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CCP Tallest

Posted - 2011.06.10 12:52:00 - [1]
 

Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:

Lostistics
The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.

Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s


Dramiel
It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.

Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg
Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s
Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm

Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s
Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s
Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s
Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)

Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.

Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Posted - 2011.06.10 13:11:00 - [2]
 

Good Start.

This Dramiel balance seems needed and not exaggerated.

Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?

With maxed skills do you think that ships logistics dedicated, are not slightly fragile and too much cap consuming?


DarkAegix
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.10 13:28:00 - [3]
 

Both are excellent starts. I'm looking forward to balancing changes Very Happy
A change to the Dramiel is much needed, and the one you suggested can only be good.
May I suggest a constant stream of very, very small fixes? A fix to the Dramiel isn't game changing, overly complex (AFAIK) or require a redesign of a whole line of ships.

Could your Dramiel fix be implemented within a week? Or are there hoops you need to jump through? I'm just curious as to why things this little can't be implemented relatively quickly.

As for the logistics change... It's a small change indeed. Will it even make a difference? It's definitely necessary, and I guess collectively it will save hundreds of hours in the long run Wink


Finally, are hybrids acknowledged as being weak? They make the Gallente lineup and Caldari hybrid platforms terrible.

Sojenus
Posted - 2011.06.10 13:32:00 - [4]
 

Perhaps an improvement to tracking links could increase the viability of the Oneiros, making it more into an offensive supporter as compared to the better defensive support of the Guardian. Scimitars might need looking at as well if that was the case, so they could fit tracking links without losing out too badly on their shield tank.

MrCaptAwsm
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.10 13:33:00 - [5]
 

Dramiels are fine as they are.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.10 13:35:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?


You mean its Scimitar counter-part.

A Scimitar can be cap stable with a good fleet fit, but you need several core skills at V.

As far as I know, it's almost impossible to get an Oneiros to be cap stable without incoming energy transfers, which is really only supposed to happen to the Guardian and Basilisk, as they can cap chain with two of their high slots.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Posted - 2011.06.10 13:41:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?


You mean its Scimitar counter-part.

A Scimitar can be cap stable with a good fleet fit, but you need several core skills at V.

As far as I know, it's almost impossible to get an Oneiros to be cap stable without incoming energy transfers, which is really only supposed to happen to the Guardian and Basilisk, as they can cap chain with two of their high slots.


Was referring to the "armor" factor and that today the Guardian is the only viable choice, but yes has far has my small knowledge in this matter goes about the pathetic capacitors of all Gallente ships the Oneiros looks more like the Scimi.

Nyarlothotep
The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency
Posted - 2011.06.10 13:43:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Logistics: in addition of Warp speed revisit, some bonus or base stats rework so that the Oneiros becomes on pair with his Amarrian counterpart?

With maxed skills do you think that ships logistics dedicated, are not slightly fragile and too much cap consuming?


Besides the warp speed (which I never really noticed tbh), I think the Oneiros and Scimitar Tracking Link efficiency should be bumped up to 15%. I wish Defenders worked and the Oneiros had some launcher spots. And add another utility high slot...

I don't believe cap and fragility are an issue. I think the logistics ships are pretty balanced in combat. Spider tank solves the fragility issue. Cap boosters, fitting less reps, or not just keeping them running constantly solves most cap issues without making the ship too good.

Logistics ships are my favorite ship to fly. Nearly maxed out all skills that effect my Oneiros and Basilisk.

Blackhorizon
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.10 14:04:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.

Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.

I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.10 14:07:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Lin-Young Borovskova
This Dramiel balance seems needed and not exaggerated...

Would have used "boringly reasonable" but I reckon yours does the trick just as well.

Suppose that means that CCP are not in the tears business after all .. always sad when a God takes no pleasure from the little things Sad

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.06.10 14:16:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 10/06/2011 14:56:21
I could offer quite a bit of analysis and outlook on Super Capitals, but I'm not sure how much of such a thesis would actually be read, so here's a bullet points list of what I think needs to happen with supercaps, primarily Super Carriers.

  • The armor tanking super capitals need to have their EHP reduced. The shield tanking Supercarriers have comparatively reasonable levels of HP/EHP.
  • Trimarks, and other percentile increase based HP modules/rigs, should have a stacking nerf applied to them. As it is, there's no incentive not to slap on three trimarks, a HG slave set and a Regenerative Membrane onto an Aeon. Adding a stacking penalty would be a beneficial stealth boost to active tanking in general.
  • The often discussed Cyno Spool Timer, which would add a charge up time to the capital jump drive, must be implemented. Taking away their rapid deployment capacity will end the era of super capital hot drops. The sooner this happens, the better, IMO.
  • Fighter Bombers should have their damage output reduced. As they are, they only have their insane levels of DPS to combat the insane levels of HP found on other super capitals.
  • Energy Neutralizers could have increased effectiveness against super capital ships.

That's all from me, for now. Razz
EDIT Number One

Add a tracking stat to the Doomsday Device to stop it from being the one-size-kills-all weapon that it is; adding tracking would guide the combat relevancy of the Doomsday Device back towards taking out capital ships, rather than existential threats. A Titan fleet shouldn't be able to wipe out the few dangerous small ships that actually threaten capital forces without the aid of a support fleet - unless the hostile pilot is stupid enough to be slow moving or stationary, of course. Razz

Tsubutai
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.06.10 14:31:00 - [12]
 

The dram speed nerf is about right, but its bonuses need re-examining as well - the combination of falloff + tracking + high DPS + relative capacitor-independence leaves very little in the way of exploitable weaknesses for its class, which stands in contrast to almost every other ship in the game. Since it will remain the fastest frigate, a speed reduction alone won't really change its position relative to other frigates (i.e. it's likely to lose to a well-flown daredevil but should comfortably beat everything else). Because it will retain very strong range/transversal dictation, one or the other of the falloff/tracking bonuses has to go as well if you want to bring it back in line; preferably the falloff bonus, IMO.

I don't really see any major issues with its current scan resolution.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.10 14:36:00 - [13]
 

Your dramiel change solves some of the issues with the dramiel, but it will still be too good compared to the other pirate frigates and AF's.

Currently, that single ship can fulfill the role of almost all the current T1, T2 and faction frigs out there. Killing a dramiel isn't that hard but too often it requires fitting specifically against it to be able to kill it.

Right now, with this fit, all level 5's and NO IMPLANTS the dramiel can do/has:
- 5k/s not overloaded
- 2.3 sec align time
- Dual prop (and thus ability to disengage easily)
- 190dps with selectable damage type
- 6.7k ehp
- 8.3k falloff with close range ammo
- 3 drones
- Neut (so able to easily break an ishkur's tank)
- 42m signature radius


I personally don't mind the dramiel being so fast and so agile, what bothers me is that it can do all the things on that list at the same time. In my opinion, it needs a slight powergrid nerf on top of the small speed, align time and scan ref nerfs. That way, one cannot choose all the options on that list and is forced to leave some of them because they can't all fit. None of those nerfs are crippling, but together they should bring it back in line with the other pirate frigates.

That single ship singlehandedly turned frigate pvp into dramiel pvp. Most of the frigates encountered in 0.0 are dramiels and other frigates are unable to defeat a well piloted and well fit dramiel (thankfully good dramiel pilots are a minority, but the ship itself is still way too versatile). The dramiel can just overload its afterburner and leave in the rare cases where it can't win. In lowsec, it made the good old and noob friendly T1 frigate solo pvp almost obsolete.

I understand that some people don't want it to be nerfed because it's actually a very good tackler and useful in 0.0 50 man fleets. Boosting interceptor speed and/or nerfing the dramiel's damage output and versatility is the way to go, in my opinion.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.06.10 14:37:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 10/06/2011 14:45:03
A big problem people have with the Dramiel is the ease with which it can disengage from most anything it chooses to skirmish if it turns out to be more than it can chew. How much more quickly can a Dramiel be crippled, and how wiggle room in module activation time does it lose, in having its base capacitor knocked down from 365 to 305 or 310?

Its worth noting that a Rifter only has 250 base capacitor.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.10 14:39:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Blackhorizon
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.
No, the Angels need nerfing, and frigs need fixing, but you can't creep their power up without making T1 destroyers and cruisers even worse relatively. Angels nerf, hybrids buff, BCs nerf/BSs buff. Restore the classes and make T1 decent no matter what your total SP & isk gives you options-wise.

Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.10 15:22:00 - [16]
 

Actually I'm not too sure about the warp speed bonus to logistics. Say that a fleet warps to a pos tower with battleships and logistics? Wouldn't you want the logistic team to come out of warp at the same time as the battleships they're going to be repairing? If the logistics team warps faster than the battleships doesn't that make them an easier target?

Natalia Kovac
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.06.10 15:25:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 10/06/2011 15:25:58
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Lostistics
The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.

Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s


Oh, only took you like 3 years since players first asked for this, ok.

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Dramiel
It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.

Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg
Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s
Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm

Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s
Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s
Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s
Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)


CCP nerfin' mah nanoz (again). Not really sure what the point of a Dramiel that isn't super-zippy is, but whatevs.

Originally by: Blackhorizon

Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.

Rather than nerfing the Dramiel, you should look to bring other frigates on par with the Dramiel, or better. This includes non-faction frigates like condors and executioners that right now are more or less just glorified shuttles.

I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.


Yeah, I agree with this too. Frigs pretty much aren't worth flying unless they're T2 or faction (usually pirate faction, though people fly the navy faction for lulz/cheapness). Would be good to make the T1 frig lineup actually compete on any level.

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Your dramiel change solves some of the issues with the dramiel, but it will still be too good compared to the other pirate frigates and AF's.

Currently, that single ship can fulfill the role of almost all the current T1, T2 and faction frigs out there. Killing a dramiel isn't that hard but too often it requires fitting specifically against it to be able to kill it.

Right now, with this fit, all level 5's and NO IMPLANTS the dramiel can do/has:
- 5k/s not overloaded
- 2.3 sec align time
- Dual prop (and thus ability to disengage easily)
- 190dps with selectable damage type
- 6.7k ehp
- 8.3k falloff with close range ammo
- 3 drones
- Neut (so able to easily break an ishkur's tank)
- 42m signature radius


I personally don't mind the dramiel being so fast and so agile, what bothers me is that it can do all the things on that list at the same time. In my opinion, it needs a slight powergrid nerf on top of the small speed, align time and scan ref nerfs. That way, one cannot choose all the options on that list and is forced to leave some of them because they can't all fit. None of those nerfs are crippling, but together they should bring it back in line with the other pirate frigates.

That single ship singlehandedly turned frigate pvp into dramiel pvp. Most of the frigates encountered in 0.0 are dramiels and other frigates are unable to defeat a well piloted and well fit dramiel (thankfully good dramiel pilots are a minority, but the ship itself is still way too versatile). The dramiel can just overload its afterburner and leave in the rare cases where it can't win. In lowsec, it made the good old and noob friendly T1 frigate solo pvp almost obsolete.

I understand that some people don't want it to be nerfed because it's actually a very good tackler and useful in 0.0 50 man fleets. Boosting interceptor speed and/or nerfing the dramiel's damage output and versatility is the way to go, in my opinion.


Don't bring your copypasta in here.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.10 15:26:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Acac Sunflyier
Actually I'm not too sure about the warp speed bonus to logistics. Say that a fleet warps to a pos tower with battleships and logistics? Wouldn't you want the logistic team to come out of warp at the same time as the battleships they're going to be repairing? If the logistics team warps faster than the battleships doesn't that make them an easier target?


When doing a fleet warp, the entire fleet warps at the same speed as the slowest ship.

In a HAC/Recon/Logi fleet, the logis will slow down the entire fleet to 3AU/s.

CirJohn
Posted - 2011.06.10 15:28:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: CirJohn on 10/06/2011 15:42:59
Edited by: CirJohn on 10/06/2011 15:41:43
Originally by: Blackhorizon
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 10/06/2011 14:07:16
Dear CCP Tallest, you are approaching this the wrong way. Frigates, as a class in general, are underused and underpowered in serious PvP.
...
I'd suggest keeping the Dramiel the way it is, but bringing other frigates in line with it in terms of capability and speed. Nerfing the Dramiel just hides the fact that many other frigates are wholly inadequate or useless.

I don't mean to be rude, but your obviously a younger player. A good while back, frigates and speed mods had to get an overhaul because they were majorly overpowered. Essentially it was possible to move too fast in regard to tracking issues, manuevering on grid, tackling etc. Rebuffing frigate speed would only mean the return these issues.

A more productive solution might be a small sig radius buff accompanied by a countering buff to small weapons modules and smartbombs. The intent of this set of buffs being better frigate survival against weapons not intended for use against frigates.

Now back to the main topic. I like the dramiel debuff; it keeps the unique character of a frigate class drone platform without keeping all of the advantages of both assault ships and interceptors. The only logistics that really needs help is the Oneiros. A little offensive capability or a better drone bay may be in order. The warpspeed buff is appreciated, but I doubt anyone will feel the difference...and pehaps that's the point.

Alana Blackrose
Posted - 2011.06.10 16:22:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Alana Blackrose on 10/06/2011 16:22:36
I greatly appreciate your apporach to buffing/debuffing. Small incremental improvements tend to get better (if somewhat slower) results than massive changes which can result in over-nerfing and uber-buffing.

Halbert Vector
Posted - 2011.06.10 16:27:00 - [21]
 

The dramiel's speed is a part of it's personality. I'd remove the drones or reduce the bay to 5m3 instead- what does a dramiel need so many drones for anyway? Frigate pilots should be focusing on their velocity, not managing minions.

Reed Tiburon
Caldari
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.06.10 17:23:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: CCP Tallest
Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:

Lostistics
The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.

Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s


Dramiel
It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.

Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg
Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s
Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm

Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s
Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s
Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s
Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)

Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.

Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.


Great initiative, Greyscale. Hopefully you can stick this in Incarna 1.1 or whatever.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.06.10 17:37:00 - [23]
 


Personally, I agree that the speed of the dram is not really the problem... its the tank and dps it has at the same time....

I think a 10-20% reduction in its dps would be the best option... (i.e. reduce drones)

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2011.06.10 17:46:00 - [24]
 

Seems reasonable to me tbh. Keep going! Cool

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:36:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite

Personally, I agree that the speed of the dram is not really the problem... its the tank and dps it has at the same time....

I think a 10-20% reduction in its dps would be the best option... (i.e. reduce drones)


There's certainly different options available when balancing the Dramiel. I would be tempted to leave its speed as it is, but to really reduce the agility and cut the DPS and/or tank too. That would leave it as a really fast frigate, but one that would take a while to get up to speed, and would be vulnerable at gates etc. But CCP's ideas seem sensible enough.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.10 19:42:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite
Personally, I agree that the speed of the dram is not really the problem... its the tank and dps it has at the same time.....

Yet it all comes back to the speed.

Their speed is a big part of the tank and tracking bonus allows them to go full tilt constantly with not a care in the world.
The suggested changes are huge if you are experienced in fighting them. They will not only be slower but more sluggish .. orbits will widen and escape attempts slowed due to poorer acceleration.

I would have tweaked grid to disallow the DP abuse, to force some sort of choice, but mass increase will do nicely .. my Slicer can now drop 1 tracking rig for some more oomph which is of more value against everything else so I am content Very Happy

PS: Big problem is that they will no longer have such a clear advantage so people may start flying the much deadlier DD instead .. dammit!

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.06.10 19:55:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Reed Tiburon
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:

Lostistics
The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool.

Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s


Dramiel
It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well.

Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg
Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s
Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm

Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s
Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s
Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s
Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil)

Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months.

Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.


Great initiative, Greyscale. Hopefully you can stick this in Incarna 1.1 or whatever.


Man, this "balancing" lark is really easy.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:00:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite on 10/06/2011 20:09:06
Originally by: CCP Greyscale

Man, this "balancing" lark is really easy.


Just out of curiosity, what types of litmus tests and procedures does CCP perform when tweaking the balance of ships???

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:43:00 - [29]
 

Good and much needed changes. Dramiel is ******edly overpowered compared to other frigs.

Next, assault frigates ? They are looking very feeble now compared to the faction frigs...very sad.

Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.10 20:56:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre
...Next, assault frigates ? They are looking very feeble now compared to the faction frigs...very sad.

Never mention AFs!

Think some of the devs still have nervous ticks from the last time when they thought they had the answer only to have it torn apart on SiSi Very Happy
It's a bridge class, crammed in between frigates and cruisers with prey/predators in either category .. "fixing" them will require more than a tweak or two I fear.


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