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Shonion
FREE GATES
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:38:00 - [931]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





Would you fire every 'tards who guessed this idea? Thank you.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:38:00 - [932]
 

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Here are our demands:
ISK costs - no charge
Volunatary donations - no charge
Advertising - no charge
Sold product - reasonable fee - would recommend this be more like a royalty than a single fee as "one size" does not "fit all" here. But here you can charge.

If you really need to identify people who are adding value to your game for free, then charge a fee sufficiently low to be trivial. ($1/yr, or <$10 one off) to those people. I also doubt that this payment will really identify anyone who doesn't want to be identified.

At the end of your decision, we should be allowed to do everything we currently can do for the same price we are currently doing it. Plus more with limitations as necessary. We do not appreciate you removing features from our game, or our community.

Lothros Andastar
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:39:00 - [933]
 

Originally by: Ga'len
CCP,

Next time, why don't you start a dev blog like this with the following lanugage at the very beginning:

THIS IS NOT CURRENT POLICY, THIS IS A DRAFT! PLESSE COMMENT AS WE WISH TO COLLABORATIVELY DEVELOP THIS POLICY.

That statement alone would have resulted in 25 less pages on this thread and would have gotten you more useful and less painful comments.


No, it would have been the same, because this is 25+ pages of people telling CCP this Policy is utter **** no matter what form it takes.

Ps:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:43:00 - [934]
 

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Vurshachka
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:51:00 - [935]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats




Terrorina
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:58:00 - [936]
 

Wow CCP.. really?

At least take the playerbase out to to dinner first, we like to be wined and dined before we get ****ed.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:59:00 - [937]
 

At least they didn't do what Blizzard did and tell people they can't charge or take donations for anything related to WoW anymore. You should have seen the outrage on the WoW forums when they announced that.

Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:59:00 - [938]
 

Originally by: Shandir

Here are our demands:
ISK costs - no charge
Volunatary donations - no charge
Advertising - no charge
Sold product - reasonable fee - would recommend this be more like a royalty than a single fee as "one size" does not "fit all" here. But here you can charge.


I pretty much said the same thing a few pages back -- if you are going to charge developers real money at least let them charge real money for their services. Voluntary donations and advertising should be excluded from the pay licence. Further, the pay licence should grant the developer something back from CCP (i.e. documentation, support, SLAs, etc).

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Andrea Exerlauka
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:01:00 - [939]
 

Are you out of your mind, CCP?

You really need to fire the morons who are coming up with all these great "marketable" ideas before they run your game to the ground.

CCP Zulu

Posted - 2011.06.16 15:03:00 - [940]
 

Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online

Nooto
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:08:00 - [941]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


glad that you got the point Very Happy

Triple Entendre
Atrocity.
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:10:00 - [942]
 

Originally by: Shandir

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



Here are our demands:
ISK costs - no charge
Volunatary donations - no charge
Advertising - no charge
Sold product - reasonable fee - would recommend this be more like a royalty than a single fee as "one size" does not "fit all" here. But here you can charge.

If you really need to identify people who are adding value to your game for free, then charge a fee sufficiently low to be trivial. ($1/yr, or <$10 one off) to those people. I also doubt that this payment will really identify anyone who doesn't want to be identified.

At the end of your decision, we should be allowed to do everything we currently can do for the same price we are currently doing it. Plus more with limitations as necessary. We do not appreciate you removing features from our game, or our community.


At risk of being cynical, that sounds far too reasonable to be considered.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:12:00 - [943]
 

Thanks CCP Zulu for the clear communication. Looking forward to seeing the revisions.

SystemAdministrator
Amarr
Invision Hosting
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:12:00 - [944]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


And sanity wins again (for now). Only took 32 pages of us saying this was a bad idea. Zulu thanks for listening. You may wanna run this sort of stuff past the CSM in the future before int ends up in a devblog Smile

Davvol
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:15:00 - [945]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.


Hang on, this looks suspiciously like common sense! I can only assume someone has managed to hack Zulu's account, as this is clearly a deviation from the behavior we are expecting :D

Talaan Stardrifter
Universal Exports
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:20:00 - [946]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
... voice of reason ...

I'm happy to see a revised proposal that takes the feedback given into account.

Personally, I'm pro-licensing, I just don't like the current all-or-nothing approach.
I envisage the API shifting to a system similar to Open-Auth, where the developer authents themselves in addition to the client key and vcode.

We do also need clarification on acceptable real money transactions.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:21:00 - [947]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


CCP Zulu = best Zulu


<3

realdognose
Caldari
Biotronics Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:25:00 - [948]
 

I'm the developer of the Windows Phone Application "EVEolution".

Now i read, that "selling services for ISK" possible will require the commercial license.

Well, i'm selling the app for 150M, because Microsoft already charges me for a "Marketplace Account"
with $99. (The app was intended to be free, but because of that charge, i decided to take ISK, to
lower the costs, by buying some PLEX).

Now CCP charges me with another $99 ?

So, i now should pay $198 / year for a app that was planned to be freeware?

Well, if this will happpen, i'll unfortunately will stop the project (and others as well).

Hope, that you really will exclude ISK payments and donations from that rule.

best regards,
realdognose

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:37:00 - [949]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


Oh thank heavens the carebear tears can subside now and we can all focus on the one and only critical point to the entire devblog - commercial access to EVE PI.

Oh, wait... in two weeks?!? I predict this thread will have grown to three times its size before then Zulu. Might want to spare a few cycles of someone's time to this so it can be managed. Just a thought.


Pneumon Blaster
Quondam Souls of the Universe corporation
THE R0NIN
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:38:00 - [950]
 

Originally by: Arrs Grazznic
Originally by: Shandir

Here are our demands:
ISK costs - no charge
Volunatary donations - no charge
Advertising - no charge
Sold product - reasonable fee - would recommend this be more like a royalty than a single fee as "one size" does not "fit all" here. But here you can charge.


I pretty much said the same thing a few pages back -- if you are going to charge developers real money at least let them charge real money for their services. Voluntary donations and advertising should be excluded from the pay licence. Further, the pay licence should grant the developer something back from CCP (i.e. documentation, support, SLAs, etc).

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats





We are already Paying for the privilege of doing CCPs job - if people are joining mass testing - that's ONE BIG LOL for me. Never seen company using their customers as testers who paids for testing. LOL

Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:40:00 - [951]
 

Edited by: Mitchello on 16/06/2011 15:41:36
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


Thank you, for not just taking the time, but also the message itself. Much appreciated.

I do think however that it is less a case of misunderstanding (an sich) than it is a case of communication - regardless of internal or external parts of that. If the devblog had been meant as a way to get feedback, that really should have been made clear in its format and message. It would have prevented a substantial loss of belief / trust.

It is perhaps an idea to put together a questionairre in the relevant forum section where third party developers hang out here on EVE Forums, or get CSM to do that for CCP, and perhaps run this as part of a next user survey.

Cheers!

Euphonus
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:41:00 - [952]
 

Do it CCP. I dare you.

darmwand
Blood Money Dark Angels
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:42:00 - [953]
 

Since our "feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to" you, this:

Originally by: Kronus Heilgar

You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats



woddel
Gallente
Canis Industries Ltd
Avaricious Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:42:00 - [954]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


hello again

which part of

Quote:

Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.

Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.

Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.



leaves room for misunderstanding? i can also not find any confusing wording in these sentences...

Arakkis Melanogaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:44:00 - [955]
 

Do you guys understand that these freelance developers are making third party programs that make your terrible game playable, and are giving them out free of charge? You are literally charging your customers to develop features that should have already been included in game. In fact, you should be paying the people that make your content for you. Make checks payable to 'Solo Drakban'.

Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:46:00 - [956]
 

Thanks CCP/Zulu

The thing is though, you dropped another seed/dumped another bucket of foamy frothy soap on the already slippery slope (yes, we've been using this one a lot)..


Good intentions, the road to hell and all, there is absolutely no sane, or even remotely valid reason this blog should have been posted without first running it past CSM or some actual 3pd's. Add to that the, let's call it enthusiastic, wording of the blog itself and instant threadnought out of nowhere (as if summoned by the great and powerful Aurum).

You guys aren't new at this, but lately (most importantly this year) you seem to be acting like a bunch of high school kids, incredibly arrogant, constantly saying the wrong things, not fact checking anything. And all so hastily.. it's insane, you have a community of people here that have frankly put up with a lot, some of us from the start and somehow some of you feel everything needs to be done now.

I'm no expert, obviously I can see the legal and financial merit in this, but there's being right and there's being a thorax about it.

About the not being an expert thing: why ask us common folk about anything, before asking people that might actually have something good to say first? I am not a 3rd party dev for eve, 95% of the people '+1'-ing this thread don't really have a clue on how to improve this. But, there is the 3rd party devs themselves, it's not like they are hard to get a hold of, and, they kind of all feel this is a bad 'first draft'. And then there is the CSM, sure they might not actually know themselves, but they will actually (I hope) contact people who do.


This is the second threadnought I just had to post in this week, wtf CCP? And just now I see the 'new new forums up for testing' again, oh boy, I'm oiling my keyboard in advance. You don't have time to think about this, something that's ****ing off not just a large section of your community (of paying customers) but a very important part of your community at that (those people that keep us happy when you don't), but you have time for .. really?

It's been said before (and in this thread) and I'll say it again: Take a step back, plan some meetings and discuss just what you see happening here. Slap some people around for being such utter PR nightmares to the community as a whole and make a plan and have people with a clue look at that plan before you show us the plan.


Honestly you guys seem to be intent on having us just give up.

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:48:00 - [957]
 

Originally by: woddel
which part of

Quote:

Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.

Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.

Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.



leaves room for misunderstanding? i can also not find any confusing wording in these sentences...

And that's exactly why it will be re-worded so they won't get ****storm next time they try it Rolling Eyes

Clambumper June
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:48:00 - [958]
 

I did read the full 32 pages, but in a word this is completely F'd. Let me see, RL people pay a subscription fee to play EVE. They love the game so much they create apps to make the game both more fun internally and externally. Further locking your subscribers to their addiction. Now you want to charge people the equivalent of almost 7 months of subscription fees so they can publish their apps.

I realize Iceland economy sucks and you are the biggest thing since Leif Erikson put foot on that island, but give me and the rest a break. There has to be a reason you are starting after 8 years to charge for 3rd Party Developments. Either you have become as greedy as WOW or perhaps you are reduce your player base with people reducing accounts and/or rage quitting due to insult.

I honestly think it is the first of the two options above. CCP has determined that they can now make profit off of other peoples work. Bad idea, not good for business. GL

Swren1
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:50:00 - [959]
 

Edited by: Swren1 on 16/06/2011 15:50:28
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Hello all.

At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Im impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.

There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.

It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).

Its obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.

Unfortunately that will take some time and were kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.

So what well do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.

As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


Hey maybe you can do the same for Incarna and have a patch thats related to internet spaceships???

Majuan Shuo
Gallente
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:50:00 - [960]
 

Originally by: Terrorina
Wow CCP.. really?

At least take the playerbase out to to dinner first, we like to be wined and dined before we get ****ed.


thats going in my bio


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