| Author |
Topic |
Dupre Indelian |
Posted - 2011.07.19 06:32:00 - [ 241]
 Originally by: Digital Messiah
Breaking news! Hybrid turrets are balanced when no one is locking you and you are in a fleet where you can get in range to apply your dps.
No they are not. Even in this situation they can barely keep up with the other races. They still suffer from high cap use and poor tracking. Even under the most optimal conditions the DPS very unimpressive. |
Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED |
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:28:00 - [ 242]
Edited by: Suitonia on 19/07/2011 07:29:02
Eve General Discussion is probably the wrong place for constructive conversation on ship and weapon balance given how many trolls are around. Heres my 2 cents on Blasters and the ships as a weapon system, why they're weak, and how I feel they can be best improved. I'm mostly a solo PvPer (Arguably where hybrids should shine most, but don't!) with over 2000 solo kills, and no, I have never killed anyone with a smartbomb, I have every racial ship and turret ship trained, and also, was one of the big brains behind both HYDRA RELOADED tournament teams. I know this is all Anecdotal evidence of my experience, but I'm just stating this beforehand because I see so many people with absolutely no experience at all with PvP in eve posting, or people whos only experience is shooting a POS with 200 dudes in Drakes as well as lots of people on troll/alt accounts claiming that Blasters are fine, or that Hybrids just need tracking and they'll be magically fixed.
The first thing I think CCP should look at, is not Blasters, or Rails but rather, the ships themselves. This is also a big mistake I see many "Blasters are fine" counter-arguments use, they don't look at the ships, where there are so many problems inherinted from ships that haven't been changed since 2003 back when Blasters were actually strong.
- Ship Fittings -
A lot of Hybrid ships suffer from having completely gimped fittings when compared to their counterparts. The best example I can give you is to take a look at the Thorax and Moa compared to the Rupture.
Thorax: 300 CPU, 820 PG.
Moa: 360 CPU, 780 PG.
Rupture: 325 CPU, 860PG.
First thing of note to point out, The Rupture has BOTH more PG and CPU than the Thorax, Secondly, the resources for Autocannons are consideribly less than than those needed for Blasters, and finally, the Rupture only needs to fit 4 Guns, compared to the Thorax and Moas 5.
It's stupid that the Rupture can Fit the Following, MWD, highest Tier Guns, A medium Neut, A large shield extender, without any issues what so ever. The Thorax can't even fit highest tier guns with a MWD, let alone fitting any defensive modules, Requiring a downgrade or a T2 RCU, The MOA is even worse, you need absolutely max fitting skills and a T2 RCU just to fit MWD and highest tier guns.
When you understand that other ships often have much much easier time fitting, that the Hybrid ships like the Thorax and Moa have to sacrifice so much just to get highest tier weapons, and if they don't make this sacrifice they usually end up doing Equivilant damage with a weapon system that has terrible range, or to gain a DPS advantage they end up throwing away any semblance of a tank, meaning that they end up losing in blaster optimal anyway because the DPS difference doesn't outweigh the EHP loss.
This is something that only applies to Gallente ships rather than the Caldari, but why on earth does the Thorax and the Brutix has one less overall slot (one less highslot) than all the racial equilvilants, this takes away a utility slot for a neutraliser, nos or any other highslot module of preference for no reason, adding further weaknesses to the ship for no gain. Gallente ships often will have to downgrade to sets of warriors because of this, instead of using the 50m3 drone bays on the Astarte, Brutix or Thorax, because they inexplicatly lose out on a highslot, further lowering their so called DPS advantage.
Fact: A Thorax will lose to a Rupture in Blaster Optimal. Here in lies the Problem. It's not so much that blasters suffer 1/3rd of the range for a small DPS increase, it's more to do with the fact that the ships are so gimped that it's just so much easier to fit a bigger tank, higher tier weapons, on top of neuts and anything else you can think on the other ships.
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Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED |
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:35:00 - [ 243]
Now on to the second problem, Hybrid ships are horribly slow. The Deimos is slower than Both the Muninn and Zealot, 2 long range sniper based ships. Why? Please tell me Why? Honestly, it's dumb that the Drone Boat Equilvilants are just barely slower than the Blaster ships that need to get into optimal range. This problem is further emphasised in the fact that Gallente ships are often Armor Tanked, further slowing you down, if you don't fit your trimarks you end up losing in Blaster optimal anyway, since the opposing ship just has a better EHP/DPS ratio. If you do fit trimarks, chances are you won't make it into Blaster range anyway. The Caldari Hybrid ships are just so outright slow that it doesn't matter what you fit on them, they're too slow. Chances are even if you get your opponent in scram/web range, if they have the equilvilant electronic warfare, or hell, either one of the two, chances are you aren't going to win even when you eventually get into blaster optimal. This has gotten even worse since the Rig size adjustment, meaning a vast majority of people fits +armor/shield% rigs on everything.
Hybrid ships often have huge signature radius too, why is the Deimos 165m compared to the Zealots 125m3? which means they get tracked by bigger ships more easily, this is completely stupid. The ships that risk themselves by putting themselves in web range of other ships become easier to track and die easier than a ship that shouldn't have been in web range in the first place.
In my opinion, The Hybrid ships need rebalanced top speeds so they can actually get into blaster optimal, Ideally I'd like to see improved base speeds, with possibly more mass added, with agility tweaked so that it remains the same, so that blaster ships don't actually get kited in scram/web range, which is stupid. Additionally, it makes them harder to be hit by bigger ships that they have to enter web range to face anyway, preventing the odd fact that blaster ships are the easiest to track for bigger ships while having to take the most risks. They also need less gimped fittings so that they can actually fit the equilivilant tier weapons and tanking modules to other ship classes, Give The Brutix/Thorax the inexplanable missing highslot, and finally, give the actual weapon systems some small amount of love to compensate for the fact that they have massive drawbacks for little gain BEFORE EVEN TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THESE MASSIVE ISSUES.
Thank you for reading, and please, smack the idiots who think "better tracking" is going to solve all these issues. Suitonia signing out 07
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Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising |
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:41:00 - [ 244]
Originally by: Suitonia
Thank you for reading, and please, smack the idiots who think "better tracking" is going to solve all these issues. Suitonia signing out 07
oh it helps, but just boosting tracking alone won't do a thing to them. blaster ships would still be unable to reach anything before they are in deep hull. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E |
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:56:00 - [ 245]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/07/2011 08:16:43 Originally by: Suitonia
First thing of note to point out, The Rupture has BOTH more PG and CPU than the Thorax, Secondly, the resources for Autocannons are consideribly less than than those needed for Blasters, and finally, the Rupture only needs to fit 4 Guns, compared to the Thorax and Moas 5.
The Rupture does have slots for up to 6 crusier size weapons/modules though instead of 5. Now there are very good reasons to go for frigate size modules in the utility slots (saving on fittings being one), but the fittings are actually not that much different if you take a full cruiser size loadout into consideration. Thats not to say the Thorax shouldnt get a bit more grid, but those fittings didnt fall out of clear blue sky. Originally by: Suitonia
Now on to the second problem, Hybrid ships are horribly slow. The Deimos is slower than Both the Muninn and Zealot, 2 long range sniper based ships. Why?
The only configuration where the Deimos is really slower than the Zealot is 800/1600mm plated and trimarked. And it is faster than the Muninn in any configuration btw, which is a joke on its own. It really is bloody damn quick for its damage output, the only quirk there is the Zealot being kinda fast for being amarr. Sig radius is another discussion, but keep in mind ships are easier to track when they are far, so there is some reason in Zealots low sig radius. |
Shadow Wind
Gallente
Crimson Empire. |
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:12:00 - [ 246]
Yeah how about a boost to incomming repairs from all sources (repair drones included) rather than repair module bonus, how about bonuses to all drone effective rather than just combat drones? That would make Gallente usefulness much higher. |
WeeZeLL |
Posted - 2011.07.25 22:39:00 - [ 247]
Originally by: MeBiatch
Edited by: MeBiatch on 13/07/2011 22:31:31
Edited by: MeBiatch on 13/07/2011 19:16:44
Hybrid fix:
idea for blasters would be close range arties... (basically keep dps the same but increase alpha decrease rof to ofset, plus increase base tracking)
Railguns: make them long range autocannons (increase base damage and rof, reduce cap activity amount)
Change the 10% to optimal range bonus on Caldari ships to 5% to ROF...
hybrid ammo:
make it a true mix between energy and projectile... (give a base tracking bonus added to the cap reduction bonus)
plus make:
antimater 50/50 therm/kin damage = -50% to optimal range
uranium 80/20 therm/kin -50% to optimal range
plutonium 20/80 therm/kin) -50% to optimal range
thorium 70/30 therm/kin -20% optimal range 1.15% increase to tracking -25% to activation cost...
lead 30/70 therm/kin 0% change to optimal range 1.075% increase to tracking -35% to activation cost...
iridium 50/50 therm/kin 20% change to optimal range 1.035% increase to tracking -40% to activation cost...
thungsten 80/20 therm/kin 40% change to optimal range 1.0175% increase to tracking -45% to activation cost...
iron 20/80 therm/kin 60% change to optimal range 0% change to tracking -50% to activation cost...
make there options for gallente ships to get close
1st is speed option
so give gallente ships all reduced mass plus make a mass reduction bonus to some ships (like deimos, mega all ships that currently get falloff/tracking bonus now get mass reduction bonus)
2nd: make the 7.5% to armor repper amount per level to include incomming RR
3rd. change the trimark penilty from max speed to agility...
Presto Gallente/Hybrids are fixed
plus gallente/caldari ships are now balanced against each other...
caldari will have the highest dps and gallente highest alpha...
because 5% rof = 33% increase to dps but no increase to alpha... but 5% to base damage is 25% increase to both dps and alpha...
imagine how usefull rokhs will be when you can do 1k dps @ 100km
this |
Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2011.07.25 22:47:00 - [ 248]
Edited by: Ineka on 25/07/2011 22:48:25 Originally by: Takakura Hirohito
Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 08/07/2011 19:22:51
VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT: to keep EVE interesting, weapons (and ships) need to be balanced by enhancing their differences. It would be terrible if things were balanced by making them more similar to each other.
An example of intelligently balancing hybrids would be increasing the range on railguns, and increasing the damage and tracking on blasters. We DO NOT want blasters to be tweaked so they become more like pulse lasers or autocannons.
Another example would be decreasing the damage and increasing the rate-of-fire on pulse and beam lasers while increasing the damage and reducing the rate-of-fire on artillery projectile turrets. Lasers should have a high damage output and good range, but very little alpha. Their damage should be quite steady. Conversely, artillery should have moderate damage but outrageous alpha, less DPS but more alpha than they even have now.
You're right, leave them has they are and let's all train minmatar amarr, it's so much better isn't? Because it's what happens when someone flying gallente finally understands why he can't have the same game experience than he's friends flying minmatar or amarr. So keep it interesting for a few and keep screwing the most part of them ->50% of the races can use hybrids witch means a lot of unused/not popular ships/weapon system. But you can always tell me your story "I was there" back in 2000 B.C. |
Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2011.07.25 23:59:00 - [ 249]
Originally by: Suitonia
Thank you for reading, and please, smack the idiots who think "better tracking" is going to solve all these issues. Suitonia signing out 07
I don't PvP much, but as a Bartle "Explorer" type who likes to know the ins and outs of a game, what you say in these two posts jibes perfectly with what I've concluded myself, from talking to players and my own researches. It's mainly the ships - as you say, fitting and speed - not so much hybrids themselves. The Gallente ships (particularly blasterboats - droneboats seem to be pretty much ok) are, at the moment, balanced for a much earlier period in EVE's history, and other ships have long since surpassed them in effectiveness. This should be obvious from the paper DPS effectiveness of hybrids. They look quite balanced. If they're not as effective in actual use as other options (granted the same pilot skill - and we can see many comments from people who can fly anything subcap, who say the same things), then logically there has to be something wrong with the ships using them and the way they're fit. Blasterboats at high skill ought to be able to fit their highest T2 weapons easily (and lots of 'em) and able to use them effectively; it constantly surprises me the struggle one has trying to fit them to maximise the effectiveness of what should be their native weaponry. And yes, speed. Even from a lore point of view, Gallente are supposed to have the highest tech in the EVE universe apart from the Jovians, so they should have no trouble being able to push their heavy ships fast enough to get into blaster range, even if only for short bursts; and their webs should be slightly more effective. They are the "melee" equivalent in EVE - high damage, high risk, high reward, it absolutely has to be a part of their capabilities to "bull rush". Caldari obviously aren't so tied with blasters, so the changes to them need to make rails more viable for them, bearing in mind their main strength is in missiles. |
Bunnyy Lebowski |
Posted - 2011.07.26 00:19:00 - [ 250]
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r0selan
Kasar Infinae |
Posted - 2011.07.27 11:34:00 - [ 251]
I have 11m sp, 8 in drones, 270k in guns, and do mainly missions in my little time play. As I did hit the roof of what drones can do, and After reading all the horror of hybrids I decided to train for projectiles instead of hybrids. course, i fly a navy domi, and now my hybrid and projectiles skills are equal. With gallente bs at 4, I have a 20% damage bonus on hybrids.
I take some time to do some tests. As I play like an hour per evening, I can keep the mission open for the next day I play, and compare results.
I fit 2 to 4 armor resits depending on the mission, meaning I have 2 to 4 slots for gyros/magstabs and tracking enhancers. on the autocannon domi, I can easily replace a cap recharger with a tracking/range script mod, and still have more cap time (more on this later). I fit meta 4 guns. 5 350, 5 ion blasters, or 5 800 ac. A part that, i fit a faction armor rep, 2 ommis for drones, and a sentry dmg rig. I use "bounties in 20 minutes" to roughly compare fits.
tl;dr for angel, drones, and amarr missons, autocannons rules. For serpentis and EoM, it depends, but generally AC is way more practical.
Railguns, with my fit and skills are better against 35+ orbiting eom and serpentis bs. And that's all. Even there my DPS is only marginally lower, thanx to my drones. for stuff further 65km, rails apply some damage, but that's not really relevant in my mission time.
Blasters are never better than AC for missions.
Autocannons shine most with rats BS orbiting close, overall angels. By the time they come close, they are dead. Simple as that. With blasters I have to fit an mwd, or at least an ab and/or a web, and overall switch from sentries to heavies to be in falloff. (against angels, I use bersekers anyway for close BSs, due to bouncers' bad tracking and angels thermal resistance. So this advantage of AC is neutralised, but even then...).
AC non cap usage is incredibly nice when under heavy fire with the armor rep running full speed. With rails, I sometime have to stop firing to continue repping and not warp out, letting drones slowly kill stuff. Yet, that's when the action is at it's pike and I need guns most. In these situation, autocannons are priceless.
AC track better, and that change the way I play. I can now down frigs, cruisers and bc with my guns, even those orbiting relatively close, giving more options and better target prioritization.
All in all, AC allow me to manage missions more easily, allowing me to fit less tank and more gank. I didn't try it, but I seriously believe I could do most angel missions with no tank at all and go full gank.
and that's with the 20% bonus to hybrids I have.
that's only a low level pve experience, yet I now fully understand all the rambling about hybrids ;)
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Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:46:00 - [ 252]
Originally by: Suitonia
Stuff
Like +1 +rep Other stuff |
Cannibal Kane
Kane's Terrorist |
Posted - 2011.07.27 13:12:00 - [ 253]
Edited by: Cannibal Kane on 27/07/2011 13:11:58 Originally by: Dupre Indelian
They still suffer from high cap use .
Wait.. I though this threat was about Hybrid... not LaZors? |
Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire |
Posted - 2011.07.27 13:17:00 - [ 254]
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: Suitonia
Stuff
Like
+1
+rep
Other stuff
Agreed! Was a long read but agree on all points. I hope officials will read this. TL.DR: Both hybrids and hybrid platforms need to addressed. Those that think boosted tracking will fix everthing are wrong, check math, compare other races; ships. |
Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 13:28:00 - [ 255]
I agree as well. Hybrids are broken. |
Precisionist |
Posted - 2011.07.27 14:35:00 - [ 256]
Fixed hybrids CCP instead of coming useless non working content that have no purpose like Maller graphic changes and captain quarters. |
Adonlude
ANZAC ACADEMY
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 23:41:00 - [ 257]
I agree. Fix hybrids. I want so desperately to use my Rokh and buy an Eagle and stuff.
/Signed |
DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2011.07.28 00:20:00 - [ 258]
Close to six years and 83mil sp and I still haven't found a reason to train medium/large rail specs.
Make it happen, i'm running out of subcap skills to train! |
Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium. |
Posted - 2011.08.09 21:25:00 - [ 259]
A month and a day, with no response from CCP after nine pages? If I bring up the thread I posted before this asking for a time line. It has been almost four months! More and more it is looking like soon™, actually means never. Please CCP get hybrids fixed so I can actually, sanely, consider, training them on this character. |
Ager Agemo
Caldari
Care Factor |
Posted - 2011.08.09 23:08:00 - [ 260]
i completely agree with the fact big part of the problem is on the platform, trying to fit a full rack of tier 3 railguns on a rokh is short of impossible without using reactor control units, and even if you have the skills implants and modules to fit them and keep some tank and tracking bonuses, they still do lame damage, in the end i fitted my rokh with AC and it worked much better which is sorta stupid given it is supposedly a specialized hybrid platform. |
Holy One
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 00:02:00 - [ 261]
Its been 9 pages of silence. 9 pages of pain ..
9 pages that are gone forever and I'll never have again.
ps: FREE KARTOON NOW. |
Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium. |
Posted - 2011.08.10 04:44:00 - [ 262]
Originally by: Ager Agemo
i completely agree with the fact big part of the problem is on the platform, trying to fit a full rack of tier 3 railguns on a rokh is short of impossible without using reactor control units, and even if you have the skills implants and modules to fit them and keep some tank and tracking bonuses, they still do lame damage, in the end i fitted my rokh with AC and it worked much better which is sorta stupid given it is supposedly a specialized hybrid platform.
Another valid reason why this issue needs to be addressed sooner than later. And still no information on what soon means. |
Selinate
Amarr |
Posted - 2011.08.10 04:46:00 - [ 263]
Edited by: Selinate on 10/08/2011 04:48:26 Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Has anyone noticed that the only reason we say Amarr is on par with Minmatar is Scorch. It is litterally there only saving grace.
Also +1 Balance the game.
Scorch? It's good, yeah, but I also use conflagration when I get close enough, and it boosts my dps by a large amount when I do... |
Bart Starr |
Posted - 2011.08.10 05:00:00 - [ 264]
Nah, Hybrids/Gallente are fine. Ignore the whiners, when they L2EVE they'll see why. |
Ludi Tomina
Gallente
BALKAN EXPRESS
HUN Reloaded |
Posted - 2011.08.10 08:46:00 - [ 265]
Suitonias suggestions sound very logical. + 1 to you sir.
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Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium. |
Posted - 2011.08.10 09:51:00 - [ 266]
Originally by: Ludi Tomina
Suitonias suggestions sound very logical. + 1 to you sir.
There is a glutton of great ideas in this thread. All the information is set in front of the balancing team. Please for the love of new eden just do something. Make a small change with #'d patches like you do with everything else. Add in slight differences to the turrets and ships. 1. large group of players will test the changes. 2. you will get feedback... "there will be blood in the water" 3. supercaps = end game pvp anyways, you won't break anything. 4. you will probably break the turrets i take #3 back. 5. everyone will be ecstatic to see this issue reviewed. |
Jebel Krong
Gallente
Hyper-Global-Mega-Tech
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 10:31:00 - [ 267]
Hybrids need buffing, fitting blasters is like picking up a greatsword and running at a guy with a rifle. Sure, if you can get in range you can mangle him, but he's far more likely to have shot you before you get there. I'd settle for higher tracking on railguns but basters are truly broken IMO, every time I hear someone talking about the DPS their Gankathron does it makes me laugh since that DPS relies on being able to get inside 10km with neither ship moving.
And the fact that Hybrids need both cap and ammo makes them unique among the weapons in EVE, I'm not saying that's a bad thing but I would like to see them buffed a bit somewhere. Especially since drones got nerfed. |
Jaroslav Unwanted |
Posted - 2011.08.10 10:59:00 - [ 268]
Well after i read few "suggestions"
I cant help myself but it all seems .. make all gallante ships like vindicator but better.
What would Vindicator have then ?
I never trained hybrids not because i think they are horrible but because i liked the sound of auto-cannons when i started.
Still if i may i agree with everyone. |
Hansemandse's Clone |
Posted - 2011.08.10 11:15:00 - [ 269]
/Signed
Hybrids need love |
WisdomLikeSilence
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League |
Posted - 2011.08.10 11:24:00 - [ 270]
Hybrids: need cap, need Ammo, 10 second reload, No selective damage type.
ALL of the drawbacks! in one handy weapons system - for convenience!
As for gallente ships themselves: shortest range, slow speed, lowest pg/cpu for their weapons systems. who WOULDNT you want to fly one. Gallente - the HONOUR tanking race. |
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