Posted - 2011.08.09 14:38:00 - [31]

 

Originally by: Headerman

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Plus, with no action being taken on botting, people running bots will simply be able to purchase some SPs to maximise isk making skills

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Ah yes..how game breaking..almost as bad as the large alliances exploiting plexes back in the day..or printing isk with the tower exploits..that saw few of them get hit..Many people in certain alliances often run bots etc. or use exploits to gain isk advantage,,funny how most use squiggly writing and drink vodka!

So what if people can purchase some xp..on their own character and give real money direct to ccp..rather than lining the pockets of some guy who runs 10 accounts just to skill up alts for resale...often done by sweatshop methods and providing the ingame isk for RMT...and thus criminal actions.

Maybe CCP could limit per account and per year or such..the amount of sp that could be bought...say 10m per year..including and back-dated to a character's creation..thus,for the vets,they could technically buy 10m sp per year backdated to 03/04/05 etc.
This would allow newer guys to feel more involved and competent earlier in game and yet..would still reward the vets if they so wished..

This would also help people,yes..like myself,who for real life issues has had to take time out of game from time to time and couldn't keep up the sub for whatever reason..

The only real reason I see for many of you saying no etc. is ..that you feel because you played and paid..you deserve something..guess what..you don't!
All customers are equal..in fact newer customers often get better deals than the long terms ones..
The extra potential revenue this could bring in could help bolster CCP to do even more amazing stuff wit Eve..letting the game evolve more and more..
Maybe it's about time some of you evolved too instead of having this rigid "I'm elite" mentality..

Posted - 2011.08.09 14:46:00 - [33]

 

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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. . . because the wonderful skilling system in this game is all that keeps you playing? Or is it because you might actually have to prove your skill against the people who bought enough skillpoints to compete with you?

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Skilling system is fine. I can be 80%-90% as effective one month in as a frigate pilot as an 8 year old toon.

I don't engage in combat if I can avoid it.

I'd quit because the value of the game will have been irrevocably lost due to going pay2win.

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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Originally by: Velicitia

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I'd really like if if you'd stop speaking for me, thank you.

I want to pay $15 per month for a game where what I choose matters, both to myself/personal future, and may even matter in the larger game.

I want to pay $15 for a game where if I have this "brilliant" idea and it pays off, I can be part of the elite... or if it fails, I'm stuck in a rookie area kicking my own ass for it.

I want to pay $15 for a game where I'm not told I can't go "over there", or that I can't kill that annoying guy in local (or equiv) for the hell of it.

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So, why do you play EVE Online? All those conditions are present in many other games. Have you played first person shooters? You can kill the annoying guy and then rub your ass in his corpse's face.

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I could play an FPS, yes (and if DUST doesn't suck donkey balls, I may purchase it). After running "Blood Gulch" or any other FPS map for the 900th time, what long-standing mark have I made on the game?

Or perhaps I could go to WOW... (yeah, right ) ... hmm... grind, grind, grind and then... meh, nothing.

At least here, I can leave the (relative) safety of empire and attempt to carve out a home for myself in outlaw space, either through being a competent industrial character and supplying my corp... or maybe actually training a few combat skills.

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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i.e. You want the skillpoints you PAID for. You want skillpoints without exerting any effort other than updating your queue and paying CCP.

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no... I just like the fact I don't have to grind daily to "keep up" (see:WOW, etc)

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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You don't play sports, do you? Many sports have scarcely changed in a hundred years, yet people still play and enjoy them precisely because when the rules and conditions of the game don't change, your strategies do. Weird, huh? Same ball. Same field. Same number of players. Same rules, etc. Vastly different outcomes from game to game.

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Play football with friends. Organised leagues here are ****.

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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And, be real. In EVE, your actions have no effect. You're just shoveling sand around in the sandbox, because someone with more skillpoints or ISK or fleet-members always comes along and knocks down your castle. Maybe this isn't true for you, and maybe that's why you don't understand why EVE could use a change.

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I've seen my share of sov fights. some won, some lost... but they had an impact. Maybe not game changing, but the fights still impacted a few thousand... if they disrupted supply lines back to empire, than all of new eden is affected.

regardless, that's a *significant* impact when compared to maybe 30 people in a FPS fight, or the few thousand on a sharded game.

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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I understand you guys were here first, but if you love the game so much, then I'd think you would want to see it grow and flourish. I wouldn't think you'd just up and quit at the drop of a hat.

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If the game changes so significantly that EVE is not EVE any more, then there's no reason to stay. I've a good number of other hobbies to fill my time.

I can do without growth at the expense of EVE. '07 toon here. Many people came before me, and many have come after... the "you don't want to lose your advantage" argument is ****.

Posted - 2011.08.09 15:33:00 - [35]

 

Originally by: Velicitia

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Originally by: CanIPost Please

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. . . because the wonderful skilling system in this game is all that keeps you playing? Or is it because you might actually have to prove your skill against the people who bought enough skillpoints to compete with you?

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Skilling system is fine. I can be 80%-90% as effective one month in as a frigate pilot as an 8 year old toon.

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So you're saying that somebody needs to play the game for a month, and commit to paying for it, *before* they can be reasonably effective at PvP in the smallest ships.

You know, the old system where every toon started out with 800K SP and a specialization out of the gate was much better than the current mess. I could have a combat-effective toon in half an hour, and if I didn't like the way that one came out I could try again.

It was much better for learning the basics of the game than the current setup where you have to spend weeks as a "level 0" character unable to do anything well.

Posted - 2011.08.09 15:39:00 - [37]

 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

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So you're saying that somebody needs to play the game for a month, and commit to paying for it, *before* they can be reasonably effective at PvP in the smallest ships.

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No. He's saying that after a month, you're more than reasonably effective and in a position to compete with much older players. A mere "reasonably effective" happens after a week or two.

Quote:

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You know, the old system where every toon started out with 800K SP and a specialization out of the gate was much better than the current mess.

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…aside from the fact that it didn't offer any specialisation and mainly just wasted SP that could have been put to far better use.

Posted - 2011.08.09 16:00:00 - [39]

 

Originally by: De'Veldrin

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If you don't understand why, you don't understand what separates Eve from the mass of other MMOs out there, and what attracted a large number of us to the game in the first place.

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I don't CARE what attracted any of you to this game, honestly. I can only speak for myself, but in doing so, I can illuminate the motivations of the class of players that I am a member of.

Originally by: De'Veldrin

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People haven't played Eve for 3, 4, 5 + years because it's a space MMO

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You mean that YOU haven't played EVE for 3, 4, 5+ years because it's a space MMO. That was EXACTLY why I started playing it.

Originally by: De'Veldrin

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You can't win in EVE

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Really . . .

Originally by: Tippia

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Ok, so you really don't want it to be a fair mechanic, in other words — only something that well-off or deeply invested players (ie. not new ones) will use.

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Look at what you said: Only rich or more senior players would be able to succeed . . . well, as it is now, according to you, only more senior players are able to succeed. At least changing it to allow rich players to succeed, too, would be a step in the right direction.

Originally by: Velicitia

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I can be 80%-90% as effective one month in as a frigate pilot as an 8 year old toon . . . I'd quit because the value of the game will have been irrevocably lost due to going pay2win.

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Look at what you said: A player with a million skillpoints can be as effective as a player with 100 million skillpoints . . . I'd quit because the value of the game will have been irrevocably lost due to a 1 month old player being able to pay to have as many skillpoints as an 8 year old player, and having that many skillpoints equates to winning in EVE.

And, no you ****ing can't be 80-90% as effective at 1 month in a frigate as an 8 year old player.

Originally by: Velicitia

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I could play an FPS, yes (and if DUST doesn't suck donkey balls, I may purchase it). After running "Blood Gulch" or any other FPS map for the 900th time, what long-standing mark have I made on the game?

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Almost a decade ago, now, I played a sci-fi FPS. It didn't get any patches. The stat boards weren't functional. The players numbered in the hundreds, maybe low thousands at first. We played the same maps every day. But, we had fun. No two games were ever the same. I remember many of their names, still, and some of their voices. I remember tactics, and engagements, and matches that I played, and it still makes me smile. And, if I had had to see the game change and the way I played it change just to keep it going, I wouldn't have hesitated to say "okay". And, it is my great conviction that if you asked any of those people who I played with who the best player on the field was in that game, they would tell you my name. One day, Tranquility will be a pile of junk in a landfill. What mark does any of us leave?

Originally by: Velicitia

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Putting time, thought, and effort into the game is hard. Multi-accounting is easier.

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You don't say.

Originally by: Velicitia

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No, she said as the true players leave, there's little to keep someone who just P2W in a game around.

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What makes you guys think you are the only "true" players? And, no, that's not what she said . . . she didn't say "pay-to-win" players. She said "new ones".

Finally, I'll say it yet again, since it is still not getting across to some of you:

SKILLPOINTS MATTER IN THIS GAME.

Deal with it.

Posted - 2011.08.09 16:18:00 - [41]

 

Per EVEMon:
Minmatar Frigate I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Minmatar Frigate II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
Minmatar Frigate III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
Energy Systems Operation I (8 minutes, 20 seconds)
Energy Systems Operation II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
Energy Systems Operation III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
Energy Management I (25 minutes)
Energy Management II (1 hour, 56 minutes, 26 seconds)
Energy Management III (10 hours, 58 minutes, 34 seconds)
Energy Grid Upgrades I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Energy Grid Upgrades II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
Electronics Upgrades I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Long Range Targeting I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Long Range Targeting II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
Targeting I (8 minutes, 20 seconds)
Targeting II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
Targeting III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
Targeting IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 50 seconds)
Signature Analysis I (8 minutes, 20 seconds)
Signature Analysis II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
Signature Analysis III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
Evasive Maneuvering I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Evasive Maneuvering II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
Warp Drive Operation I (8 minutes, 20 seconds)
Warp Drive Operation II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
Mechanic III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
Hull Upgrades I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Hull Upgrades II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
Hull Upgrades III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
Shield Management I (25 minutes)
Shield Management II (1 hour, 56 minutes, 26 seconds)
Shield Management III (10 hours, 58 minutes, 34 seconds)
Repair Systems I (8 minutes, 20 seconds)
Repair Systems II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
Repair Systems III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
Gunnery III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
Rapid Firing I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Rapid Firing II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
Sharpshooter I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Motion Prediction I (16 minutes, 40 seconds)
Motion Prediction II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
Motion Prediction III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
Small Projectile Turret I (8 minutes, 20 seconds)
Small Projectile Turret II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
Small Projectile Turret III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
Gunnery IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 50 seconds)
Trajectory Analysis I (41 minutes, 40 seconds)
Trajectory Analysis II (3 hours, 14 minutes, 4 seconds)
Minmatar Frigate IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 40 seconds)
Energy Systems Operation IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 50 seconds)
Energy Management IV (2 days, 14 hours, 5 minutes, 30 seconds)
Energy Grid Upgrades III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
Energy Grid Upgrades IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 40 seconds)
Long Range Targeting III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
Long Range Targeting IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 40 seconds)
Signature Analysis IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 50 seconds)
Evasive Maneuvering III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
Evasive Maneuvering IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 40 seconds)
Warp Drive Operation III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
Warp Drive Operation IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 50 seconds)
Mechanic IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 50 seconds)
Hull Upgrades IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 40 seconds)
Shield Management IV (2 days, 14 hours, 5 minutes, 30 seconds)
Repair Systems IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 50 seconds)
Rapid Firing III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
Rapid Firing IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 40 seconds)
Sharpshooter II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
Sharpshooter III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
Sharpshooter IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 40 seconds)
Motion Prediction IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 40 seconds)
Small Projectile Turret IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 50 seconds)

Total time: 31 days, 12 hours, 53 minutes, 4 seconds

Skills all "max out" at level 5, 4/5 = 0.8 (80%). TBH though, that last level in the skill is usually only a difference in effective DPS/tank/etc of 5% or so.

Posted - 2011.08.09 16:27:00 - [43]

 

Originally by: Thanatha

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[...] How about the ability to buy skill-points for real-world money ? [...]

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In most games, your "level" depends on how much effort you put into the game. More work means higher levels faster. The only analogue to this in EVE is property and ISK.

Skilltraining is different, and you're actually already paying for it. There's a restriction on speed, and this is really the only thing that distinguishes a veteran from a new player... unless, like, they have a bunch of useless skills trained.

A reason why people see paying for SP as an invasion is it disregards something very meaningful to the community. Corporations typically specify a certain amount of SP, but it's not for what a player might be able to do; someone who's done PvP or Industry their whole career who then switches to the other one will probably be unable to accomplish the new thing as well as others who have trained for it. It's about seniority and an experience of the EVE environment in general.

Buying characters actually infringes on this, but to buy a character a person needs to have a lot of ISK. To have enough ISK a person either needs to work for it in EVE and gain experience or buy PLEX cards. The amount of PLEX a person buys is dependent on how interested they are in EVE and unless they're so wealthy that cash is almost meaningless they are still valuable to other players in their optimism alone.

I know, we all know how frustrating it is to start off feeble and generally unrespected, but strength and attribution are things we all need to earn over time and with effort. This is why you can not buy SP and why you never should be able too. Gaining SP needs to go in hand with socialization, building cliques and communities and earning a place in EVE that even CCP won't have the right to deny from you.

Try to buy some patience, instead.

Posted - 2011.08.09 16:31:00 - [45]

 

A) He's incapable of having his mind changed through logic and fact
B) he's only continuing because it stirs the pot
C) Someone kicked over his sandcastle and he can't use moms credit card for p2w revenge, and is raging over it.

Posted - 2011.08.09 16:33:00 - [47]

 

Originally by: Velicitia

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Per EVEMon:
Minmatar Frigate I (16 minutes, 40 seconds) . . .

Total time: 31 days, 12 hours, 53 minutes, 4 seconds

Skills all "max out" at level 5, 4/5 = 0.8 (80%). TBH though, that last level in the skill is usually only a difference in effective DPS/tank/etc of 5% or so.

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I won't go into it too much, but that Rifter can't even fit an AB.

Posted - 2011.08.09 16:35:00 - [49]

 

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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Originally by: De'Veldrin

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People haven't played Eve for 3, 4, 5 + years because it's a space MMO

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You mean that YOU haven't played EVE for 3, 4, 5+ years because it's a space MMO. That was EXACTLY why I started playing it.

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My statement, unlike yours, was not about what attracted me to the game in the first place; it's about what kept me, and many others, in the game as long as we have been.

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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Originally by: De'Veldrin

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You can't win in EVE

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Really . . .

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I never said that, bro. And way to take a few words, mix them up, and present them out of context.
Let's post the whole thing first and then we'll discuss:

Originally by: De'Veldrin

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And this is exactly why we know you don't get it - you don't win Eve. You can't - it's not like chess, or monopoly, or any game with a defined "win" condition.

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You can certainly achieve victories in Eve. If I set a goal and I achieve it, I've accomplished something. If my fleet pwns another fleet, that's certainly a victory of a specific sort. But you can't "win the game" because the game never ends (until the server shuts off, at which point none of this will matter anyway). You might destroy my ship, or beat me in a market, or scam me out of my hard earned ISK, and tomorrow, I'll turn around and do the same to someone else, or someone else will do the same to you.

None of which matters, in the end, because you won't listen to it. You have your fingers stuck in your electronic ears and are screaming la-la-la just as loudly as you can so that any ideas that contradict your own don't accidentally make their way inside.

Posted - 2011.08.09 16:58:00 - [51]

 

Originally by: De'Veldrin

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You have your fingers stuck in your electronic ears and are screaming la-la-la just as loudly as you can so that any ideas that contradict your own don't accidentally make their way inside.

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I'm listening. I just don't buy you guys' bull**** about skillpoints not mattering. Neither do I buy your bull**** about skillpoints for money breaking the game.

This fool gives us a Rifter that can't even fit an afterburner and tries to tell us just a few of these babies will take down 100 million skillpoint player. GTFOH. That's an insult to the intelligence of anyone reading it and you know it.

If you guys want to keep your advantage, fine. If you guys will quit if CCP takes away your advantage, fine. But, just cut the bull**** already, man.

SKILLPOINTS MATTER IN THIS GAME. Say it with me, people.

Posted - 2011.08.09 17:24:00 - [53]

 

Originally by: CanIPost Please

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I'm listening. I just don't buy you guys' bull**** about skillpoints not mattering.

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…and that's entirely your problem, because you don't quite get how the skill system works.

Quote:

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If you guys will quit if CCP takes away your advantage, fine.

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You still don't get it, do you? What you're suggesting would cement the advantage you think it's solving. It wouldn't help new players in the slightest.

Quote:

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SKILLPOINTS MATTER IN THIS GAME. Say it with me, people.

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Only clueless newbies who assume that EVE works like a class/level/XP-based RPG think skillpoints matter when it comes to achieving things. There, I said it.

Originally by: Newt Rondanse

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And realizing it is a multi-player game is all well and good, but when you are a newbie you are in a system that is mostly inhabited by other newbies who is going to pass on this wisdom?

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The other newbies who have just learned the same and the older players who are still in those newbie corps (or in newbie chat), getting their alts trained up. Not to mention the people on the forums and on other EVE-related sites.

Quote:

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Besides, you expect people to come up with and execute a skillplan when they are still trying to figure out "so, how do I kill things?"

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Yes. It's not all that hard, tbh.

Quote:

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So cutting the skillpoints that a new character starts with, starting the sandbox at Level 0 with a loincloth and a pointy stick, isn't doing the game any favors.

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…except that reducing the amount of starting SP and giving people a better foundation on which to build their characters, as well as new and improved ways to impart the knowledge to do so, is one of the better things that have happened to new players in the last four years. The old system only really benefitted older players who knew what they were after and who wanted to build a special-purpose alt; the new system instead benefits new players who want to start out a main character.

Quote:

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Putting in a way for players who manage to make it past that point to waste money on poorly conceived skillplans doesn't seem so bad from my perspective.

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You mean aside from the fact that spending that money wouldn't help them with the actual issue they have: learning to play the game, which is best done by interacting with the game itself and its players. Because that's what's being proposed here: to rob new players because they don't know better yet and at the same time boost older players who do know better.

Posted - 2011.08.09 18:23:00 - [55]

 

Edited by: CanIPost Please on 09/08/2011 18:25:18

Originally by: Tippia

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. . . you don't quite get how the skill system works . . . Only clueless newbies who assume that EVE works like a class/level/XP-based RPG think skillpoints matter when it comes to achieving things. There, I said it.

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I started playing this game on October 31 of 2009, Apocrypha. I biomassed my main character in late 2010 with 15 million or so skillpoints. I could fly any T1 battleship in the game. I had several billion ISK worth of assets. I'd lived in null, low, and high sec (day tripped in a few wormholes, even came out of a few of them intact). I'd probably "PVP"ed more in a year than most players will in their entire EVE life. I don't know who you think is a newbie, but it ain't me.

Originally by: Tippia

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You still don't get it, do you? What you're suggesting would cement the advantage you think it's solving. It wouldn't help new players in the slightest.

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How convenient to your argument. How would it cement the advantage I think it's solving?

Originally by: Tippia

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Quote:

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So cutting the skillpoints that a new character starts with, starting the sandbox at Level 0 with a loincloth and a pointy stick, isn't doing the game any favors.

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…except that reducing the amount of starting SP and giving people a better foundation on which to build their characters, as well as new and improved ways to impart the knowledge to do so, is one of the better things that have happened to new players in the last four years. The old system only really benefitted older players who knew what they were after and who wanted to build a special-purpose alt; the new system instead benefits new players who want to start out a main character.

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Fewer skillpoints = better . . . double-u tee eff.

Originally by: Tippia

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Quote:

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Putting in a way for players who manage to make it past that point to waste money on poorly conceived skillplans doesn't seem so bad from my perspective.

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You mean aside from the fact that spending that money wouldn't help them with the actual issue they have: learning to play the game, which is best done by interacting with the game itself and its players. Because that's what's being proposed here: to rob new players because they don't know better yet and at the same time boost older players who do know better.

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If spending the money won't help them, then why do you care so much? And, no, we're not proposing robbing new players. Maybe some older players would like to top off a level of something or jump-start a new character. You can't value something based on the worst possible use of it imaginable. OMG, you are so full of it.

Posted - 2011.08.10 00:07:00 - [57]

 

Posted - 2011.08.10 01:09:00 - [59]

 

Originally by: Headerman

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Originally by: Jhonen Senraedi

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The only real reason I see for many of you saying no etc. is ..that you feel because you played and paid..you deserve something..guess what..you don't!
All customers are equal..in fact newer customers often get better deals than the long terms ones..
The extra potential revenue this could bring in could help bolster CCP to do even more amazing stuff wit Eve..letting the game evolve more and more..
Maybe it's about time some of you evolved too instead of having this rigid "I'm elite" mentality..

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Must be the crack talking there.

There is only 1 truth in this game, everyone pays a subscription either with real money or isk. I pay with money, as do a great many others.

I do not want to play a GAME where someone else can come along, spend alot of dollars on SPs and fly a titan within a few hours of being new. I don't want to play a GAME where anyone can buy a single character advantage.

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Only crack talking is the one in your ass to be honest..
You think people cant buy a titan within a day now?
...They can buy plexes..sell them...and then buy a character...so..yes..your worst nightmare is already realised!