| Author |
Topic |
 Serene Repose Caldari Perkone |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:30:00 - [ 1]
There's a cute truism in the U.S,: If you shoot someone breaking into your house and the body falls into your yard, drag it into the house. Why? If the body's in the yard, you'll be arrested for murder. If it's in your house you'll be praised for successfully defending your home. Why parse it that finely? Well, if not, who's to stop someone from just shooting someone in their yard, then claiming they were breaking into your house? That would be a neat little loophole useable to get rid of a few annoying neighbors. So, what's stopping someone from shooting an annoying neighbor in the yard, dragging that body into the house, then calling the police claiming they broke into your house? Nothing really, but you better be able to prove it by the preponderance of evidence, or you'll be tried for murder. They will arrest you and hold you till it's sorted out to their satisfaction (“they” being the police acting on behalf of the community.)
Something else that may be common knowledge; something that helped put the “wild” into “The Wild West.” In the western U.S. Territories, before they all became states, it was a hanging offense to steal a horse. In those days, of course, a man without a horse was likely to be a dead man. It's a very long walk to that next water hole, and it's hard to flee from hostile “Native Americans” on foot. Therefore, the horse was more than a pet, if you see the reasoning here. So, a man steals your horse. What do you do? Back then, you hoofed it to the nearest ranch, or settlement and proclaimed loudly, “Someone stole my horse!” Without hesitation every able-bodied man would arm himself with pistola or rifle, climb on their horses and ride off in pursuit of this horse thief, and more times than not they'd catch up to him. So, what did they do then, put him under citizen's arrest, take him to town and wait for the circuit judge to show up for a trial? No. They found the nearest suitable tree and hung him with a rope. (These guys always carried rope around with them.) Not only that. They'd also hang a sign around his neck, if materials were available (charcoal on an old piece of plank will suffice). “Horse thief.” That's all that needed to be said. It explained everything to everyone's satisfaction.
Oh, but I said “before they became 'states'.” What happened after they became “states”? After that the sovereignty of the state required the matter be placed before duly constituted law enforcement officials who investigated, made an arrest and brought the man to trial in a duly constituted court of law. He was afforded a defense attorney, and was prosecuted by a District Attorney who then had to prove before a jury of 12 men, without a “shadow of a doubt” that the man indeed committed the crime. Should that be successful, a sentencing hearing was held separate from the trial and sentence was passed that was “commensurate with the crime.” All that sounds nice and legal, right? (We get into legality we start harvesting those big words with more than two syllables.) What would happen if in all the excitement after the crime a group of citizens set off after the offender, tracked him down and in the fever of the hunt strung him up on a suitable tree? They would be arrested. The crime? Lynching. They have turned from protectors to a lynch mob. Interesting change, no? Why this change?
Well. I'll tell you. The word is “sovereignty.” The territory had transformed into a sovereign state. The thing about sovereign states is, they like to enforce their own sovereignty. They don't like you to do it unless you're employed by them to do it. They like to do it themselves so much that over the past three thousand years inestimable treasure and lives have been spent by sovereign states to enforce their sovereignty. (There are exceptions, of course; citizen's arrest, self-defense, etc., but these are so strongly codified that if you intend to make such a claim, you better be able to prove it, or you'll find yourself in jail, or prison, or worse; grudgingly accepted exceptions.) We all know, the normal run of things in life involves the state enforcing its own sovereignty, however, with professionals and equipment that costs the state plenty, and the state is always willing to pay. There are no exceptions in this. Never has been. Never will be. For, if a state cannot, or will not enforce its sovereignty, guess what? It has no sovereignty. All it has is a claim. No one has to honor a claim. This is such an indelible fact in human history that it goes without question, unless (of course) you're oblivious of history. |
 Serene Repose Caldari Perkone |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:32:00 - [ 2]
And, who's to argue? Isn't it by use of this law and order that human civilization enabled itself to achieve what greatness it has? Hasn't controlling by force, if need be, the behavior of individuals which run counter to the interests of the state been precisely why individuals with ideas of their own haven't been able to derail, circumvent or negate the progression of the civilization under the protection of this law and order; this expression of sovereignty? Axiomatically, haven't the failures of once-great civilizations been precisely due to the failure in organizing their sovereign states in a manner that is beyond ridicule, or self-contradictions? Yes, it is this organization with enforcement which allowed Enrico Fermi to pursue his career without it being cut short by marauders laying his town to ashes and murdering him and his family in their front yards. It's allowed the knowledge civilization has acquired to be passed forward instead of being destroyed in the murderous rampaging rage of an army of goons out for their own narrow interests with no regard for the future of humanity itself. In fact, the advancement of this knowledge and the organizing principals of the civilization go hand in hand. You can't have the one without the other. Interesting?
Which brings me to EVE. Everyone except the criminals (and even them on occasion, I'm sure) has wondered why if it says “Sovereignty...(fill in faction name)” on the UI, isn't this so-called sovereignty ever enforced when obvious crimes are committed? Oh sure. Someone shoots you willy-nilly and Concord comes running out and pops the offender. The offender warps his pod into a station, waits out the aggression timer and poof, it's as though nothing happened. Oh. You're free to get your corp (if you're in one, and it's big enough) to declare an expensive war on the offender's corp (if HE'S in one), and gain retribution by sanctioned disruption of the peace. (The management loves this as it's supposed to “stimulate the market, which is a goal of EVE and CCP.” Their words, not mine.)
Now, in real life. Someone shoots the tires of your car, all four. The police drive up in a fury, shoot his car totally out from under him rendering it useless. He gets out, runs to the nearest convenience store, sits there for a few minutes, then comes out as though nothing happened. The police see him there, and just ignore him. Right? RIGHT? Right. In a pig's eye “right.” Those police aren't there to exact vengeance for your loss. They aren't there to make you feel better. They're there to enforce the sovereignty of the state with deadly force if necessary, and they have no compunction about doing it. If the first responders can't pull it off, they send in more, and more, and more until they do pull it off. There is no limit. They will exact this enforcement or die trying. It's their job. Furthermore, do you see anyone calling the victim of the crime a “cry baby”, or a “care bear”? No. Only in EVE do we get this juvenile reaction. Interesting? I think it is.
I'll pose another situation. You're walking up the street and a guy comes running up to you and lifts your purse, or wallet, then runs into a nearby gas station. As long as he's outside the building running toward it, you can thump him to your heart's delight, assuming you're walking around with a gun or club and can run as fast as him. Once he's inside the gas station, you can go inside and sit down right next to him, stare at him as fiercely as you want and even say mean things to him, but that's all. After a few minutes, he can leave the station with your wallet or purse and he's not a criminal. He hasn't violated the state's sovereignty, AND if you manage to get your item back from him, he is free to shoot YOU. How's that for convoluted? |
 Pok Nibin Amarr |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:35:00 - [ 3]
Edited by: Pok Nibin on 20/06/2011 21:51:43 But, we all know, that's how EVE works. Furthermore, if you say anything about how ridiculous this is to CCP you get a jaded, yawning lecture on how EVE's game mechanics require this absurdity. The game would fall apart if it were changed. And, as you'll see in the responses to this post, a host of such criminals will attempt to make this ludicrous condition seem to make perfect sense, and anyone who doesn't think so is a crybaby who probably got his/her can flipped and is “butt hurt” about it. Some will even claim they don't participate in this criminal behavior, but support it just the same, and if you don't just go play Dora the Explorer and let the real gamers play EVE in peace. A psychiatrist (and eventually cultural anthropologists) will have a field day with this. But, after all, it is now said one in 14 people are psychopaths – or passive sociopaths. What's the rule of law, or enforcement of sovereignty to them? After all, they're just in it to destroy – which of course will stimulate the EVE economy which is a goal...CCP...
Yet, that's not really the point. The point is: How can highly-educated people who can present such a dimensionally strong digital sandbox such is EVE have lapsed so profoundly on such a fundamental principal of advanced civilization? How could CCP function from within such an advanced civilization in order to bring forth this (in my view) historically significant achievement and miss entirely the point of how it came about? My guess is the game architects know a great deal about the technical aspects of making an EVE happen (which undoubtedly is a great accomplishment in terms of the human history of knowledge and skill), but in achieving this expertise just hadn't had time to bone up adequately on other realms of knowledge which (like it or not) pertain directly to how this environment of New Eden plays out – that of the right-brained realm, or the so-called “liberal arts” end of the spectrum. It is my view that when it came to this part of the picture, the CCP staff ginned-up completely arbitrary parameters based on their own personal views and preferences, something computer programming as a skill would never allow. This leads me to believe this staff in a group-think environment define civilization as an arbitrary function, which would then lead them to completely misconstrue the concept of “sovereignty.” The result of this, as I've said before, is to make what could be a monumental achievement the object of ridicule, or at the least severe criticism that is only answered with ad hominem; hardly elegant.
The fix, of course, would be relatively simple without requiring an unaesthetic prosthetic. However, the scar would remain just the same, since such an extreme was reached in setting up the parameters of this sandbox with no parameters, or “rules.” And, yes, you're not kidding anybody. There are rules. (Rules crop up whether intended or not.) Take a look at the complicated and intricate process required to establish sovereignty in null sec space, or the “Outlaw Regions.” (Ironic isn't it? The only areas where classic enforcement of sovereignty is seen are in the “Outlaw Regions.”) Simply put, the only way to hold sovereignty from a challenger is by physical force. The parameters of this process are well-defined and methodically thought out. There are specific numbers that have to be met, timers, absolute methods to contravene in a way that is sanctioned by CCP. It'll take you longer to read up on how that's done than it'll take to read this post. |
 Makko Gray Pheno-Tech Industries Crimson Wings. |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:37:00 - [ 4]
Wow, nice thesis, now what's the TL;DR for those of use who can't be arsed to read it? |
 Atticus Fynch Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:37:00 - [ 5]
It's just a game.
Do you think that when I buy "Boardwalk" and "Park Place", I am actually buying "Boardwalk" and "Park Place?"
Of course not.
Likewise, the "sovereignty" mechanics in EVE don't have to reflect real-world examples of the definition. |
 Pok Nibin Amarr |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:37:00 - [ 6]
What makes the fix a hard pill to swallow for CCP is the back story to EVE. Anyone with a background in history, political science or government finds this story itself a bit on the difficult to swallow side. Briefly, there's four groups comprising separate “advanced civilizations” vying for the same limited area of New Eden. Much cataclysmic war occurs. The participants are depleted and horrified at the devastation, as well as the (presumably) negation of civilization's further advancement, and decide enough is enough. They hammer out a peace dividing the territory amongst each other, then (here's where it gets hinky), not trusting one another with guns, hire a fifth party (Concord) to enforce the law; sort of like everyone's Wyatt Earp.
The only thing is, there's no government in any of these factional regions, just a sledgehammer called Concord that whomps offenders. Of course each region is called the “sovereignty” of one of each faction, but when you read the news, the upper ups of these factions are satisfied with arguing about who's gonna succeed whom, and showing up to great state occasions to wave to a captive crowd. Oddly enough, now and again, they manage to assemble great fleets of ships and try to park them on another faction's bordering system. These become disputed systems. But, they never seem to be able to spare a frigate to enforce their sovereignty in the most developed, or (presumably again) civilized areas of their advanced civilizations – what we laughingly call “high sec.”
Now. Here you are a miner. You've spent the better part of a day mining away. You hope to sell the fruits of your efforts, which will surely be taxed by the faction whose space you're in. You're in a ship you probably bought, and paid a tax on when you purchased it. It's rigged with items you also bought, again paying taxes to this “sovereignty.” In fact, all of your efforts are a source of income to this faction. The more people engaged in this enterprise, the more revenue they receive – their income increases. (This, by all civilized peoples in the history of mankind, is defined as “national interest.”) All of a sudden, this guy warps up and steals your ore. He turns red giving you permission to enforce something...which gets pretty vague here...the sovereignty of your can? Yes! Kill him with a mining frig! But, he runs into a station. The station actually lets him in. (If not immediately he can warp around until a timer goes off.) Guess what? The station is owned by the faction whose law was violated (assuming a civilization advanced enough to manipulate the time/space continuum with warp drives has a law against theft) and the thief is afforded shelter. Not only that, the thief can then sell the stolen property in that station (which of course is taxed also), then leave as though nothing has happened. How convenient! A state designed to aid and abet criminals! However, what of the law abiding, industrious citizens hauling-in the ore, making the products and paying all those TAXES??? (You know, the people on whom civilizations are built.) Nada. He's SOL. He gets hosed on this deal. This is the kind of advanced civilization Al Capone, John Dillinger, John Gotti...the list goes on and on...have dreamed of! Now. Why didn't anybody else think of this? The sheer brilliance of it is stunning! |
 Pok Nibin Amarr |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:39:00 - [ 7]
Oh, but it doesn't stop there. There's also missioning. You're in Teonusude missioning for the Republic Fleet - high sec, L4. (Republic Fleet? Doesn't that infer a large group of warships? Hmmm....) There's an adjacent system, Bosena. No Concord there... I guess the contract sort of doesn't reach all the corners of the bread. Anyway. Your agent merrily sends you into Bosena to do a job for the Republic Fleet. If you refuse the job, of course, this representative of the Minmatar Republic gets mad at you for being too picky. Do it enough, and your standing with them goes down. Anyway. To avoid this you accept the mission. You arrive in Bosena. There in the UI it says “Sovereignty: Minmatar Republic” (or some such). But, there to greet you is a gate camp of pirates picking off all travelers with impunity and with no concern about being messed with by any Minmatar flunkies. No. They'll never make it out there with a Republic Fleet, so they can practice piracy against the Minmatar space lane which is obviously a conduit for revenue to the Republic (national interest again), and fear no retribution whatever from anyone. Oh, and if they run out of ammo, they can just drop into the local Republic Fleet station and rearm. Isn't that sweet? Of course, you can take it on yourself, if you have the manning, experience and resources to go out there and enforce the Minmatar's sovereignty yourself; sort of a charity thing for the lame. War dec the pirates. Pay the monthly fee to some imaginary organization. I guess the bribe is to make them look the other way.
Of course, the well-known fact that everybody else understands except CCP is, there's pvp ships and pve ships. There's pvp fitting and pve fitting. Naturally doing a mission someone is going to rig for pvp, right? They'll be more than ready to fend off half a dozen pirates to get to a mission site, complete the mission, and warp right on home with the news for the relieved Republic Fleet. Right? Of course, because if you can't, you have no business trying to run level four missions. We all know that. Geez.
What else...what else...oh yes. Here you are missioning for almost a year to EARN the right to do higher level missions. Some other yuck comes up and the agent “Is not available...” But, for your dedication and persistence, sacrifice and effort, you now are taken very seriously after paying your dues, and this agent will now deal with you, and only people that have (presumably) proven themselves as worthy. You warp to the mission site, there's a gate! You activate a gate, and strangely enough another player ship comes through it with you! Well. What did he do to earn this privilege? How much effort has HE put in on behalf of the faction to merit this honor and distinction? None, of course. He's another highly praised CCP favorite. He's a “ninja looter”. He's there to steal the fruits of your efforts. You know, the privilege you had to earn, he just takes. And guess what, CCP not only allows it, they love it that he's there. It appeals to some sort of juvenile vandal thing they've carried with them since before puberty. It's even in an EVE video.... “Other games have private instances...EVE does not.” They were bragging about it like it was some sort of advance in gaming. It sounds more like, “Other people don't pee in their pants. CCP does.” Brilliant! Got to hand it to you on this one. It must have taken a lot of thought. |
 Atticus Fynch Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:40:00 - [ 8]
furthermore...
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. |
 Makko Gray Pheno-Tech Industries Crimson Wings. |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:40:00 - [ 9]
Is this like Karl Marx for the EVE world. Like long live the proletariat and ****? |
 Iggy Stooge Gallente Federal Navy Academy |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:41:00 - [ 10]
Some semi-educated American talking about horse-thieves, is what I got. |
 Serene Repose Caldari Perkone |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:41:00 - [ 11]
The kicker to that last one is, add it to the one before, the Bosena thing. If only those with the mission can pass through that gate: a. No one can come into the instance while you're fighting off a fully aggroed room and pick you off then coerce money from you to keep your implants from being podded! b. You could enter Bosena, immediately warp to the mission gate, enter the mission, then leave by warping directly to the Teonusude gate, avoiding the gate camp entirely. This doesn't even require programming an actual Republic Fleet to come into Bosena and enforce its own sovereignty...or what we should by now be laughingly calling “sovereignty.” All this could be accomplished without having to rewrite the back story to make sense, or reconstructing the game entirely. However, it would require that a few people with over-exaggerated senses of self-importance to admit they were wrong about something. Fat chance of that!
As far as the petty crime in high sec space? Just make an outlaw an outlaw. You commit a crime, you're wanted. You don't need a bounty, just a designation. Any station taking you in is aiding and abetting a fugitive – a felony. You aren't allowed to escape! You can't pass through any gate holding the sovereignty of the designated faction in that hilarious UI... “Sovereignty...(fill in name).” Get outta here! This makes too much sense. No computer programming, software writing weenie could ever see the logic in this. After all, it uses the other hemisphere of the brain. You know, the one they blow off as useless.
So, now all you criminals out there pretend you're only interested in game mechanics and tell us all how stupid this post is. I'm sure you'll have a lot of profound and nuanced things to say! (Be sure to make the insults somewhat original. We're tired of the same old same old.) |
 Moolti Gallente Gradient Electus Matari |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:42:00 - [ 12]
The Jove are the true sovereigns of the cluster. They demonstrated that, and keep the powers on a roughly equal footing. The powers that be fear admitting to that fact, so they keep the charade up. |
 Xonus Calimar Amarr CaeIum Incognitum
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:42:00 - [ 13]
I'm sure there is a valid point somewhere in that immense wall of text, but it will take me a bit more time to find it.
If the OP doesn't post a TL:DR summary by the time I get home from work, I might make an attempt. Stay tuned. |
 Makko Gray Pheno-Tech Industries Crimson Wings. |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:43:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Iggy Stooge Some semi-educated American talking about horse-thieves, is what I got.
See EVE more like a darker version of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World myself, like the next step and in SPACE!!! |
 Corina's Bodyguard |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:47:00 - [ 15]
Concord is only there to stop Capsuleers. They care nothing for the wars of Empires. And each empire only cares about them and their allies, the rest can die in a hole.
As for null, Concord doesn't care. They can still wtfpwn every capsuleer in null if they tried to take over empire hs. |
 Obsidian Hawk RONA Corporation RONA Directorate |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:47:00 - [ 16]
TOO LONG DID NOT READ!
Holy wall of text batman!
Thanks for the wall i was afraid the mongolians were going to invade.
etc. |
 Moolti Gallente Gradient Electus Matari |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:49:00 - [ 17]
Are people really unable to read 4 four! paragraphs of text?
Really?
While i disagree with the overall point. It was well written, well structured, and not to long by any stretch of the imagination.
Seriously, you think that is too much text? |
 Atticus Fynch Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.20 21:51:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Moolti Are people really unable to read 4 four! paragraphs of text?
Really?
While i disagree with the overall point. It was well written, well structured, and not to long by any stretch of the imagination.
Seriously, you think that is too much text?
The hyperbole was a bit much. Just get to the damn point. |
 I'm not Trollin |
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:21:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Moolti Are people really unable to read 4 four! paragraphs of text?
Really?
While i disagree with the overall point. It was well written, well structured, and not to long by any stretch of the imagination.
Seriously, you think that is too much text?
All the posts in between the text dump made it harder to read. Making a free blog or some other linked version would have been easier on the eyes. I agree though, at least it was well structured; however, this forum isn't the best medium to share ideas in such a way. |
 Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 22:59:00 - [ 20]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 20/06/2011 23:00:57 1) Eve is a fantasy world and as such it gets the ruleset its creators impose. Imagine imposing the police punishing your 3 stories tall dragon for eating a sheep, in another fantasy game. Unlikely.
2) EvE is a mechanical framework dressed as fantasy game, the very software-smelling underlying rules are not smoothed at all so you indeed see simple programmers' shortcuts and logic being implemented without a layer of RL credibility on top of them.
3) The world you live in has its rules, what tells you they are universal and also independent of the time they are applied to? Even in RL, how often do you see important VIPS being treated with the same vigor as the other normal people? Capsuleers are very rich and powerful. Like in RL they have 10 times more lawyers, resources and false witnesses than the other guy. They also trained "political connections" etc. so you are hopeless to get justice. Like in RL in many nations beginning with mine.
4) About the missions and gates: even in RL you have parasites, followers, profiteers. They use and abuse you with no merit of theirs. Likewise in the missions. |
 pindlebot Amarr 4VICTORY |
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:00:00 - [ 21]
I'm bored, I read it. Yes its well written, but essentially complains there are no permanent repercussions for criminal activities: you can just hang out in station until timer is up. OP tried several times to compare it to real life and fell flat. Murdering a human being, shooting their car, or stealing a purse is one hundred billion shmillion percent in another reality altogether than "can flipping" in EvE.
You want life in EvE to explicitly reflect real life? You better start studying for flight school. And remove cans at wrecks, cause in real life a blown up spaceship wouldn't leave behind a can with several intact parts inside. And get rid of the hud-neocom - that won't exist until they finish creating the contact lenses with nano-processors on them. Etc. Now we can remove the timer for criminal events. |
 Dirk Magnum Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic |
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:15:00 - [ 22]
What the hell did I just read?
Anyway, Eve is and always has been the gaming equivalent of taking a 40 kilo dump... in your pants, in public, on a date. A nightmarish experience that you will never be able to put behind you, and yet oddly satisfying. |
 Atticus Fynch Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:23:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum What the hell did I just read?
Anyway, Eve is and always has been the gaming equivalent of taking a 40 kilo dump... in your pants, in public, on a date. A nightmarish experience that you will never be able to put behind you, and yet oddly satisfying.
LOLOLOL!!!!! Dude!!! THAT has to be the funniest thing I've ever read.  ...because it's so true.  |
 Jada Maroo |
Posted - 2011.06.20 23:28:00 - [ 24]
Quote: There's a cute truism in the U.S,: If you shoot someone breaking into your house and the body falls into your yard, drag it into the house. Why? If the body's in the yard, you'll be arrested for murder. If it's in your house you'll be praised for successfully defending your home. Why parse it that finely? Well, if not, who's to stop someone from just shooting someone in their yard, then claiming they were breaking into your house? That would be a neat little loophole useable to get rid of a few annoying neighbors. So, what's stopping someone from shooting an annoying neighbor in the yard, dragging that body into the house, then calling the police claiming they broke into your house? Nothing really, but you better be able to prove it by the preponderance of evidence, or you'll be tried for murder. They will arrest you and hold you till it's sorted out to their satisfaction (“they” being the police acting on behalf of the community.)
There's so much wrong with this, legally. You don't drag a body inside your house - that is disturbing a crime scene. If someone breaks into your house and you shoot them, and they run out and die on your lawn, there's plenty of physical evidence in the house to prove that's where they were. Gun power residue, drops of blood, shell casings, maybe a bullet hole in your wall, a kicked in door. Investigators will have no problem proving they were there. Drag the body inside and they'll know that too, then it just looks like you've got something to hide. And the neighbor analogy doesn't work because it's not probable that you would have a valid reason to shoot your neighbor, and it is reasonable to expect them to be in your area. A robber likely has no reason to be on your street, on your property, or in your house. |
 Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate |
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:09:00 - [ 25]
I am curious, just how would a state propose to enforce rules over individuals who can not die, who can not be imprisoned. I get the point of the essay, but I think the essay is missing this 'fact'. In Eve, Pod Pilots aren't like normal people, as such, the states must deal with them differently.
Using that we can come up with all sorts of fictional ethics and cultural gymnatics to explain just about anything. |
 ElJo123 Accompanied By Unicorns
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:39:00 - [ 26]
Oh my, how I do love those 50.000 word pseudo-philosophical ramblings about how this simulation of Internet Spaceship Pixels with FTL travel and immortal demigods doesn't reflect the american judicial system.
SO IT'S REBUTTAL TIME YIELDING THE FINAL AUTHORITY (and by that i mean wikipedia of course): "There exists perhaps no conception the meaning of which is more controversial than that of sovereignty. It is an indisputable fact that this conception, from the moment when it was introduced into political science until the present day, has never had a meaning which was universally agreed upon." — Lassa Oppenheim |
 Vicker Lahn'se Minmatar STRAG3S
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:53:00 - [ 27]
If you use your analogies, yes EVE is far from having adequate criminal repercussions. Your analogies, however, are quite a bit of a stretch.
Let's take can flipping for example. A jet can is a device that is produced when you jettison things. It's a garbage can for things you throw away. Mining into a jet can is like you leaving your valuables in your garbage can at the curb because you didn't bother to purchase an appropriate storage space. The police aren't going to arrest me if I take a CD player from your trash.
I would say a better analogy to can flipping would be this: I take a CD player from your trash and wave it in front of your face. I taunt you, make fun of you, and point out what a loser you are for leaving your CD player in such a stupid place. You respond by punching me in the face. I punch you back. Now we're just two nut jobs engaging in disorderly conduct. The police might intervene to the extent that they will break up our fight, send us home, etc. After things quiet down and the police go on their way, I can come back and rummage through your garbage again. The story would be different if I broke into your house and stole your CD player from your room, but that's not what happened. |
 Ghoest |
Posted - 2011.06.21 00:56:00 - [ 28]
So you like big paragraphs eh? |
 Tobiaz Spacerats
|
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:16:00 - [ 29]
Edited by: Tobiaz on 21/06/2011 01:22:49
As the sociologist Max Weber puts it: A sovereign state has the monopoly on violence within it's borders.
The problem with that this is a matter of 'right by might'. And there is a big grey area between complete control and a total anarchy. I think that's where EVE's situation is in.
The sovereign states lack the manpower to effectively control all systems they have claimed. Together they have formed CONCORD to help fighting criminals in vital high-sec systems. But they won't allow a supranational organization like CONCORD to grow so strong it starts to threaten their own sovereignty.
Thus CONCORD remains on a level where it's strong enough to counter individual criminals and perhaps a few (NPC) megacorps, but they can't keep them all in check at the same time. That's why, in an elegant application of 'divide and conquer', CONCORD allows individual corporations to fight out their differences with a wardec. And they give wronged individuals the right to take a measure of revenge for small crimes.
I've seen many people say that wardecs are a result of corruption within CONCORD, but I think this explanation makes a more sense.
In a way it's similar to the situation of the Wild West where the Sheriff, appointed by the city's councilmen, allows the locals to lynch a mob of horsethiefs. |
 Benri Konpaku |
Posted - 2011.06.21 02:03:00 - [ 30]
I actually read both OPs, then went "Hmmm, interesting." and then forgot what I was doing here in the first place.  |
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