Posted - 2011.07.21 23:09:00 - [31]

 

Edited by: Caliph Muhammed on 21/07/2011 23:10:47

Originally by: B3AKOHE

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Originally by: Caliph Muhammed

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Wrong. I have billions waiting to cover it ...

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You very well might. But if you set a buy order to, let's say, 1000 units, then you set minimum amount to 1000 units, and for all of this you put only 25% of the needed sum. What's gonna happen? The order, as being fake is gonna go *poof*, as shows in screenshots above. If that's not broken down market mechanics, I don't know what is

So, ease up, kiddo, you are no Nostradamus to predict the future.

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It doesn't take Michel de Nostradame to predict a skill working exactly as intended and trained by almost every trader in the game isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.

I'd be more sympathetic to your plight but as typically done by the most daft amongst us, not only do you dismiss anything that shows your own ignorance as the problem,
you're equally too stubborn to concede your mistakes.

Posted - 2011.07.21 23:36:00 - [33]

 

Originally by: Caliph Muhammed

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... not only do you dismiss anything that shows your own ignorance as the problem, you're equally too stubborn to concede your mistakes...

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Dropping all the attempts at insults, core of this post was about suggestions on how to deal with this issue and yours seem to boil down to "Take it, like all of us have taken it before". I can only hope that with that life philosophy, you, kiddo, never end up in prison

Posted - 2011.07.22 00:03:00 - [35]

 

Originally by: Brock Nelson

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OP got burnt by the old "If its too good to be true, it's probably true" nonsense...

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Something like that

Posted - 2011.07.22 01:27:00 - [37]

 

Originally by: B3AKOHE

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The order, as being fake is gonna go *poof*, as shows in screenshots above. If that's not broken down market mechanics, I don't know what is

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It's not a broken mechanic because the existence of an order is not a promise that you can fulfill that order. Margin trading is just one of several possible things that may prevent you from doing it.

Originally by: B3AKOHE

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I agree with what you are saying, but correct me if I'm wrong about this part:

Originally by: da go

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... In real life markets you can buy stock under margin trading even if you do not have the money to buy it...

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Isn't that what caused the market crash of 1929? People buying stock at (I think) 1/10 of the price?

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Yes and no. The crash was due to a series of things. An economic bubble, a decline in the value of real estate, a lot of people investing in ever-rising stock, margin trading and more.

Over several weeks the markets as a whole declined. They rebounded up shortly only to begin declining even faster. On "black thursday" several bankers and operators tried to stop the decline and temporarily succeeded. However over the weekend newspapers reported the events and the result was a big crash on the following two days, dubbed "black monday" and "black tuesday" where the market lost around 12% twice in a row.

Of course margin trading was a problem. It did not cause the decline but it accelerated it. People had invested all they had and borrowed more through margin trading. Margin trading at the time had much less collateral than today and people had borrowed so much that the exposure exceeded the total circulating currency in the USA. With the stock value declining they got margin calls, could not cover them and therefore the collateral (which is itself stock) was sold to cover the calls, causing the stock market to drop even more.

But margin trading was not the only cause. People panicking and an actual bubble were the main causes. Also a lot of people think that the crash was the cause of the great depression. It wasn't. The depression was a worldwide event and had a lot of causes. The crash was just one of those. But it was news of the crash that alerted the world that something was going on, so many consider it the main cause. The big crash happened in days. But comparatively it was much less than the popping of the dot com bubble (which happened over a few months). And yet we did not have deflation and a long worldwide depression in the following years (we may have one upcoming, but that's another story).

Originally by: B3AKOHE

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Originally by: Caliph Muhammed

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... not only do you dismiss anything that shows your own ignorance as the problem, you're equally too stubborn to concede your mistakes...

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Dropping all the attempts at insults, core of this post was about suggestions on how to deal with this issue and yours seem to boil down to "Take it, like all of us have taken it before". I can only hope that with that life philosophy, you, kiddo, never end up in prison

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Actually the game mechanic is as it's supposed to be. There is no issue in the game. You have an issue, of course: you have been scammed. "Take it, like all of us have taken it before" is the best way to deal with it. I was scammed 300 mil about a month into the game. It hurt. Today I can intentionally drop a few billions in one of these scams just to show to someone how they work and I couldn't care less.

Posted - 2011.07.22 03:19:00 - [39]

 

Originally by: Thoraemond

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Scams are a reasonable part of life in EVE, but there's no need leave weak game mechanics like this in place to make scamming unnecessarily easy.

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If you get rid of some scams, the suckers will fall for other ones. What I really love about this scam, and what the OP completely glosses over, is that the failed buy order actually already penalized the "scammer" because he lost the brokers fee that he paid up front to set up the order. So how can it be a scam if the scammer not only doesn't make money, but loses money in the process? Nothing in the first post shows that the OP lost money, so where is the scam? Did he mention losing any money in his petition?

Why do the suckers always fail to mention that they paid over-inflated prices for the stuff that they were trying to sell? Is it because they realize they ignored all the obvious warning signs?

Also, I hope you realized that the order matching software for the market system has not been touched in something like seven years. Anyone who has ever worked on it is probably either dead or senile, and even if they were around they would have no clue how to "fix" it without messing everything up completely.

At some point they may overhaul the market system (hopefully in time for Dust) but until then you are wasting your breath.

Posted - 2011.07.22 04:05:00 - [41]

 

Originally by: Claire Voyant

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If you get rid of some scams, the suckers will fall for other ones.

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Sure, and eventually there'll probably be other flavour-of-the-month scams in the future, even if Margin Trading is not changed in any way. That is not an argument against improvement, though; it's just a description of what tends to happen.

Originally by: Claire Voyant

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What I really love about this scam, and what the OP completely glosses over, is that the failed buy order actually already penalized the "scammer" because he lost the brokers fee that he paid up front to set up the order. So how can it be a scam if the scammer not only doesn't make money, but loses money in the process? Nothing in the first post shows that the OP lost money, so where is the scam? Did he mention losing any money in his petition?

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It's not as though the scammers post over-priced goods for sale, spam Local to solicit victims, and only after making the sales at inflated prices post the false Buy Orders using Margin Trading. The "use" of Margin Trading in this type of scam clearly does occur before the deprivation. Sure, the nature of the scam is certain only when the false Buy Order fails, but that does not mean that that is the only time at which the scammer was relying on the skill.

I'm sure you appreciate that the misleading signalling of the false Buy Order is an important part of a Margin Trading scam, even if the loss (or risk of loss) to the victim occurs before the Buy Order fails.

Originally by: Claire Voyant

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Why do the suckers always fail to mention that they paid over-inflated prices for the stuff that they were trying to sell? Is it because they realize they ignored all the obvious warning signs?

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Let's assume it is because most victims of this scam that post about it are weak-minded whiners who missed other clear market signals (such as the Market History for the SKU(s) in question).

Again, that is no reason to avoid improving the Market mechanics. Moreover, those same weak-minded whiners would still be around to be scammed even if the mechanics were improved.

Originally by: Claire Voyant

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[T]he order matching software for the market system has not been touched in something like seven years. Anyone who has ever worked on it is probably either dead or senile, and even if they were around they would have no clue how to "fix" it without messing everything up completely.

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I'm not certain this is correct. There definitely has been more-recent tinkering in other parts of the Market code; for example, the formula for determining Market Order Broker Fees was changed in 2010.

Not to mention, of course, that the existing weakness in the implementation of Margin Trading may be evidence of senility in those responsible for the original design or implementation anyhow.

Posted - 2011.07.22 06:16:00 - [43]

 

Edited by: Hank van DaMer on 22/07/2011 06:23:32
.
People, stop feed the troll!.


CCP knows the Issue:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4172&tid=7

And it is just as well as suicide ganking to avoid the peace in high sec.

Posted - 2011.07.22 08:41:00 - [45]

 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Originally by: B3AKOHE

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Still, my petition is open, nobody responded yet, but nobody closed it either.

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One of the reasons why I am leaving. Anything not filed under "stuck" takes me 2-3 weeks just to see the petition status change from "open" to "in action".

I played and am playing totally minuscule other MMOs (one with 1000 subs!) and their responses vary from 10 minutes to 2-3 days. Figures!

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What?! A game with less petitions to sort through gets them done quicker?!? Madness.

Posted - 2011.07.22 11:03:00 - [47]

 

Originally by: Loraine Gess

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Originally by: B3AKOHE

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Still, my petition is open, nobody responded yet, but nobody closed it either.

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One of the reasons why I am leaving. Anything not filed under "stuck" takes me 2-3 weeks just to see the petition status change from "open" to "in action".

I played and am playing totally minuscule other MMOs (one with 1000 subs!) and their responses vary from 10 minutes to 2-3 days. Figures!

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What?! A game with less petitions to sort through gets them done quicker?!? Madness.

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Yea!

I'm playing another sandbox single shard MMORPG. Younger and with less subscribers (not going to name it, but it's the one all the bittervets that cancelled their EvE Subscription are playing at the moment and most of them joined the newly formed New Eden eXiles [NeX] corp).
They do not even have such a slow thing as a petition system. Instead of petitioning you just convo one of the devs or GMs ingame or poke them in IRC.
You know: they respond to you within seconds, minutes if you are unlucky.

I suppose still having only a few thousand subscribers has absolutely nothing to do with it. I'm sure you could have a few millions of subscribers and still be able to do it.

P.S.: I'm not saying CCP is doing it right. They suck on many levels (and do not on many others). But comparing apples and oranges is meaningless.

Posted - 2011.07.22 11:25:00 - [49]

 

Originally by: Thoraemond

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The concern I have about the current Margin Trading mechanic is that the particular mechanism currently allows pilots to intentionally post orders that will not be honoured, without consequence.

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The consequences are that the buyer does not get the modules he was trying to buy and he loses the broker fee.

The fact that the buyer was aware of this consequences, was prepared for them and didn't care because they enabled a higher gain by other means, does not make the mechanic broken. That's how eve works. Take suicide ganking. If I do it, I know I lose a ship and some sec status rating. I just do not care. Either because I have fun doing it or because your loot repays me and actually gives me a profit or for whatever reason.

Originally by: Thoraemond

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The weakness of the mechanism is in its design, rather than its implementation (i.e., it is not a simple "glitch")... it simply wouldn't work exactly like it does if it had been designed better.

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The strength of the mechanism is in its design and implementation. It both gives traders that use it for it's original purpose what they needed and opens the game up to a scam mechanic that is easily avoidable by non greedy players that do their homework but will hit hard on greedy gullible people that hoped for easy gains. This is exactly what CCP wants the game to be. Mechanisms that allow for scamming are not a defect if identifying the scam only requires some knowledge and a bit of work. They are intended, and often intentionally designed for, gameplay.

Originally by: Thoraemond

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A claim that there is no other way to implement Margin Trading that would remain useful to honest traders is either ill considered or disingenuous.

There are several simple alternative implementations that would retain the vast majority of the utility of Margin Trading, while reducing its utility for scamming:

• The Broker could require that the Buyer put enough ISK into escrow to at least buy the minimum order quantity. This would mean that margin would not be useful for single-item bids, but it would remain just as useful as it is now in most situations.



• The Broker could use up all the ISK posted to escrow by the Buyer to buy as many units as possible from the Seller before cancelling the remainder of the order. This would cut into the effectiveness of the scams, though it would not eliminate them.



• The Broker could immediately cancel any order for which the pilot does not have sufficient ISK in the relevant wallet to honour the fulfilment of the entire bid. This would mean that a pilot could post a number of bids on margin, as long as each, considered on its own, could be fulfilled at any time. Once you get beyond a few orders, this would tend to be materially the same as the current mechanism for most traders. This option might tend to increase server load.

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The third option will remove one of the important uses for traders and severely limit the others.

The second option is exactly how it works now.

The first, I hope they did it and advertise it to you personally, so I could scam you and prove you that it makes no difference at all (I guess you do not see why, which is in fact the reason I could still scam you).

Originally by: Thoraemond

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These differences would allow people to continue using Margin Trading for their market efforts, but would make it a bit less useful for scamming.

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One of them would actually reduce the skill viability for traders. Also "make it a bit less useful for scamming" is a reason not to change them.

Originally by: Thoraemond

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Scams are a reasonable part of life in EVE, but there's no need leave weak game mechanics like this in place to make scamming unnecessarily easy.

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If it's easy, go do it. Also mechanisms for scamming are not weak, they are just that: usable for scamming.

Posted - 2011.07.22 11:47:00 - [51]

 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Originally by: Loraine Gess

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Originally by: B3AKOHE

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Still, my petition is open, nobody responded yet, but nobody closed it either.

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One of the reasons why I am leaving. Anything not filed under "stuck" takes me 2-3 weeks just to see the petition status change from "open" to "in action".

I played and am playing totally minuscule other MMOs (one with 1000 subs!) and their responses vary from 10 minutes to 2-3 days. Figures!

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What?! A game with less petitions to sort through gets them done quicker?!? Madness.

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Yeah, because an 1k subs company has the same number of GMs as one with 300 times as many subs, so sorting thru petitions is easy mode! Oh wait.

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Except that you can count the number of petitions per day on two hands. Clearly this takes a lot of staff.

Posted - 2011.07.22 14:16:00 - [53]

 

Edited by: Rhivre on 22/07/2011 14:18:10
the margin trading scam works purely because the victim thinks the other guy is an idiot for putting up such an overpriced order. The "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is" applies in eve as well as real life.

Legitimate uses of margin trading?

I have 200 or so orders open at a time, region wide buys, station sells...the region wide buys take a while to fill.

If I have (random number pulling here) 5bn in sell orders, which I know will go during the week, and 10bn in buy orders, which will take a month to fill totally, and 4bn liquid, then, provided I rotate my stock, there will always be enough liquid to pay for the buy orders.

EDIT: In addition, if one of my orders fails due to lack of liquid, the guy can just sell to the next person on the list

Posted - 2011.07.22 15:50:00 - [55]

 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 22/07/2011 12:12:04

Originally by: Loraine Gess

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Except that you can count the number of petitions per day on two hands. Clearly this takes a lot of staff.

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Smaller game does not mean linearly smaller or less issues.

The small games have lots of unpolish and bugs. There are endemic issues like the player housing's door lock unable to be unlocked to enter, characters often getting stuck under the terrain, guild containers not opening for members, bosses often not dropping anything (so a GM has to manually respawn them or give loot) and much more.

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EVE gets about 1.2 petitions a year from each subscriber on average. If the 1000 subs company gets 5 petitions a year from each subscriber (and they do not) that still is workload for no more than 1 GM. Make it 2 to account for weekends, holidays, vacations, sickness, and uneven distribution of petition workload over the year.

Or more likely for a small company, make it 1 part time GM and 5 developers answering petitions for 2 hours and a half each day (on average).

Posted - 2011.07.22 16:52:00 - [57]

 

Originally by: AureoLion

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Albeit being whiny, he may have a point.
Margin trading should go nowhere, but minimum quantity should be 100% covered.

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You do realize that it makes absolutely no difference? Absolutely. No. Difference. It would just require an extra step for the scammer when setting up the trap.

Posted - 2011.07.22 16:57:00 - [59]

 

It's best to just chalk it up to stupidity on your own part and move on. I got caught by the scam for a different reason, and just ended up with an overpaid for implant and lost a couple hundred mil, nothing to lose sleep over. It's a pretty clever scam that takes a while to process the overall system of what happened. It's not as if I'll get caught again by it, and a no trading while drunk policy will help that. I had never before been caught in a scam, be it on contracts, trade windows etc, so this one was down to ignorance on my part and cleverness on the part of someone in abusing game mechanics.

I do think it is a ridiculously terrible mechanic that could be fixed, but I doubt that will ever happen. The scam works on a level I didn't even consider as possible until recently, because I didn't know how margin trading worked in that regard and had to do a bit of research (preventing me from losing more to the same scam incidentally). Ignorance of game mechanics loses you ISK, it's the nature of EVE.

Also, the same scam could be completed even without margin trading if the person is active and pulls the order after you buy their overpriced goods. Margin trading just makes it completely passive on the back end ensuring the order can never be filled even if the seller meets all the requirements (also makes the scam more effective because of the need to buy more items at inflated prices).

A fix could be something along the lines of adding a color coding scheme to the market in addition to the green and non-highlighted colors already used. Red to show a buy order that cannot be completed at all, orange for orders that the seller cannot cover a portion of. Might be too much work/server overhead, I don't know. Of course some old pro will come in here and throw a fit about the dumbing down of EVE etc or how colors will ruin their entire business because people wont sell to them. I'm not advocating a change at all, I just think its an unfortunately crappy side effect to the way margin trading works.