| Author |
Topic |
Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:28:00 - [ 1]
"The data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features."
For once, I would like to see CCP actually deliver some polished quality rather than (lol not even) half finished expansions. |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:35:00 - [ 2]
Amazing how their data doesn't correspond with general forum opinion.
In short, someone is making **** up. |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:38:00 - [ 3]
 Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Amazing how their data doesn't correspond with general forum opinion.
In short, someone is making **** up.
Have you ever wondered what would happen to CCP's subscriber statistics if those free, one month buddy accounts that players loved to use as suicide ganking alts were treated as real customers?  Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:40:00 - [ 4]
I don't pay to play a polished finished product, I pay to play Eve  |
Alara IonStorm
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:43:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
I don't pay to play a polished finished product, I pay to play Eve
Your not paying enough, buy Aurum. |
Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:21:00 - [ 6]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that quote taken out of context? |
Allyria Kylari |
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:25:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Taedrin
I'm wrong...quote taken out of context
|
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:26:00 - [ 8]
|
Ein Phantom |
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:29:00 - [ 9]
Originally by: Taedrin
I'm wrong
|
Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:37:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Ein Phantom
Originally by: Taedrin
I'm wrong
*sigh* let me explain myself. If I recall correctly, the dev who said that, was talking about the APOCRYPHA expansion - one of the expansions that players have loved by far. HOWEVER, the code for said expansion was a terrible mess - being one of the most costly in terms of developer time to clean up. Thus the "polished quality" which the developer is talking about is coding standards - not gameplay mechanics. So there you have it - one of the most beloved expansions released by CCP was also the least polished. Thus my question about the quote being taken out of context. The developer is talking about unpolished code, not unpolished gameplay mechanics. People have been taking this quote out of context for over a year now, however, perpetuating the idea that CCP does not test their gameplay mechanics at all, and that CCP does not want to make the gameplay better. |
Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:54:00 - [ 11]
But it's true. |
Ein Phantom |
Posted - 2011.06.18 02:16:00 - [ 12]
|
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 02:17:00 - [ 13]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 18/06/2011 03:06:12 Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Ein Phantom
Originally by: Taedrin
I'm wrong
*sigh* let me explain myself.
If I recall correctly, the dev who said that, was talking about the APOCRYPHA expansion - one of the expansions that players have loved by far.
HOWEVER, the code for said expansion was a terrible mess - being one of the most costly in terms of developer time to clean up. Thus the "polished quality" which the developer is talking about is coding standards - not gameplay mechanics.
*snap*
To help you to remember correctly, here is a link for you: http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf14:30-15:30 CCP: Commitment to Excellence, page 5, quote of the relevant passage: Quote:
..
Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features. This led to a discussion on the balance of customer acquisition through new features versus customer retention through quality and polish. The CSM also stressed the importance of goodwill and overall player satisfaction, which is very hard to measure in statistics until players decide to quit. The CSM is concerned that players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved.
..
From the perspective of the CSM this is about polish of features, read: fully implemented and sound working instead of more features not sound working. On the matter of 'expectation management': Doesn't this involve some sort of COMMUNICATION between CCP and it's customers about WHAT IS TO HAPPEN AND WHY IT'S HAPPENING? Can you see this for the simmering CQ rage? There are valid questions and concerns from customers here.. for weeks now all over the forums. Several Devs have seen them. But can you make out ANY expectation managment whatsoever? Anything besides the blog about the hardware issues and the temporary fix, that is disabling the CQ altogether? Nothing about: - our expectations in regards to the other 3 racial CQs
- our expectations in regards to the usability of the CQ vs the old hangar view
- our expectations in regards to immersion and lore
edit: Managing expectations doesn't work by ignoring them.. or to put it more neutral: causing the appearance your customers concerns and expectations are being ignored. So stating "Did read your topic, won't comment <because of xyz>"(*) would even work.  *) <because of xyz> is optional naturally |
panterus29
Gallente
Blame The Bunny
The Dark Nation |
Posted - 2011.06.18 02:24:00 - [ 14]
|
Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:01:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 18/06/2011 02:26:08
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Ein Phantom
Originally by: Taedrin
I'm wrong
*sigh* let me explain myself.
If I recall correctly, the dev who said that, was talking about the APOCRYPHA expansion - one of the expansions that players have loved by far.
HOWEVER, the code for said expansion was a terrible mess - being one of the most costly in terms of developer time to clean up. Thus the "polished quality" which the developer is talking about is coding standards - not gameplay mechanics.
*snap*
To help you to remember correctly, here is a link for you:
http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf
14:30-15:30 CCP: Commitment to Excellence, page 5, quote of the relevant passage:
Quote:
..
Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.
It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features. This led to a discussion on the balance of customer acquisition through new features versus customer retention through quality and polish. The CSM also stressed the importance of goodwill and overall player satisfaction, which is very hard to measure in statistics until players decide to quit. The CSM is concerned that players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved.
..
From the perspective of the CSM this is about polish of features, read: fully implemented and sound working instead of more features not sound working.
On the matter of 'expectation management':
Doesn't this involve some sort of COMMUNICATION between CCP and it's customers about WHAT IS TO HAPPEN AND WHY IT'S HAPPENING?
Can you see this for the simmering CQ rage?
There are valid questions and concerns from customers here.. for weeks now all over the forums. Several Devs have seen them. But can you make out ANY expectation managment whatsoever? Anything besides the blog about the hardware issues and the temporary fix, that is disabling the CQ altogether?
Nothing about:
- our expectations in regards to the other 3 racial CQs
- our expectations in regards to the usability of the CQ vs the old hangar view
- our expectations in regards to immersion and lore
That is the reality.
Many thanks, I have been trying to find the original quote so that I wouldn't have to risk making a fool of myself. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find it (believe it or not, all of the google searching I did only showed me posts without any links to the source), so I ended up taking the risk anyways. I guess that the dev who told the above story was doing some classic backpedaling. I guess I lose 100 internet points  |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:25:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Taedrin
*snip*
Many thanks, I have been trying to find the original quote so that I wouldn't have to risk making a fool of myself. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find it (believe it or not, all of the google searching I did only showed me posts without any links to the source), so I ended up taking the risk anyways. I guess that the dev who told the above story was doing some classic backpedaling.
I guess I lose 100 internet points
No problem.. we're humans. We forgive each other.. well, sometimes  What is funny about this? If CCP where to deploy and use expectation managment we wouldn't have thread-noughts full of rage. Just look at the Dust-for-consoles-only-rages. CCP said this from the start. Expectation for sane customer: no PC. That's a clear message. They thus managed expectations. What happened? There where some people who raged about it and had their little whines, but there where also enough people who pointed out that CCP said this all along. No thread-nought. Then look at Dust-for-PS3-only. Hehe.. yeah. CCP got cought on this one, as they said 'we try multiplatform' and even showed the stuff with xbox controllers. Expectation: XBOX will/might/should work. That was a blurry message. They didn't really manage expectations there. What happened? Thread-noughts filled with rage. Conclusion: Everytime there is a thread-nought CCP failed in managing expectations. Imho, most of the time by blurry communication or no communication at all. As this is part of their aim for excellence, they fail excellence. PS: That Dev's read the test-server forums and leave no feedback/comments is another failure in managing expectations - from a customer/voluntary-tester perspective it resembles being ignored and thus being left alone with your expectations. |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:29:00 - [ 17]
CCP needs to start listening to the forums, basically. |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:40:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 18/06/2011 03:50:23 Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
CCP needs to start listening to the forums, basically.
Na.. this is the wrong attitude. Customer might be king, but CCP is the one running the show and as they can't and won't tell us all they know and considered they shouldn't just listen to us. They should just manage expectations by communicating what they have in mind. Not more, not less. Another prime example would be special fx, the cyno effect or warp trails. Does CCP manage expectations on this one? Is there somewhere on these boards or website any expectation managment regarding this issue? All we know is (we'll what I can remember): - CCP hired a dude doing only special fx
- CCP likes warp trails too
- old warp trails were to demanding
- old warp trails lacked quality
- old cyno effect doesn't work in new engine
- current cyno effect was a compromise
- dude might be working on cyno-effect/warp-trails
- *unconfirmed: warp trails might come winter or next summer, cant find the FF2011 video I believe I've seen this mentioned*
Expectation: as there is no information/update since months CCP ignores the issue In this light the 'Dev's answer every question' is a practical approach on managing customer expectations. But it fails to deliver. - it's a once in a lifetime event (average account is subscribed 7 months, this is done on a 2 year cycle)
- silly questions that have nothing to do with customer expectations cheapen the rare event
- answers by dev's who are not working in the department/field the question addresses are useless
- format is a PITA to refer to
- time between asking questions and giving answers is too long
|
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing |
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:41:00 - [ 19]
Sadly, players usually do not need to take developer quotes out of context to make CCP look bad. That particular statement meant precisely this: as far as CCP is concerned, adding lots of new broken or half-implemented features sells better than delivering a few high-quality features.
For reference, Apocrypha was and is considered one of the best expansions in the past two years precisely because it was highly polished on the user-end, introducing new game mechanics, shiny new ships, and several thousand new solar systems to play in. It did not introduce game-breaking lag (Dominion) that was not acknowledged as a problem by CCP for several months, nor involved a poorly implemented and badly designed minigame (Tyrranis).
I think that the new character creator is perhaps the best out there, though it is sorely lacking in accessories and clothing. If CCP does not drop the ball, the final version of Incarna will be awesome. Unfortunately, CCP has a well-established history of promising to iterate on half-finished features only to abandon them a few weeks after release and go chasing after some new shiny concept that they only are able to implement when it is yesterday's news. We're already seeing worrying signs that CCP's next project will be items for a microtransaction (Aurum) store; hopefully they will keep the promise they made last year and dedicate more than token resources to the actual game that we all love and pay to play in one way or another. Team BFF and Team Gridlock have done awesome work; it's painful to think of how much better EVE could be had CCP dedicated even a handful of additional teams to improving and fixing the existing game. |
Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:44:00 - [ 20]
Thats extemely naive of you Tres Farmer. We all know by now that whatever CCP promises has nothing to do with what they eventually deliver, if they even deliver at all.
They really DO need to listen to the player-base because it is becoming even more apparent over time that less and less of their staff actually login and understand how this game is actually played. |
Rykuss
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:57:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
They should just manage expectations by communicating what they have in mind. Not more, not less.
Yes, this would do wonders. |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:05:00 - [ 22]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 18/06/2011 04:14:57 Originally by: Lady Spank
Thats extemely naive of you Tres Farmer. We all know by now that whatever CCP promises has nothing to do with what they eventually deliver, if they even deliver at all.
That is because they don't manage YOUR expectations. CCP goes onto a stage and says stuff about features they want to see in Incarna. They make a bullet point list and show this to you. The make a video and show this to you. You expect this now to happen. Then they turn around, make Incarna, release it and that's it. They don't communicate with you in between the promising and the delivery. They don't manage your expectations. Originally by: Lady Spank
They really DO need to listen to the player-base because it is becoming even more apparent over time that less and less of their staff actually login and understand how this game is actually played.
You can't vouch for that as you don't have proof. You only have your personal view on this that your playstyle doesn't work as you expect it to work. Again, that's your expectation colliding with CCPs reality. If CCP were to explain and communicate what they do and why they do this, then your expectations wouldn't deviate so far from CCPs reality. This doesn't mean CCP shouldn't react on customers ideas/wishes/desires/complains. I don't say that. But if CCP can't even master expectation management, how should they master incorporating customer ideas/wishes/complains, that are based on hyped/wrong/warped expectations? edit: Personal expectation examples for Incarna: I expected to appear in the CQ when docked where I logged off (sitting on couch for example). I expected the couch to have a bigger context-reaction-menu-area.. ie. the whole couch, not just 10% of it's area. I expected that my avatar would be able to sit down on the couch when the context menu appears and gives [Sit] as option. I expected the capsule to be in a private room. I expected double-clicking on the ship in the hangar would work as before. I expected drag+drop of ships from the ship-hangar-window into the hangar would make this ship active. I expected upon docking I would be facing my ship or there to be an option to make this the default. I expected to be able to stay in my ship when docking, as the disembarking from the pod is something a pdopilot wouldn't want to do for simple touch-and-go's. I expected ... etc. pp. See? |
GateScout |
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:08:00 - [ 23]
...and yet you are all still here. You're proving them right. |
Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:16:00 - [ 24]
Edited by: Lady Spank on 18/06/2011 04:17:14
This is NOT about my personal expectations although if it somehow makes you feel better to believe so then you may. Considering how inept at interpreting sentiment you are I wouldn't expect much less of you. There are plenty of gripes, if I don't make a huge list of them for your benefit then too bad.
Proof shmoof. If you don't know this for yourself then you obviously haven't been playing very long. CCP are renowned for lying through their teeth and failing to deliver on promises. They are also very good at half assedly implementing features with a "we will fix this later / continue to develop this" promise...
Factional Warfare and COSMOS both dumped and forgotten. (two elements I dont give a crap about personally)
Assigning one guy to do all graphics work on in-space effects. (actually care)
Not even being able to deliver 4 different rooms for Incarna on release despite the amount of years they have worked on it. (dont care personally but its pathetic)
I don't see a single scrap of this :excellence: they promised us.
|
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing |
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:23:00 - [ 25]
Originally by: GateScout
...and yet you are all still here. You're proving them right.
I'm an old-time Ragnarok Online player. It would take quite a bit of dedicated effort for CCP to surpass Gravity Corp's ability to shoot itself repeatedly in the foot by releasing not merely half-finished and broken content but an entire pay to play game half of whose announced release features did not work at all months after launch. Then again, I stay for the community; when that's gone, for whatever reason, I will find some other game to play. It's just frustrating to see what awesome things the folk of CCP are capable of, and then a few days later to see some badly thought out announcement about a "feature" no-one expected that either would have rather bad results, or that is an anathema to everything EVE is about. |
CanIHave YourStuff
Minmatar
In Praise Of Shadows |
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:36:00 - [ 26]
Maybe if they had delivered monocles this wouldn't be an issue that people are so upset about but to imply something as cool as a monocle, then laugh at us in the very next sentence? That's just typical and bound to get people angry. |
Khira Kitamatsu |
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:55:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Lady Spank
"The data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features."
For once, I would like to see CCP actually deliver some polished quality rather than (lol not even) half finished expansions.
My kids whine less than you. That seems to be all you do on these boards. |
Khira Kitamatsu |
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:57:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Lady Spank
Edited by: Lady Spank on 18/06/2011 04:17:14
This is NOT about my personal expectations although if it somehow makes you feel better to believe so then you may. Considering how inept at interpreting sentiment you are I wouldn't expect much less of you. There are plenty of gripes, if I don't make a huge list of them for your benefit then too bad.
Proof shmoof. If you don't know this for yourself then you obviously haven't been playing very long. CCP are renowned for lying through their teeth and failing to deliver on promises. They are also very good at half assedly implementing features with a "we will fix this later / continue to develop this" promise...
Factional Warfare and COSMOS both dumped and forgotten. (two elements I dont give a crap about personally)
Assigning one guy to do all graphics work on in-space effects. (actually care)
Not even being able to deliver 4 different rooms for Incarna on release despite the amount of years they have worked on it. (dont care personally but its pathetic)
I don't see a single scrap of this :excellence: they promised us.
Then do us all a favor and quit. |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:58:00 - [ 29]
|
Kestrix |
Posted - 2011.06.18 05:02:00 - [ 30]
|
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