page!

also please dont say that 75 plus bubbles is legitamate as it takes the mick when trying to engage anyone around these becomes a lag fest we have been given a hard limit again by petition recently as 6 bubbles ontop of each other i can seen good reason for this to be increased on a pos or a chain leading off a gate but ontop of each other just messes up the graphics and causes lag.

Ohh Yeah
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.08.13 05:03:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jaangel
Im sorry but i have been to gate with 75+ bubbles on them.
this is an exploit confirmed by petition within the last 14 days and the bubbles were removed by CCP.

Please make sure you and all your dev and support teams are on the same page!

also please dont say that 75 plus bubbles is legitamate as it takes the mick when trying to engage anyone around these becomes a lag fest we have been given a hard limit again by petition recently as 6 bubbles ontop of each other i can seen good reason for this to be increased on a pos or a chain leading off a gate but ontop of each other just messes up the graphics and causes lag.


I think you missed the entire issue here.


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