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Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.08.08 02:36:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Saul Dhampir


So the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown no longer fight for the Amarr Empire... Ok.




Mmm, I think you're over-simplifying it a bit. I've talked with a few Knighthood members on The Summit comms channel and they seem much more progressive as far as Empire-aligned groups go. I don't think they fight just for the Amarr Empire, but a more progressive and better Empire and cluster overall.

Just my 0.02 ISK. I wouldn't have even commented but I've taken a liking to some in the Knighthood, so if you're here to bad-mouth them I'll obviously comment in their favor. Of course such an action is biased, but I'm only human.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.08 13:25:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
Originally by: Saul Dhampir


So the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown no longer fight for the Amarr Empire... Ok.


Mmm, I think you're over-simplifying it a bit. I've talked with a few Knighthood members on The Summit comms channel and they seem much more progressive as far as Empire-aligned groups go. I don't think they fight just for the Amarr Empire, but a more progressive and better Empire and cluster overall.


You see, that's the thing with the KoTMC. They keep [their] in-space policies separate from [their] social policies[1] - they can talk very nicely about how they just want understanding between the cultures, how they do not think slavery is good (even though they have some really strange ideas about that), etc. etc.. But when they undock and act, they act to protect the same institutions they just kindly criticized, they act to invade other nations, they act to attack industrials and civilians. Which is fine, mind you. We are at war. This is what war is. But it still makes them actively fight for the Empire and for slavery, no matter what they like to say when you catch them out of pod.

I sometimes think the main reason they talk nicely to everyone is simply a very cunning propaganda act. Having their CEO say things like I am not going to go so far as to say we also fight them by undermining their capsuleer through social interaction, but our practices in this regard are not without reason puts a lot of their actions into perspective. They have achieved a number of defections with that, good people suddenly fighting their former friends because they have "taken a liking to some in the Knighthood." If they were actively interested in changing the Empire to be less barbaric, they'd not spend the vast majority of their time fighting for the crusade against the Republic, but working to change the Empire from within to make this war useless.

Then again, there is a very diverse group of pilots within the Knighthood. Some of them are rather extreme, some are much more reasonable (Ms. Farel here for example). I have no idea what holds them together. The Knighthood is currently one of the strongest forces for the status quo in the Empire, and the handful of pilots within the Knighthood who'd rather see a change seem to not mind that.

Quote:
Of course such an action is biased, but I'm only human.


Beautiful phrase for this thread, thank you for bringing a smile to my face.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.08 13:44:00 - [33]
 

Mister Sadik,

I can see your points, you've made them before and adequately defend them. However, I would like to bring to light a different perspective on the actions of many of the Knighthood's pilots in this regard.

We can strive toward reform and making a better Empire with our efforts, but what good would it serve if that Empire is burned to ashes before the change takes effect? You know as well as I that many in the TLF have made it quite clear that they will never cease aggression against the Empire, until it is nothing but a "stain in history." It is not the "release of all slaves" that they are seeking, it's the utter destruction of the Empire.

Therefore, we have to defend the Empire and the people we're trying to reform in order to have the time and opportunity to bring about that change. To do so requires that we fight on the front lines, defending the people of the Empire and the Empire itself. If we only fought to change from within while forces besiege the borders from the outside, our efforts could quite possibly simply be in vain.

I am not expecting you to agree with what is being said here, all I am doing is explaining the reason many of us continue to fight in the war.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.08 14:29:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus

We can strive toward reform and making a better Empire with our efforts, but what good would it serve if that Empire is burned to ashes before the change takes effect?



None (well, in your perception; I suspect some people might have differing opinions). As I said, your actions are quite understandable. Both of our nations have maneuvered themselves over many centuries into a position where a "peaceful solution" is difficult to achieve.

I was not attacking the fact that the Knighthood is actively working on the destruction of the Republic, but that your pilots try to give a self-image of not really wanting that. Which might be true, but your actions speak otherwise.

Quote:
To do so requires that we fight on the front lines, defending the people of the Empire and the Empire itself. If we only fought to change from within while forces besiege the borders from the outside, our efforts could quite possibly simply be in vain.


The Knighthood is "defending the Empire" deep in Metropolis as well as helping the Caldari fight the Federation. Again, this is perfectly fine and the smart thing to do on your part. But the reality of this war means that you are not just "defending the people of the Empire", you are commited to a war for subjugation, enslavement, and reclaiming, all the while happily accepting the defeat of the Federation as collateral damage for the glory of the Empire of Slavery.

What confuses me is that a number of your pilots do not like this course of action, but instead of saying "we do not like it but we do what we have to do", you try to pose yourself as the "friendly Amarr" - which just is completely contradictory to your actions.


The fact of the matter is that the Knighthood is currently among the biggest threats to the freedom and existence of the Minmatar race, and the vast majority of what your pilots do is supporting just that outcome.

What confuses me is the incredible difference between that reality and the perception on this fine forum.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.08 15:18:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 08/08/2011 15:19:24
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
If they were actively interested in changing the Empire to be less barbaric, they'd not spend the vast majority of their time fighting for the crusade against the Republic, but working to change the Empire from within to make this war useless.


Oh, not that again.

What makes you think we do not work from within ? By our very acts we show both our dedication to defensive stances and to the Empire, which gives us enough credibility to be worth of political consideration, thus gaining an invaluable weight on "the within". All this, without even straining our ideals.

On a sidenote, the Empire is no more barbaric than any other empire.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Then again, there is a very diverse group of pilots within the Knighthood. Some of them are rather extreme, some are much more reasonable (Ms. Farel here for example). I have no idea what holds them together. The Knighthood is currently one of the strongest forces for the status quo in the Empire, and the handful of pilots within the Knighthood who'd rather see a change seem to not mind that.


I thank you for your appreciation, though you might seem to forget something : you can not change so much from within if you do not speak and live with the minds you want to change.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

I was not attacking the fact that the Knighthood is actively working on the destruction of the Republic, but that your pilots try to give a self-image of not really wanting that. Which might be true, but your actions speak otherwise.


I do not see how. Case by case, maybe. On a general appreciation of the organization, definitly not. The balance is absolutely positive in that regard.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

The Knighthood is "defending the Empire" deep in Metropolis as well as helping the Caldari fight the Federation. Again, this is perfectly fine and the smart thing to do on your part. But the reality of this war means that you are not just "defending the people of the Empire", you are commited to a war for subjugation, enslavement, and reclaiming, all the while happily accepting the defeat of the Federation as collateral damage for the glory of the Empire of Slavery.

What confuses me is that a number of your pilots do not like this course of action, but instead of saying "we do not like it but we do what we have to do", you try to pose yourself as the "friendly Amarr" - which just is completely contradictory to your actions.



Please know that even if we are a minority on the Council to think so, not everyone currently condone these operations that we consider purely to be for pragmatism's sake. As in any Amarrian council, ethics can differ between parties. Eventually, you have to follow what the majority decides, or what the leader decides.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
The fact of the matter is that the Knighthood is currently among the biggest threats to the freedom and existence of the Minmatar race, and the vast majority of what your pilots do is supporting just that outcome.


Uh... what ?

I think you are dreaming. You sometimes sound like someone, otherwise reasonable either, that is absolutely looking for a casus belli, no matter its coherence.



[edited for formating]

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.08 15:39:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Oh, not that again.


Hello, Ms. Farel.
I'm glad to hear of you again as well.

Quote:
What makes you think we do not work from within?


Oh, I'm sure you do. I just don't think it compares well to the vast majority of what your pilots do otherwise.

Quote:
On a sidenote, the Empire is no more barbaric than any other empire.


We could now devolve into a beautiful discussion on what "barbaric" means (again). I am sure it would involve "look, the Republic is not totally white, hence everything is equally black". Neither you nor me will change our minds, as we are both loyal to our nations. So I guess we can skip it?

Quote:
I thank you for your appreciation, though you might seem to forget something : you can not change so much from within if you do not speak and live with the minds you want to change.


I'm not sure if I am forgetting something.

There are a number of rather progressive capsuleer corporations within the Empire, and I have known a number of rather progressive Amarrians. Even believers in the Evil God who are pretty progressive as far as that goes.

None of them sit down for a cup of tea to tell me how much they would like the Empire to abolish slavery and turn to civilization only to stand up and fight for the enslavement of my people an hour later.

Quote:
Please know that even if we are a minority on the Council to think so, not everyone currently condone these operations


This is exactly what confuses me about your (personal) actions. You, personally, do not wish for the enslavement of my people. You, personally, do wish for a peaceful end of this war, a situation in which both of our nations can coexist peacefully. This is good, and I applaud this desire (which I share, even though I consider it an unlikely outcome at this point). A number of people around you - a majority, even? - your corpmates, are actively working against this goal. Still you defend them, you stick to them.

Why?

Quote:
I think you are dreaming. You sometimes sound like someone, otherwise reasonable either, that is absolutely looking for a casus belli, no matter its coherence.


I do not need a case for war. We already are at war. Thousands of people die in this war, every day. People are enslaved and liberated. The war is already upon us - there is no need for a case.

You sometimes seem to forget that, despite fighting just that war.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.08 17:38:00 - [37]
 

Mister Sadik,

You claim, repeatedly I might add, that we are actively working against the goal for peace and resolution simply because we are not laying down arms and letting the Matari aggressors invade our Empire and its people. Really?

The facts are plain. The Knighthood works toward reform from within while fighting against the enemies on the outside of the Empire. That involves your corporation and everyone in the TLF. Who, by the way, are consistently attacking into the Empire.

Attacks on the Empire will not be tolerated and cannot be tolerated while we work to reform it, lest there be nothing left to reform. You claim that there is no defense in attacking into Republic space and fighting against the capsuleers and military vessels there, I say you're wrong.

Fighting you in your home space keeps you out of ours. That gives us time and reprieve in order to do exactly what you claim we're not doing on the inside while you're distracted defending yourselves instead of attacking us.

If you want to actually assist in peaceful resolution instead of just discrediting our efforts, then keep your people out of Empire space while we work on reform. I know you don't have the authority to do that, the same goes for us. The Knighthood is doing what it can, where it can, with what it has available. Defacing our efforts with your arguments here isn't going to help us along. Period.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.08 17:55:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Fighting you in your home space keeps you out of ours. That gives us time and reprieve in order to do exactly what you claim we're not doing on the inside while you're distracted defending yourselves instead of attacking us.


To use your own words:

You strive toward reform and making a better Empire with your efforts, but what good would it serve if my people are enslaved and killed before the change takes effect?

That's the crux of the problem. You are working towards just that goal. You might also work towards change of the Empire from within (good on you), but the vast majority of the efforts of the KotMC are directed at the war. For good reason, as you say, but it still means that the KotMC is an invasion force working towards enslaving and killing my people much more than any kind of "internal change" within the Empire. A fact that you like to try and hide behind all sorts of good rhetorics which sound great until you undock.

(It's amusing that you manage to, in the same post, first try to explain to me that it's perfectly ok for you to invade our space while working for peace, but then request us to stop invading your space if we want peace. I thought better of you, Mr. Valadeus.)

Quote:
Defacing our efforts with your arguments here isn't going to help us along. Period.


I am afraid that, based on what I have seen the KotMC do (as opposed to what you say), I am not particularly eager to "help you along."

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.08 18:02:00 - [39]
 

Tch. And this topic (intended as a shameless plug or not) had potential.


Mr. Valadeus, Mr. Sadik, Ms. Farel:

It should be screamingly obvious to all three of you that your present discussion (1) has nothing at all to do with the original topic, (2) is both distracting and detracting from any conversation on that original topic, and (3) is probably worthy of a topic all its own-- if yet another Amarr/Matari acrimony festival will do anybody any good....

That being so, would you kindly take it elsewhere, or else shut up, reload, and get back to killing each other?

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.08 18:58:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 08/08/2011 19:48:12
Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 08/08/2011 19:00:39
Mr. Sadik,

I was attempting to make a point that neither of us could keep our respective people out of either's space no matter how hard we tried. We are doing what we can in what ways we can, I am sorry if that simply doesn't sit with you, but it's really all we have to offer.

Miss Jenneth,

A valid point. Forgive me.

Laerise
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.08 19:55:00 - [41]
 

Excelent work so far!

Keep on goading the talky monkey, in the meantime I shall have some slaves pick and peel more grapes...

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.08 20:22:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
That being so, would you kindly take it elsewhere, or else shut up, reload, and get back to killing each other?


You are of course right. Apologies, I'll stop this discussion here.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.08 21:55:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Tch. And this topic (intended as a shameless plug or not) had potential.


Mr. Valadeus, Mr. Sadik, Ms. Farel:

It should be screamingly obvious to all three of you that your present discussion (1) has nothing at all to do with the original topic, (2) is both distracting and detracting from any conversation on that original topic, and (3) is probably worthy of a topic all its own-- if yet another Amarr/Matari acrimony festival will do anybody any good....

That being so, would you kindly take it elsewhere, or else shut up, reload, and get back to killing each other?


It was indeed, a topic with potential, until :

1) Some Star Fraction thought it was best to use it for his own informercials instead of actually participing to the discussion in itself.

2) Mr Sadik came to relaunch once again a debate we already had somewhere else. As much as I would like to drop the debate here, it is a pure matter of public image that will oblige me to answer to hostile accusations. I shall open a new discussion to make my answers.

My apologies to not have done so in the first place.

Hound Crendraven
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:02:00 - [44]
 

Now now, the Star Fraction plug was on topic and a welcome addition to the thread. Lyn Farel, you furthered derailing long before Sadik or Star Fraction did. Getting hostile about Sadik's posts, which are both well written, well backed and constructed, does not further your cause much at all.

Do you have any particular views on the original topic, Ms Jenneth? I know you're something of a philosopher on the matter.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:54:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Hound Crendraven
Do you have any particular views on the original topic, Ms Jenneth? I know you're something of a philosopher on the matter.


A few, but I'd need an answer to this question, first:

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Mr. Crenhaven:

I'm curious what characteristics you expected a posthuman to have. How did you expect us to differ-- or did you?


It seemed to have gotten a bit buried, hence my annoyance.

Hound Crendraven
Posted - 2011.08.09 00:11:00 - [46]
 

It did get drowned, it'd appear. No, I didn't really expect it to differ. I have been pretty much everywhere in my life, so far. The last two decades have been spent writing and subsequently traveling to a new area with or without local authorities on my heels. It's been interesting, thought-provoking and fascinating. Even pleasing at times. It's also been an education in just how ridiculous we really are, with the various delusions everyone carries around and filter the world through before being able to even survive the onslaught of truth and reality.

The one place I hadn't gone, the one place I hadn't already debunked the majority of illusions and delusions both, or at the very least documenting them for posterity was among the capsuleers. The amount of talk about capsuleers differ from place to place and so does the perception of them. Angry Gods, Devious Devils, Criminals and Saints, and almost never can you find someone who acknowledges that they're still human.

Having seen pretty much everything of humanity, that particular challenge was alluring.
I did not expect it to differ, no. What I didn't quite expect was that I was so right.

Does that answer your question, ms Jenneth?

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:17:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 09/08/2011 02:30:28
Originally by: Hound Crendraven
Does that answer your question, ms Jenneth?


It does, thank you.

Given the perspective that you came in from, it's not surprising that you do not see a difference. I'm not saying that you would have seen one if you'd expected it; I'm saying that the differences are subtle enough that even those of us whose careers have lasted for years still debate whether there is any real difference at all.

To understand the distinction-- well, how best to explain it....

Capsuleers, with only a few possible exceptions, are originally made from humans. Any capsuleer who's ever been podded, and that means the vast majority of us, is an imperfect duplicate of a dead human being whose pod was opened into space.

The resulting creature is an almost exact copy residing in an artificial husk. This husk was never born, nor did it mature as human children do. The low-grade ones are tissue grown in a vat from a nutrient broth or reprocessed nonhuman biomass. The high-grade ones are genetically scrubbed and repatterned cadavers, with the requirements for the quality of the corpse gradually increasing with the quality of the clone.

The cloning companies use real human bone, again harvested from the dead, where possible. Where it's not, they use osteoplastic, which is heat-molded to match the client's original skeleton.

The creature that inhabits this shell is not obliged to stay in it, either. It can wander from body to body, sometimes even illegally taking over clones not copied from its progenitor-- what we call a "clonejack."

This informational blot, this spark copied from the human original, is what we call an "infomorph" (not my term; it was actually brought to my attention by a skillbook, of all things). It's essentially software that only runs on a human brain or an emulator of same, supported, respectively, by a clone or the necessary computer hardware for an illegally "uploaded" person.

To sum up, a cloned capsuleer is literally the mind of a dead human imperfectly copied into a patchwork homunculus.

Now, knowing what we were made from, it should be no surprise that we continue to act mostly like the humans we were copied from. Our minds are nearly exact copies; any differences will be subtle. My favorite source for those distinctions is the combat pilot, especially the sort who predominantly hunts humans on contract.

Such a pilot is essentially an assassin armed only with weapons of mass destruction. Many thousands can die over the course of a single mission, but the capsuleer rarely notices. Such capsuleers will typically shatter their way through all manner of non-combatant inhabited structures, up to and including major facilities, on the mere suspicion that something of value might be inside.

This is where our reputation as "gods of destruction" comes from.

I should stress that this is not the outlying case I'm talking about. It's typical. If anything, a capsuleer sensitive to massive loss of life is the exception, not the rule.

The counter-argument, of course, is that humans just haven't historically had the opportunity to do such things, but would have if they could. That may be, but it seems to me that this would require an uncommon tolerance for atrocity-- one that, among us, is closer to ubiquitous than uncommon.

You might look at a capsuleer as a sort of ghost: we are, after all, echoes of the dead.

Some of us still pursue the causes and indulge the habits we remember from our lives; these are the most likely to take human affairs seriously.

Some of us leave our human pasts behind to pursue power among our own, and usually care nothing for those left behind.

Some of us, to a human's eye, are mad, predatory things, driven less by profit than the pleasure of the hunt and the kill.

We are nuclear shadows cast by the deaths of the humans we were made from, as much like a human as that human's reflection in a mirror-- and just as human as that reflected image.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:44:00 - [48]
 

Cpt. Crenraven,
Cpt. Jenneth,

As always, I have to disagree with your exposition of what we are and why we are no longer human. Your argument of flawed copies fails already at the point that every instance of your mind at a point t(n) in time is a 'flawed' copy of your mind at the point t(n-1).

That (other) humans are capable of atrocities that are on the same level that some capsuleers commit is so well founded that it should be considered a fact. Humans don't have such a big problem with killing thousands by turning a switch over. Well, of course there is PTSD, but one could easily argue that you find exactly that with many capsuleers.

The thing is: The human is capable of unspeakably horrible acts. It isn't easy to admit it and many feel better with claiming that those committing these aren't human anymore. Well, they aren't in a sense: They fail to be humane humans, to realize being a good human. But then fundamentally they are humans. So are we. We just have the means to show how horrible a human can be.

And this is why I consider the claim that capsuleers aren't human anymore a - cheap - excuse to stop striving to be a good human.

Faithfully
N. Mithra

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.09 05:25:00 - [49]
 

And there, right on cue, is the other side of the argument. Hello, Ms. Mithra. Most of this long-running debate boils down to a difference of perspective. However....

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Your argument of flawed copies fails already at the point that every instance of your mind at a point t(n) in time is a 'flawed' copy of your mind at the point t(n-1).


Ms. Mithra, you keep making this argument, and it keeps not being true. A mind changes and develops naturally over time, adding and forgetting. It could be analogized to watching an atmospheric cloud as it gathers in moisture, swirls it about in different patterns, and eventually loses it.... But none of these processes involve abrupt damage to the pattern.

Supposing you flick a laser through the cloud. Not a particularly large one; just one of your little frigate pulses, zapzap. A tiny percentage of the cloud superheated, evaporated-- just a tiny percentage.

But when the cloud continues its merry way, the patterns will inevitably follow a different course. Subtly different, perhaps, but the differences will become more apparent with time. Sensitive dependence on initial conditions; you're familiar with the concept? So it is with us-- and I don't even presume that the data loss in emergency cloning is solely (or even primarily, or maybe even at all) responsible for the change.

Regardless, data loss and natural development are not the same creature. You could draw an analogy, perhaps, between data loss and brain damage, but such damage has been known to completely alter a personality....

Quote:
That (other) humans are capable of atrocities that are on the same level that some capsuleers commit is so well founded that it should be considered a fact. Humans don't have such a big problem with killing thousands by turning a switch over. Well, of course there is PTSD, but one could easily argue that you find exactly that with many capsuleers.


Again, Ms. Mithra, the question isn't whether there is overlap. There is.

The question is proportion. It's not "some" capsuleers. It's "most," including the ones who still like to think themselves heroic as they slaughter their way through entire fleets.

Quote:
We just have the means to show how horrible a human can be.


If we are human, the majority of us crossed the line into horrible-ness so long ago that I doubt we'd finished our frigate training at the time.

Quote:
And this is why I consider the claim that capsuleers aren't human anymore a - cheap - excuse to stop striving to be a good human.

Faithfully
N. Mithra


Mm. You can see, perhaps, Mr. Crenraven, why it is that I have little sympathy for people who try to paint the Amarr as somehow inherently evil. Much as I think Ms. Mithra is mistaken, I have no doubt her views are genuine-- and we need as many capsuleers as possible who think and act in this way.

My views, after all, are unpalatable to a human audience, even if I'm right. Much better that those who deal most closely with humanity be this sort of capsuleer whenever possible: the sort to maximize their estimation of human destructiveness, and to cast the "gods of destruction" as merely doing what many, even most, humans would do with comparable power.

As such, even though (actually, because) she contradicts me at every turn, Ms. Mithra is the best ally I could have from the perspective of remaining alive and unchained: just another powerful, amoral human being in a cluster of stars packed to the brim with same.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:05:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 09/08/2011 12:05:44
This discussion strucks me in the sense that both of you are all but opposites in terms of opinion on this matter. This is something I can tell for that both of your views constitute my own view of the matter.

I agree with Ms Jenneth on what makes capsuleers infomorphs, on what makes capsuleers shadows of the dead, and all the process intimately tied to the cloning processes. You are correct in my eyes on the global frame and its implications.

Now, I agree with Templar Mithra on the fact that being such an entity maybe makes us a new kind of human beings (or something else depending on one's views), but this does not imply that we suddenly became amoral (emphasis on the term amoral, unlike immoral). We are merely duplicating human patterns and behaviors that are magnified at a much bigger scale, through new technological and sociological vectors.

Originally by: Hound Crendraven
Lyn Farel, you furthered derailing long before Sadik or Star Fraction did. Getting hostile about Sadik's posts, which are both well written, well backed and constructed, does not further your cause much at all.


And are totally off topic, much like my answers to him afterwise.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:24:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 09/08/2011 13:37:24
Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Ms. Mithra, you keep making this argument, and it keeps not being true. A mind changes and develops naturally over time, adding and forgetting.

Sensitive dependence on initial conditions; you're familiar with the concept? So it is with us-- and I don't even presume that the data loss in emergency cloning is solely (or even primarily, or maybe even at all) responsible for the change.

Regardless, data loss and natural development are not the same creature. You could draw an analogy, perhaps, between data loss and brain damage, but such damage has been known to completely alter a personality....


Indeed. It alters personality not whether or not we have a human being in front of us Also, I don't see how forgetting something isn't data loss. Data loss is part of the natural development of humans - by necessity given the kind of systems humans are.

Quote:
Again, Ms. Mithra, the question isn't whether there is overlap. There is.

The question is proportion. It's not "some" capsuleers. It's "most," including the ones who still like to think themselves heroic as they slaughter their way through entire fleets.


So capsuleers and humans are merely differentiated by being on different places of a sliding scale with some good overlap? Why then aren't soldiers another kind of being than your usual civilian? Even if it is 'most' - and I'd like to see the numbers of capsuleers per profession here: you always forget the miners, industrialists, researchers... - capsuleers that 'slaughter their way through fleets', there is the issue that it's merely a difference of scale, not fundamental difference.

Quote:
If we are human, the majority of us crossed the line into horrible-ness so long ago that I doubt we'd finished our frigate training at the time.


That might very well be the case. But then the thing that worries me still isn't whether those are humans or not, but why such humans are allowed to roam the stars.

Quote:
My views, after all, are unpalatable to a human audience, even if I'm right. Much better that those who deal most closely with humanity be this sort of capsuleer whenever possible: the sort to maximize their estimation of human destructiveness, and to cast the "gods of destruction" as merely doing what many, even most, humans would do with comparable power.

As such, even though (actually, because) she contradicts me at every turn, Ms. Mithra is the best ally I could have from the perspective of remaining alive and unchained: just another powerful, amoral human being in a cluster of stars packed to the brim with same.


Don't mistake me - I'm all for chaining those capsuleers that hold themselves to be above - or below - the human standards of morality. As well as I am for chaining those that simply don't think about such and commit their atrocities without giving it a thought. The latter should be chained away even more quickly, planetsides and out of reach of their clones. They are obviously suffering from psychic disorders, probably need medical aid and are dangerous.

To put it simply: Because you're human you can be held to human standards. Being held to those, every human society is justified in locking you away for the atrocities you admit to commit.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.09 17:04:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 09/08/2011 17:19:28
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Now, I agree with Templar Mithra on the fact that being such an entity maybe makes us a new kind of human beings (or something else depending on one's views), but this does not imply that we suddenly became amoral (emphasis on the term amoral, unlike immoral).


Ah, yes. As a rule, being immoral takes more work.

I've never insisted that it happens to all of us, Ms. Farel. I could easily believe that you and Ms. Mithra are both still functionally human.

The change, the fall into dementia or inhumanity, is sometimes abrupt, sometimes gradual. ... Or perhaps the causative event is abrupt, but the effects are often only felt over time.

Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Indeed. It alters personality not whether or not we have a human being in front of us.


Nor do I argue that the loss, alone, is what makes us other than human.

Quote:
Also, I don't see how forgetting something isn't data loss.


Forgetting is part of a mind's routine function. It may be literally losing data, but this process is distinct from the shedding of random chunks.

One is the natural growth of an individual. The other is the abrupt and artificial absence of bits that would have made up that individual.

Quote:
Why then aren't soldiers another kind of being than your usual civilian?


They are. Their moral contexts differ. You do not expect of a farmer what you expect of a soldier; what would be cowardice for the one is simple sense for the other.

Both fall within the range of human experience, however.

Quote:
... you always forget the miners, industrialists, researchers...


That's because the changes seem slower to manifest in such people. But still: miners' hands are most often soaked in red from unequal contests, just less of it. Capsuleer industrialists and researchers, almost to a one, are weapon merchants, existing on machinery greased with blood: their economy would crash if widespread peace ever broke out.

Quote:
... it's merely a difference of scale, not fundamental difference.


A large enough difference of scale produces a fundamental difference. The reaction in a gravitic fusion drive is not a star, however much they may have in common.

Quote:
Don't mistake me - I'm all for chaining those capsuleers that hold themselves to be above - or below - the human standards of morality.


Oh, I don't mistake you at all. You'd have us all locked up, if it were up to you. But you seem to assume, Ms. Mithra, that seeing us as you do would prompt humans to act on that perception.

If we are seen to be mad, if we are understood to be wicked-- how is this a change from the status quo? We are the blood-soaked agents of the great powers, mercenaries, killers for hire.

Of course we're wicked. The great powers expected that when they created us. Our fan clubs understand perfectly well that their icons drip human blood.

Better to be seen as wicked or insane (but glamorous and useful) humans: just a sad bit of the zeitgeist, one part lamentable phenomenon for Gallente intellectuals to sigh about over their coffee, one part guilty pleasure, sort of like a bloodsport.

The alternative is to be recognized as a threat.

Quote:
As well as I am for chaining those that simply don't think about such.... They are obviously suffering from psychic disorders....


I used to argue that I was either right, or mad. Perhaps I should resurrect that argument. Considering its more flagrant, well-documented effects, it does seem possible, even likely, that pod training drove a majority of us quietly bonkers. If the psychological pressure continues over time, it might also explain why many of those who start out like you, or, at least, Ms. Farel, eventually end up like me.

Hm. I like this theory.

The thing is, though, Ms. Mithra, psychological illness is defined on the basis of a deviation from the norm-- so what do we call it when the deviation is the new norm?

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 19:31:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 09/08/2011 19:31:47
Originally by: Aria Jenneth

Quote:
As well as I am for chaining those that simply don't think about such.... They are obviously suffering from psychic disorders....


I used to argue that I was either right, or mad. Perhaps I should resurrect that argument. Considering its more flagrant, well-documented effects, it does seem possible, even likely, that pod training drove a majority of us quietly bonkers. If the psychological pressure continues over time, it might also explain why many of those who start out like you, or, at least, Ms. Farel, eventually end up like me.

Hm. I like this theory.




I do not like it.

This theory is problematic.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.09 19:53:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 09/08/2011 19:53:20
Originally by: Lyn Farel
I do not like it.

This theory is problematic.


I may misunderstand, but you sound ... disturbed, Ms. Farel.

Do you mind playing that last thought out a bit?


Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2011.08.09 20:53:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 09/08/2011 21:07:10
Well...

I am still not convinced that forgetting and data loss are distinguishable as natural and non-natural data loss. You'd need to convince me first that forgetting something is non-random.

And of course there are differences between a farmer and a soldier, but they are fundamentally the same in regard to being human. That is exactly my argument: There are differences, but they don't merit that one speaks of one as non-human - just as it is with capsuleers.

And the difference between a gravitic fusion drive and a star might very well be the same as between a farmer and a soldier, I'd argue: Of course, a farmer isn't a soldier and vice versa, still, on the fundamental level they both are human.

Now to what I think is the more interesting part of the debate:

Originally by: Aria Jenneth
The thing is, though, Ms. Mithra, psychological illness is defined on the basis of a deviation from the norm-- so what do we call it when the deviation is the new norm?


Well, it's easy: As it's a human condition all humans have to be considered to establish the norm. Just as it is the 'norm' for humans to get radiation sickness when they're subject to radiation of a certain level, it's not the norm for humans to have radiation sickness.

Still, I don't think you don't need to define the 'norm' like that: One can define the norm as a functional norm from which the capsuleer masses deviate. In this case it's easy to argue that a person suffers from a psichic disorder if he or she suffers either from distress because of his given condition or shows clearly certain disabilities:
Senseless and repeated harming of others - especially without any signs of remorse - would be a strong indication of a mental disorder regardless of whether any distress is percieved by the subject.

I'd like to add that - out of personal experience - I'm firmly convinced that the state you refer to as being sufficent to constitute the non-humaness of capsuleers is a state of psychic disorder, a dysfunctional state, which is, in my opinion the result of the stress of pod training and the continued stress that is connected to the jovian wetgrave and whatever you do while plugged in.

I am convinced of that because I've been on the brink to tumble down into that but were lucky enough to recuperate. So there's a cure, at least for those that don't suffer too long from the state. There are also factors that cause a few pilots to show a resilience against this disorder: The resilience factors might include a health integration into human society, having an intact family life, non-capsuleer friends and/or a leaning towards spirituality and a grounding in the religious life, among others.

Also, the more time per day someone spends in pod, the higher is the probability that this person is suffering from the 'Children of Naught'-disorder.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.09 22:42:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 09/08/2011 22:50:31
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
You'd need to convince me first that forgetting something is non-random.


Well ... my own experience of it is decidedly non-random. Memories are formed in webs of associations, many of them sensory. Usually, the things that are forgotten first (almost at once) are those that made no particular impression. Those that have no particular moorings, no connections, follow behind, while those that develop tight associations (especially through the sense of smell) can be recalled in an instant after years of not being thought of at all.

If you need more, I could perhaps go try to find a scientific paper on the subject.

Quote:
... a farmer and a soldier ... are fundamentally the same in regard to being human.


Of course they are. What may be reasonably expected of each lies wholly within the realm of human endeavor and experience.

For us, not so much.

Quote:
And the difference between a gravitic fusion drive and a star might very well be the same as between a farmer and a soldier, I'd argue: Of course, a farmer isn't a soldier and vice versa, still, on the fundamental level they both are human.


It seems like you'd be better off arguing different classes of stars, here. To assert that fusion reactions on such different scales are "the same" is like asserting that protozoans are as human as soldiers because they're both living things.

As an aside: Mr. Crenraven, in order to be useful, the term "human" must be narrow enough to have meaning. The breadth of that definition lies at the center of this debate. Ms. Mithra defines "human" much the way I define "person," but we both consider status as "human" to carry, more or less, the same moral requirements and expectations.

At base, she believes we can and should be held to traditional human standards of moral behavior. I do not.

Now, on to what I agree is the interesting bit:

Quote:
As it's a human condition all humans have to be considered to establish the norm.


What would this make of your faith, I wonder? Andreus Ixiris and his ilk already love painting you all as insane.

Quote:
... I've been on the brink to tumble down into that but were lucky enough to recuperate. So there's a cure....


Alternative interpretation: many, most, or all capsuleers experience, at some point, a psychological "break" that fundamentally alters a certain aspect of human psychology. Since the human moral capacity appears to be an evolved trait (often analogized to language), albeit one not all humans possess, let's say (for the sake of argument) that the base capacity gets ripped out or overwritten with an alternative version.

In some cases, learned moral behaviors get ripped out as well. In others, learned behaviors linger, resulting in a sort of moral "momentum" that slowly succumbs to gravity.

In this interpretation, your instincts and impulses are just as altered as mine, but you, through a combination of faith and willpower, have managed to maintain your prior role-- and, what's more, to convince yourself that you have not changed in any fundamental way.

By this analysis, I would be the "normal" capsuleer, having accepted and embraced my altered nature. You would be the aberration, having successfully maintained your original moral structure despite having the foundation either kicked out or radically reshaped from under it, apparently by sheer force of will.

... which would be both impressive and a little sad.

Human body-- gone; replaced by superficially "human" clone and an endless succession of starships. Mind-- unmoored; free to wander from form to form. All of this to create a creature designed to function as a lethal agent to power and wealth.

We are all three of us, Ms. Farel, yourself, and me, women of faith. In mine, the soul's perfection demands insight into the unity of body and mind with each other and with all things. You tell me, Ms. Mithra: what, then, is our place in the scheme of things to be?

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 23:02:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 09/08/2011 23:10:52
EDIT : Emphasis on 'randomness', because ultimately, true randomness does not exist as everything is intimately tied to physical or cosmological laws. We only consider it as such from our own ignorance of said laws.


Originally by: Aria Jenneth
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 09/08/2011 19:53:20
Originally by: Lyn Farel
I do not like it.

This theory is problematic.


I may misunderstand, but you sound ... disturbed, Ms. Farel.

Do you mind playing that last thought out a bit?




Oh uh, I am sorry. This was merely a personnal feeling about the theory in itself. I do not criticize its validity. I just hoped this theory will not concern me either eventually, because it is just depressing.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.09 23:19:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Oh uh, I am sorry. This was merely a personnal feeling about the theory in itself. I do not criticize its validity. I just hoped this theory will not concern me either eventually, because it is just depressing.


Ah ... so I did read you right. I'm sorry.

It's not clear whether the process of capsuleer dementia is inevitable or simply very common. The last to undergo it in anything like public was Bloodbird, and he had us all convinced for a bit that he'd committed suicide rather than face it. I'm still not clear on what he actually did. Self-inflicted brain-washing of some sort? Maybe I'll find out some day.

For my own part, the slide itself was horrible, but that was mostly because I was introspective enough to be aware of it. You, for good or ill, seem to be similarly self-aware, if maybe not quite as self-critical.

Maybe Ms. Mithra's approach would work for you. If not ... well ... assuming you're aware enough to try to "grab on," there comes a time when you either snap or let go.

I highly recommend letting go. Considering what goes before, the sense of peace is really quite remarkable.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.10 12:32:00 - [59]
 

As long as I keep the bigger picture in mind, I can assure you this is unlikely to happen, anyway.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.08.10 16:08:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
As long as I keep the bigger picture in mind, I can assure you this is unlikely to happen, anyway.


Words I, too, would have used earlier in my career, Ms. Farel. Guard yourself well, and fortune favor.


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