| Author |
Topic |
Ezra Vouland
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans |
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:21:00 - [ 1]
It doesn't.
The few who will pay for "Gold Ammo" (If it ever happens since it is all speculation currently) will die just as quick as the rest of us. Isk and the market have been trivial for a long time . Hell I catch myself spending an extra 10-100mil isk just because I am to lazy to move 8 jumps. Maybe you carebears should clet the MT go through, give ait a try. It might even improve things.
Also the whole notion Pay 2 Win is ******ed. Just because you have the money and skill points to fly a ship, doesn't mean you know how to use it. |
Benri Konpaku |
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:22:00 - [ 2]
Short sight is not a good attribute, so stop bragging about it. |
VKhaun Vex |
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:33:00 - [ 3]
 Originally by: Ezra Vouland
It doesn't.
The few who will pay for "Gold Ammo" (If it ever happens since it is all speculation currently) will die just as quick as the rest of us. Isk and the market have been trivial for a long time . Hell I catch myself spending an extra 10-100mil isk just because I am to lazy to move 8 jumps. Maybe you carebears should clet the MT go through, give ait a try. It might even improve things.
Also the whole notion Pay 2 Win is ******ed. Just because you have the money and skill points to fly a ship, doesn't mean you know how to use it.
Agreed. No one has shown me, ever, how any good items in the Aurum shop would ever hurt the game. They'd all still be available through ISK->PLEX so nothing would change on the side of paying vs farming. They just say people are clueless or ignorant and post a random ass link to something they think supports their phantom issue they can't define. |
Ezra Vouland
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans |
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:39:00 - [ 4]
Originally by: Benri Konpaku
Short sight is not a good attribute, so stop bragging about it.
How will it effect it in the long run? I would like someone to enlighten me with the facts of how MT will hurt the long run. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate |
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:40:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: VKhaun Vex
Agreed.
No one has shown me, ever, how any good items in the Aurum shop would ever hurt the game. They'd all still be available through ISK->PLEX so nothing would change on the side of paying vs farming.
They just say people are clueless or ignorant and post a random ass link to something they think supports their phantom issue they can't define.
There ya go. Let me know if you've any questions. Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Micro-transaction items require virtually no input from the sandbox to create. For example, a ship magically created removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.
This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each micro-transaction created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more MT items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.
Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, they have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.
Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.
The only ones who profit from MTs are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but of everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the MT created items.
MTs are theft.
|
Ezra Vouland
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans |
Posted - 2011.06.27 23:44:00 - [ 6]
Edited by: Ezra Vouland on 27/06/2011 23:44:37 Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: VKhaun Vex
Agreed.
No one has shown me, ever, how any good items in the Aurum shop would ever hurt the game. They'd all still be available through ISK->PLEX so nothing would change on the side of paying vs farming.
They just say people are clueless or ignorant and post a random ass link to something they think supports their phantom issue they can't define.
There ya go. Let me know if you've any questions.
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Micro-transaction items require virtually no input from the sandbox to create. For example, a ship magically created removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.
This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each micro-transaction created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more MT items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.
Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, they have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.
Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.
The only ones who profit from MTs are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but of everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the MT created items.
MTs are theft.
Your quote failed to prove anything. That is just soem dudes thoughts. What is gameplay value anyways. Personally I rather buy stuff due to I dont wan't to mine or od any of that menial crap. I want to roam, kill and steal peoples stuff at my leisure. Enough with peoples make believe ideas of what it WILL do. Where are some facts and evidence it WILL break the game. All this speculation makes you look ignorant as politicians. |
Doctor Leo Spaceman |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:02:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
Edited by: Ezra Vouland on 27/06/2011 23:44:37
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: VKhaun Vex
Agreed.
No one has shown me, ever, how any good items in the Aurum shop would ever hurt the game. They'd all still be available through ISK->PLEX so nothing would change on the side of paying vs farming.
They just say people are clueless or ignorant and post a random ass link to something they think supports their phantom issue they can't define.
There ya go. Let me know if you've any questions.
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Micro-transaction items require virtually no input from the sandbox to create. For example, a ship magically created removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.
This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each micro-transaction created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more MT items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.
Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, they have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.
Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. Thy put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.
The only ones who profit from MTs are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but of everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the MT created items.
MTs are theft.
Your quote failed to prove anything. That is just soem dudes thoughts. What is gameplay value anyways. Personally I rather buy stuff due to I dont wan't to mine or od any of that menial crap. I want to roam, kill and steal peoples stuff at my leisure.
Enough with peoples make believe ideas of what it WILL do. Where are some facts and evidence it WILL break the game. All this speculation makes you look ignorant as politicians.
Just because you don't understand basic economic theory doesn't mean it's just random words. Eve is/was a closed economy. CCP entering the market opens it and destabilizes a balanced equation. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:05:00 - [ 8]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
Your quote failed to prove anything. That is just soem dudes thoughts. What is gameplay value anyways. Personally I rather buy stuff due to I dont wan't to mine or od any of that menial crap. I want to roam, kill and steal peoples stuff at my leisure.
Your lack of comprehension is not my responsibility. Some people do like that menial crap, as you put it. If you can just go buy your ammo, then no one needs to do that menial crap. For some that menial crap is "game play value". Not to mention, if people aren't out doing as much menial crap, you'll have less defenseless carebears to shoot. Originally by: Ezra Vouland
Enough with peoples make believe ideas of what it WILL do. Where are some facts and evidence it WILL break the game. All this speculation makes you look ignorant as politicians.
It's called economics. Go get a book and crack it open and maybe you won't sound like such a ignorant punk. |
Takseen |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:08:00 - [ 9]
For me the MT isn't something I care about. Its that CCP have overstretched themselves to the point that not only is Eve Online not getting the development attention it deserves(IE no really good patch since Apocrypha) but subscribers need to be milked for extra money just to keep them from going under financially. |
Kirkland Langue
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:09:00 - [ 10]
EVE has always been more about "investing for the future" than "playing the game as it stands today". That's why Players were more than happy to spend years skilling up alts to one day fly the big ships. That's why the economy works so well - because many players take a long view and are willing to invest 10's of billions of ISK that won't see a profit for 1-2 years.
It's also why so many players have stuck with the game and mostly accepted the past few expansions (including this one) even though the expansions were almost completely crap ... the expansions hinted at a better future. But when all of these revelations come about that CCP cares far more about short term profits, at the expense of the core game - then that reinforces the complaints of the few over the years: that CCP is ready to throw EVE under the bus to make a buck.
Maybe CCP should be willing to do that - they are a business after all... but that doesn't mean that Players will gracefully accept it without a word. The leaked email seems to indicate that CCP anticipated the outcry and has accepted it. So be it - it is their game after all.
The real question is why are all of the apologists trying to stick up for CCP when CCP has already stated that they knew this outrage would happen? |
Irie Irie Irie
Caldari
Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:09:00 - [ 11]
There ought to be an I.Q. test on players prior to allowing them to post on the forums. |
Duvida
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:11:00 - [ 12]
Basically, everything you buy on the market was created by other players. It gave them a reason to be in the game. Take that away through MT's and you take away the reason for many players to subscribe, thus emptying and eventually closing down EVE.
Another thing that affects gameplay for me is the heat issue caused by my video card working harder than before the patch. I can't use CQ at all. Others are having problems as well, so can't use the game. Basically if you aren't being driven away by the possibilities of unfair fights fueled by a credit card, or driven away by the reasons you play being completely removed by MT, then you're being shut out by your computer crashing from attempting to render EVE's new graphics. There is no win here. |
Kirkland Langue
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:12:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: Takseen
For me the MT isn't something I care about. Its that CCP have overstretched themselves to the point that not only is Eve Online not getting the development attention it deserves(IE no really good patch since Apocrypha) but subscribers need to be milked for extra money just to keep them from going under financially.
This is actually what I wrote in my "why are you unsubscribing" blurb. I do care about the MT junk.. a LOT.. but it pales in comparison for my frustration at seeing numerous expansions that were incredibly half-baked. Always promises of building upon systems in the future - just to see those promises thrown aside in favor of a new half-baked expansion. |
Darkside007 |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:14:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
It doesn't.
The few who will pay for "Gold Ammo" (If it ever happens since it is all speculation currently) will die just as quick as the rest of us. Isk and the market have been trivial for a long time . Hell I catch myself spending an extra 10-100mil isk just because I am to lazy to move 8 jumps. Maybe you carebears should clet the MT go through, give ait a try. It might even improve things.
Also the whole notion Pay 2 Win is ******ed. Just because you have the money and skill points to fly a ship, doesn't mean you know how to use it.
But if your ship has 24 fitting slots, 80% base resists, PG and CPU to fit the heaviest of everything, and an effectively infinite amount of cap, you don't *need* to know how to use it, since only another "gold ammo" ship can kill you. To varying degrees, that's what people are worried about. High-end modules, extra SP and powerful ships all only available for cash. Also - one of those "menial stuff" lunatics who like mining. |
Rividien Calennand
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:22:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
Your quote failed to prove anything. That is just soem dudes thoughts. What is gameplay value anyways. Personally I rather buy stuff due to I dont wan't to mine or od any of that menial crap. I want to roam, kill and steal peoples stuff at my leisure.
Your lack of comprehension is not my responsibility. Some people do like that menial crap, as you put it. If you can just go buy your ammo, then no one needs to do that menial crap. For some that menial crap is "game play value". Not to mention, if people aren't out doing as much menial crap, you'll have less defenseless carebears to shoot.
this. the game is not just about the pew pew, and you should realize that. that quote proves that CCP would destroy everything they worked on in the last 8 years IF they are going to implement game-affecting items in the NeX. |
Shigeru Potatomoto |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:24:00 - [ 16]
This isn't about paying to win, this about paying to win getting more expensive (real world money instead of what you farm on your two hulk accounts) and being controlled by the company instead of CCP.
Most of these hair-pulling, face clawing screamers are mad because a guy on one account will be on the same footing as a guy on five thanks to AUR.
It's like how the hardcore WoW players rage every time Blizzard makes it easier to get top tier gear. They "worked hard", lost girlfriends, and flunked out of college to get those purple shoulders, and now some random jackoff is going to get it for nothing.
And since when did people actually fight 1v1 in EVE anyway? |
robbyx |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:24:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
It doesn't.
The few who will pay for "Gold Ammo" (If it ever happens since it is all speculation currently) will die just as quick as the rest of us. Isk and the market have been trivial for a long time . Hell I catch myself spending an extra 10-100mil isk just because I am to lazy to move 8 jumps. Maybe you carebears should clet the MT go through, give ait a try. It might even improve things.
Also the whole notion Pay 2 Win is ******ed. Just because you have the money and skill points to fly a ship, doesn't mean you know how to use it.
Sigh, another short sighted moron who cant see past his own stupidity... If this goes through, it sends a clear message to all game developers that they can also do it. Soon you will go down to the store and pay $60 for a boxed game, load it up and be meet with a screen telling you "you need to subscribe to play this game"...."oh you want a gun as well, $20 please"...."oh you want to leave your base, $10 please"...."oh, you want ammo for your $20 gun, that'll be $15 please"..."oh you want to play with friends, $20 please". This is the way the gaming industry is headed unless we stop it...WoT already charges you money just to be able to group with friends...in a so called F2P game....not long ago that was a fundamental part of online gaming....now they have begun to charge for it. This greedy bulls**t has got to stop. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:26:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
Originally by: Benri Konpaku
Short sight is not a good attribute, so stop bragging about it.
How will it effect it in the long run? I would like someone to enlighten me with the facts of how MT will hurt the long run.
Originally by: Benri Konpaku
Short sight is not a good attribute, so stop bragging about it.
|
Kirika Misono
The Eiken Club
|
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:32:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
It doesn't.
The few who will pay for "Gold Ammo" (If it ever happens since it is all speculation currently) will die just as quick as the rest of us. Isk and the market have been trivial for a long time . Hell I catch myself spending an extra 10-100mil isk just because I am to lazy to move 8 jumps. Maybe you carebears should clet the MT go through, give ait a try. It might even improve things.
Also the whole notion Pay 2 Win is ******ed. Just because you have the money and skill points to fly a ship, doesn't mean you know how to use it.
+1. This protest **** is the stupidest thing to sweep eve in some time. |
Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:32:00 - [ 20]
I think this is the 30th thread this week where the inheritors of EVE fail to realize just how terribly it will screw up if this MT trend continues.
But what do I know, I've already left for another game, and only exist to feebly try and get CCP to change. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:33:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Shigeru Potatomoto
<bull****>
Get a face |
The Offerer
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:34:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
What is gameplay value anyways. Personally I rather buy stuff due to I dont wan't to mine or od any of that menial crap. I want to roam, kill and steal peoples stuff at my leisure.
Enough with peoples make believe ideas of what it WILL do. Where are some facts and evidence it WILL break the game. All this speculation makes you look ignorant as politicians.
Hello, mister consumer. You, as a prime example of a consumer in its natural habitat, don't care where the stuff is coming from as long as you get what you want for your currency. It doesn't really matter to you that many professions and players in the game will be destroyed if you take away their gameplay. Here, let me show you with this nice little flowchart the parts of the game that are connected and depend on each other: http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/MTGraph01.jpgNow tell me, what part of that graph do you think could be removed and not hurt the game, destroy other professions and force players that are doing the affected stuff out of the game? |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen |
Posted - 2011.06.28 00:41:00 - [ 23]
It can be likened to the British automotive industry. 30 years ago, hundreds of companies were producing cars in britain. Many people were employed, and lots of money changed hands.
Then introduce a foreign factory full of machines that can build the cars faster and with little to no human effort (CCPs MT store).
What happens? Thats right, british car companies either shut down or sell out to the foreign factories. British people (players) have less jobs, and less money is circulated among the populous.
But i'm sure you'l find some way to stick your fingers in your ear, or nose, or some other orifice and claim you still don't understand. |
Demure Guise |
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:02:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
It doesn't.
OK, one more time... and don't blame me because this is a long post. A short while ago, CCP proposed to sell a "Golden Scorpion" via MT for Aurum only. No trade-in ship was required, they said, because at that point the Store had no capability to accept trade-in items of any kind, although it would later on. The plan was to sell the ship "until the fall" and CCP asked CSM to look this plan over for a "yea or nay" opinion. The plan was dropped. OK, fine, nothing sinister there. Let's face it though - it has recently emerged that CCP need hard cash, and it's probably no coincidence they've started to sell things like the Lol-Monocle for $70-worth of Plex->Aurum. Vanity Items are fine, if over-priced, and it keeps CCP's Bankers happy. Nobody is bothered about vanity items, although there are players who have got it into their heads that vanity items are the issue everyone is mad about. Sorry guys, you're barking up the wrong tree. Personally I don't care if CCP sell tens of thousands of monocles, if people want them badly enough. As regards the selling of game-changing items, which IS the issue everyone is concerned about, CCP have never come right out and said "no" to the question "Are you ever going to sell game-changing items." There have been various comments along the lines of "No plans as yet to do so" but they said that last year about ANY micro-transactions whatsoever. Cut to 2011 and we now have Micro-Transactions. People remember this and would just like a straight answer about NON-vanity items. Twice, in the blogs they released in a bid to calm the growing anger, CCP failed to give a direct, unequivocal answer and halt all the conjecture and (let's face it) growing suspicions. Not only did they somehow not give a simple "No", they didn't even say "Yes, but only with a ship being traded in." Either of those answers would have succeeded in calming the storm in the forums and in calling off the Trade Hub blockades. Instead we ended up getting the extremely bizarre Parable Of The $1,000 Jeans which just poured petrol on the flames. OK, put the two God-awful Blogs CCP released down to botched PR or something, but the result so far is that the question about the sale of non-vanity items has still not been conclusively answered. The slang term 'Gold Ammo' has been interpreted as meaning 'All non-vanity items' and also interpreted as meaning simply 'ammo even better than Faction ammo'. If, as many people fear, the sale of Ships/items for Aurum out of thin air does come to pass, requiring no trade-in, this would be a Very Bad Thing for players. "Why?", some people persist in asking. Because it would royally screw individual players, and indeed entire corporations, who base their Eve careers on Mining and Industry. They would no longer be part of the equation should "Mr. 1-Day-Old NoobPlayer" and his associates with their nice fat wallets start magicking ships (and maybe whatever else) out of thin air, from a limitless supply. Take this further - what happens if people are able to start selling these ships on the Market? We have players who are, incredulously, more than happy to pay well over the odds for a trivial monocle. Imagine what they'd be willing to hand over for a Golden Ship! Maybe even a Golden Ship with enhancements such as an extra slot or two, or extra resistances, or special abilities like launching extra drones. Because of the demand for Plex, the cash would roll in... and CCP really seems to need cash. Far-fetched? Maybe in a years time? "If it helps CCP why not?" Absolutely unthinkable? Never? "Nah, it's all nothing but speculation anyway?" Frankly, nobody really knows until we get a DEFINITIVE answer. |
Tarinara |
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:23:00 - [ 25]
Originally by: Darkside007
To varying degrees, that's what people are worried about. High-end modules, extra SP and powerful ships all only available for cash.
Also - one of those "menial stuff" lunatics who like mining.
How about this that I bolded and underlined for all you 'The sky isn't really falling' types. 'Golden SP's' hit the NeX store and Danny Deep Pockets doesn't need to screw around waiting 2, 3 or however many months to skill up to do something. Ka-ching(!) - a Golden SP Certificate later and Danny just racked up 10mil SP's he can spend as he chooses. Not in a month or two, but a minute or two. Danny probably even laughs at you ( us... ) drudges who wasted months of their lives watching skill queues and crap when he does it too. And that's just an easy one to come up with. I'm sure others who have experience w/F2P + Cash Shop games can thing of lots of other ways MT/P2W items affect games. I've mentioned a few in other threadnaughts. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate |
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:25:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: The Offerer
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
What is gameplay value anyways. Personally I rather buy stuff due to I dont wan't to mine or od any of that menial crap. I want to roam, kill and steal peoples stuff at my leisure.
Enough with peoples make believe ideas of what it WILL do. Where are some facts and evidence it WILL break the game. All this speculation makes you look ignorant as politicians.
Hello, mister consumer. You, as a prime example of a consumer in its natural habitat, don't care where the stuff is coming from as long as you get what you want for your currency. It doesn't really matter to you that many professions and players in the game will be destroyed if you take away their gameplay.
Here, let me show you with this nice little flowchart the parts of the game that are connected and depend on each other:
http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/MTGraph01.jpg
Now tell me, what part of that graph do you think could be removed and not hurt the game, destroy other professions and force players that are doing the affected stuff out of the game?
Nice graph, should do it like a cloud, ya know? 'brain map' |
Mia Aires |
Posted - 2011.06.28 02:46:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
There ought to be an I.Q. test on players prior to allowing them to post on the forums.
+1 |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen |
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:48:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
There ought to be an I.Q. test on players prior to allowing them to post on the forums.
I'd just buy a better iq and troll you all |
Razor Blue
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric
The Polaris Syndicate |
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:50:00 - [ 29]
Originally by: Ezra Vouland
Originally by: Benri Konpaku
Short sight is not a good attribute, so stop bragging about it.
How will it effect it in the long run? I would like someone to enlighten me with the facts of how MT will hurt the long run.
Linkage |
Marchocias |
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:53:00 - [ 30]
MT for in-game-advantage-items is essentially equivalent to quantitative easing.
But rather than the government printing money (essentially devaluing your savings/investments, i.e. "stealing" from you), its would be CCP printing stuff (essentially devaluing all your stuff, i.e. "stealing" from your characters). |
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