| Author |
Topic |
Izziee |
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:49:00 - [ 1]
Being a relatively new player, I keep seeing people mentioning how Hybrid weapons are borked, what is this? Blasters? Railguns? both?
How are they broken and what do they effect..small, medium, large?
Curious and any help would be welcome please since I'm sort of training for Gallente ships. |
Jonas Xiamon
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:50:00 - [ 2]
Train drones. |
Ayieka
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:53:00 - [ 3]
blasters only work well at really close range, and rails only work at really long range. and other weapon types do better at either range, and lasers can switch between long and short range on a whim, while still doing better damage. |
Izziee |
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:01:00 - [ 4]
 Originally by: Jonas Xiamon
Train drones.
There's certainly many of you who like to add something completely irrelevant to questions. Drones have absolutely nothing at all to do with what I asked. Quote:
blasters only work well at really close range, and rails only work at really long range. and other weapon types do better at either range, and lasers can switch between long and short range on a whim, while still doing better damage.
Okay, pretty simple I guess, this is the only issue with them? Doesn't really seem that hard to fix. Though aren't projectiles in the same boat? (Wouldn't know, not really used them) Arty only long range and auto's short...at least in the same regards to hybrids, or is this not the case? |
Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
|
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:15:00 - [ 5]
Projectiles have a huge falloff range so they work pretty good out to much longer range than blasters. Artillery alpha DPS is much better than railguns. And projectiles both use no capacitor and have all damage types unlike hybrids (em/therm only).
Other problems : The tracking of blasters is too weak. Webifiers have been nerfed hard so very hard to stay close enough to do damage. Gallente ships are relatively slow which makes that an even bigger problem.
That all said, there are good fast gallente ships like the taranis and a blaster megathron does insane DPS if he can stay on top of you. |
Capdown Jakuard |
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:19:00 - [ 6]
I'm a new player too, playing as Minmatar
The way I see it is that it balances itself out in the end since drones (I'm guessing, sorry if I'm wrong) should be your main DPS output.
And drones are very useful for mission running
If you want to delve away from an efficient mission running ship and want to be some stat obsessed PvP guy, you can always train another set of guns..
But I imagine that the price of hybrid ammo is not too high(?) and with drones it works itself out in the end
No doubt it will all change at some point though, seen a few of these topics posted |
Uuali |
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:19:00 - [ 7]
Edited by: Uuali on 30/07/2011 23:20:51
Blasters are great damage and great tracking but at very close range. Railguns are great at long range but don't do crap at close range due to tracking. Gallente ships usually give bonuses to help close range blasters.
I'm not familiar with lasers but I suppose they do well at any range because they get adequate tracking/damage and are able to keep up better at those in-between ranges.
Projectiles operate on the falloff range, not the optimal range so they can kind of overlap due to a "looser" range penalty.
Therefore, Gallente fighting style is based on a combonation of drones/turrets. So some Gallente ships are turrets only which means you need to get in real close. This is not a good style under present mechanics. Other ships are drone ships and benefit greatly from the ability of drones to fight at any range without penalty other than travel time.
I think people are saying that the Gallente turrets should have better bonuses and/or hybrid turrets should benefit from improved bonuses or better mid range capabilities.
OR, WHICH IS WHAT I WANT, YES I'M SHOUTING – ALL GALLENTE SHIPS SHOULD BE BETTER DRONE BOATS! |
Izziee |
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:28:00 - [ 8]
ATM I'm using a domi and my drones do a seriously large amount of damage compared to my guns (that said, most of my skills are in drones so far, and I've not trained much for guns but then, I only have 4.5mil SP or so anyway..hence asking the question)
I've not really tried blasters (a little the other day but switched back to rails) but I do find rails boring and well, as already stated, crap up close.
Is it worth training for a different set of weapons all together for use with gallente ships, or do the bonuses still keep hybrids being the better choice despite worse than other weapons?
I think I'll eventually end up going for another races ship, though I did train for the rattlesnake but quite a way off from affording that atm (or having the skills to fly it properly I guess, my missiles are very low)
Thanks for the help so far...have read that hybrids will be looked into, and I plan on staying around in EVE so maybe I can just ignore training weapons and focus on everything else until then and stick with what I got. (just using large 350mm compressed rails atm I think) |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten. |
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:38:00 - [ 9]
Originally by: Capdown Jakuard
The way I see it is that it balances itself out in the end since drones (I'm guessing, sorry if I'm wrong) should be your main DPS output.
If you can use drones that is, many of us don't have that luxury. |
baltec1 |
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:49:00 - [ 10]
I like blasters  |
Uuali |
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:55:00 - [ 11]
Don't use turrets with a domi. Nor with a Vexor/Ishtar.
They are drone boats.
A Gallente turret boat is at a loss because it gets bonuses for close range and benefits from blasters usually. Turrets just aren't the main weapon for Gallente yet CCP designed turret boats. So, either they should benefit better from their turrets or all Gallente ships should get beefed up drone bonuses/bandwidth/drone bay space. |
Name Family Name |
Posted - 2011.07.31 00:10:00 - [ 12]
Edited by: Name Family Name on 31/07/2011 00:12:29
I can fly all races combat-subcaps with their respective T2 weapons (ok - never trained T2 rails, because it didn't look worthwhile) on one of my characters and here are some problems gallente have (sticking to shortrange):
- When Facing a minmatar ship, they can easily be kited becasue Minmatar ships are faster and far more agile, so the a blasterboat will never get in range if the minmatar pilot is not a complete idiot. So the min will just hammer into the suspected resistance hole with the damagetype of his choice from range thanks to his tremendous base dps and falloff.
In case the gallente pilot somehow managed to get close, the min will usually have neuts fitted in his utility slot and will suck the gals cap dry since the min doesn't need cap to shoot anyway.
Gallente ships generally turning like bricks and the nerf to webs didn't help either, so the gal will often have trouble tracking the min in case he managed to get within optimal.
Changes to rigs, so basically any ship is rigged today didn't help either, because gallente are usually armortanks, which (combined with the rigs) will make them even slower. Unfortunately, Armor Rig penalties are far harsher than those of shield rigs.
- If he faces an amarr ship, his chances are better, (Amarr aren't really that much better off than Gallente), but thanks to the range-advantage, the amarr will have eaten half the gallentes tank when he's in range - once he is, he could swing it around though because pulselasers have the worst tracking of all short range turrets and Amarr dps restricted to EM and thermal, which is not that great vs. Gallente who stuffed their thermal hole.
- Caldari - whilst not being the fastest - should still manage to kite gallente and fire right into their resistance hole.
Of course these are just examples, ignoring drones and I pretty much didn't fly anything but Minmatar/Angel since the projectile-boost. There's pages and pages of threads discussing the issue in detail if you're interested in reading up on the issue. |
Izziee |
Posted - 2011.07.31 00:25:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: Name Family Name
Edited by: Name Family Name on 31/07/2011 00:12:29
I can fly all races combat-subcaps with their respective T2 weapons (ok - never trained T2 rails, because it didn't look worthwhile) on one of my characters and here are some problems gallente have (sticking to shortrange):
- When Facing a minmatar ship, they can easily be kited becasue Minmatar ships are faster and far more agile, so the a blasterboat will never get in range if the minmatar pilot is not a complete idiot. So the min will just hammer into the suspected resistance hole with the damagetype of his choice from range thanks to his tremendous base dps and falloff.
In case the gallente pilot somehow managed to get close, the min will usually have neuts fitted in his utility slot and will suck the gals cap dry since the min doesn't need cap to shoot anyway.
Gallente ships generally turning like bricks and the nerf to webs didn't help either, so the gal will often have trouble tracking the min in case he managed to get within optimal.
Changes to rigs, so basically any ship is rigged today didn't help either, because gallente are usually armortanks, which (combined with the rigs) will make them even slower. Unfortunately, Armor Rig penalties are far harsher than those of shield rigs.
- If he faces an amarr ship, his chances are better, (Amarr aren't really that much better off than Gallente), but thanks to the range-advantage, the amarr will have eaten half the gallentes tank when he's in range - once he is, he could swing it around though because pulselasers have the worst tracking of all short range turrets and Amarr dps restricted to EM and thermal, which is not that great vs. Gallente who stuffed their thermal hole.
- Caldari - whilst not being the fastest - should still manage to kite gallente and fire right into their resistance hole.
Of course these are just examples, ignoring drones and I pretty much didn't fly anything but Minmatar/Angel since the projectile-boost. There's pages and pages of threads discussing the issue in detail if you're interested in reading up on the issue.
Alright, do you have the links or do you mean generally, just pages lying around? :p thanks though, quite helpful Don't use turrets with a domi. Nor with a Vexor/Ishtar. They are drone boats. Quote:
A Gallente turret boat is at a loss because it gets bonuses for close range and benefits from blasters usually. Turrets just aren't the main weapon for Gallente yet CCP designed turret boats. So, either they should benefit better from their turrets or all Gallente ships should get beefed up drone bonuses/bandwidth/drone bay space.
What do you mean "turrets" ...Turret is a pretty general example..could mean anything really...Gun turrets, projectile turret etc..Do you mean rails, and thus blasters should be used instead? |
Borun Tal
Minmatar
Space Pods Inc |
Posted - 2011.07.31 00:29:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Izziee
Being a relatively new player, I keep seeing people mentioning how Hybrid weapons are borked, what is this? Blasters? Railguns? both?
How are they broken and what do they effect..small, medium, large?
Curious and any help would be welcome please since I'm sort of training for Gallente ships.
Not borked, they just suck. Missiles, Projectile, & lasers (in that order); don't waste time on hybrids. |
Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult |
Posted - 2011.07.31 00:39:00 - [ 15]
Edited by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov on 31/07/2011 00:41:35 Originally by: Izziee
Alright, do you have the links or do you mean generally, just pages lying around? :p thanks though, quite helpful
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?2172-Gallente-Draft This thread (now locked - the new thread is on the same board) has quite a lot of information regarding the problems inherent with hybrid use and with Gallente in general. The first post details the history of the problem and will explain the numerous changes that lead to things getting so bad. And, since it's not the official forums, there's far less trolling and general imbecility! |
Xyfu
Minmatar
Love From Above
|
Posted - 2011.07.31 15:53:00 - [ 16]
I have to respectfully disagree, with sheer weight of numbers staying my mind. Look at the damage reports on this, and tell me blasters don't **** face. http://k.min.us/il9Q6u.jpgImage changed to URL. Zymurgist |
Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:01:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
And projectiles both use no capacitor and have all damage types unlike hybrids (Kinetic/therm only).
fixed |
Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
|
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:09:00 - [ 18]
|
Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:10:00 - [ 19]
Edited by: Wa''roun on 31/07/2011 16:10:54 Originally by: Xyfu
I have to respectfully disagree,
with sheer weight of numbers staying my mind.
Look at the damage reports on this, and tell me blasters don't **** face.
I think the main complaint is not hybrids vs rats but pvp. (the OP or a mod needs to fix this w i d e p o s t) |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen |
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:43:00 - [ 20]
Edited by: Soi Mala on 31/07/2011 16:44:09
Yes, you need to be close for blasters, but what would you rather? That all turret types merge into a happy medium somewhere around what projectiles currently are? Diversity in weapon systems is a good thing.
The problem isn't so much with hybrids but the hulls (generally, combining a weapon system that relies on getting into range ASAP with armor tanks is doomed to fail from the start). Blasters are pretty much a do or die weapon, you NEED to land that close tackle if you want to apply damage. Current game mechanics make it too easy for pretty much any equal or smaller shipclass to outmaneuver you. Strangely, hybrids work GREAT for figates, since pretty much all frigate weapon systems have effective ranges under the 10km threshold (with the exception of a few), however, these distances don't scale with the higher shipclasses. Most BC's and BS are capable of engaging well over 10km, and are often more agile/faster than say, a brutix.
I can't help but feel there is a certain human element to the problem too, since most people nowadays are incredibly risk averse. Going balls deep into scram and web range just doesn't seem feasible to most when you could jump in a cane and kite at 18km or so, ready to overheat mwd and bug out at a moments notice.
So how can we fix this system? I don't know... I have some thoughts but I haven't done any speciific maths etc. I think rather than just one big change several small changes are needed...
- Increased agility (not speed) for dedicated blaster ships would help, maybe not in EVERY situation, but for catching things on gates you have a better chance of landing tackle if you can turn and get to speed quickly. You don't need speed so much because you only need to travel 2-3km in that situation.
- Maybe a SMALL damage increase, blasters should be downright unbeatable at close range, real shock and awe kind of stuff, though they're already pretty much there so long as you can apply it.
- The damage types are a bit of a problem, since the highest native resists are kin and therm, and this detracts from the true dps numbers that blasters SHOULD have, so i guess either a slight damage increase, or a slight resist nerf could help, but certainly not both...
Just some food for thought, maybe some of the smarter guys can take those ideas and run with them, i don't profess to know what consequences each of those changes would have.
|
Xyfu
Minmatar
Love From Above
|
Posted - 2011.07.31 17:29:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Wa'roun
Edited by: Wa''roun on 31/07/2011 16:10:54
Originally by: Xyfu
I have to respectfully disagree,
with sheer weight of numbers staying my mind.
Look at the damage reports on this, and tell me blasters don't **** face.
I think the main complaint is not hybrids vs rats but pvp.
(the OP or a mod needs to fix this w i d e p o s t)
Just wanted an excuse to post it. :D |
Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2011.07.31 17:45:00 - [ 22]
It's not so much the guns, it's more the ships (both Gallente and some of the Caldari that use them). |
Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp |
Posted - 2011.07.31 18:07:00 - [ 23]
Take each of the gun types
Take the best ammos damage figure
How many times can you fire that weapon in 3
Minutes? (without bonuses)
Assume everything is perfect (optimal range - check, zero transversal - check, zero resists - check)
Did you have to reload?
If so, how long does that take from your dps?
Multiply the number of shots fired in that 3 minute winnow by the total damage dealt.
That's the first figure you need. Perfection!
Next up, you can start to add ship bonuses, weapon multipliers, common resists, fall off and transversal, signature radius and velocity.
The second graph is entirely different set of results.
The third graph, you want to include dps from drones (if you have any) and this usually means, every race can pick damage type on the fly.
for sheets and geegles, take the number of guns on each ship, add the damage dealt plus multipliers, see alpha of guns (missiles have effectively no alpha as at enough range, target will just warp off long before those missiles land)
|
LoyalOne |
Posted - 2011.07.31 18:11:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: MeBiatch
Hybrid fix:
idea for blasters would be close range arties... (basically keep dps the same but increase alpha decrease rof to ofset, plus increase base tracking)
Railguns: make them long range autocannons (increase base damage and rof, reduce cap activity amount)
Change the 10% to optimal range bonus on Caldari ships to 5% to ROF...
hybrid ammo:
make it a true mix between energy and projectile... (give a base tracking bonus added to the cap reduction bonus)
plus make:
antimater 50/50 therm/kin damage = -50% to optimal range
uranium 80/20 therm/kin -50% to optimal range
plutonium 20/80 therm/kin) -50% to optimal range
thorium 70/30 therm/kin -20% optimal range 1.15% increase to tracking -25% to activation cost...
lead 30/70 therm/kin 0% change to optimal range 1.075% increase to tracking -35% to activation cost...
iridium 50/50 therm/kin 20% change to optimal range 1.035% increase to tracking -40% to activation cost...
thungsten 80/20 therm/kin 40% change to optimal range 1.0175% increase to tracking -45% to activation cost...
iron 20/80 therm/kin 60% change to optimal range 0% change to tracking -50% to activation cost...
make there options for gallente ships to get close
1st is speed option
so give gallente ships all reduced mass plus make a mass reduction bonus to some ships (like deimos, mega all ships that currently get falloff/tracking bonus now get mass reduction bonus)
2nd: make the 7.5% to armor repper amount per level to include incomming RR
3rd. change the trimark penilty from max speed to agility...
Presto Gallente/Hybrids are fixed
plus gallente/caldari ships are now balanced against each other...
caldari will have the highest dps and gallente highest alpha...
because 5% rof = 33% increase to dps but no increase to alpha... but 5% to base damage is 25% increase to both dps and alpha...
imagine how usefull rokhs will be when you can do 1k dps @ 100km
Think of the gallente blasters being like a remington pump action shotgun and caldari blasters working like a benelli automatic shotgun... |
ColdCutz
Gallente
Pwny Nation
|
Posted - 2011.07.31 18:15:00 - [ 25]
With all the discussion on Hybrids, how did this ambiguous **** proposal make it to the CSM meeting only for them to shoot it down for not offering a clear solution. |
Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp |
Posted - 2011.07.31 18:17:00 - [ 26]
From reading these forums long enough, people in drone boats want the other ammo types advantages, leaving not much at all to distinguish weapon types and combat tactics.
Making blasters the same as autocannons leaves us expecting zero flight time to target missiles. After all, we can't have variation accordingly to these people.
Don't take blasters into a nano fight, something else is better
Don't take rails into a sub max range for rails fight, fail setup of fight
Don't take drones into a range fight, again you've better choices
So, pray tell me, when should I bring blastes?
When you can land on top of the target and cut it's propulsion systems.
If it's still got an After burner, then they out smarted you. No, your guns didnt fail you, your fleet did. Blasters really *do* hurt when used correctly.
Meh there are graphs out there showing this.
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