| Author |
Topic |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 05:56:00 - [ 1]
Problem:
Low sec has a much lower population than Emp or Null.
Emp is safe, Null is the most rich in resources. Low is supposed to be the happy middle ground and a place where pirates can do their thing.
Problem is... no carebear will live in Low Sec, because even though the planets and ore is a little better than emp, it does not make up for the increase in risk to losing ones ship or ore to pirates.
Possible Solutions: (up for discussion)
-Fix the Bounty system. (yes its been proposed many many times in the past already)
With a working bounty system, it will encourage mercenaries as a profession. When there are more bounty hunters, there will be mercs where there are mercs then some will enevitably fall to the darkside to become pirates, while others remain true and become vigilantes. Net net, there will be enough of a merc population to have mercs for hire for reasonable prices, so that carebears can just post wanted ads in station for people willing to escort haulers through lowsec or help guard a mining operation. Some may make good honest living as good guy mercs, others as pirates in disguise who gank their employers. All in good fun.
-Add drug production and smuggling, but make it so that certain ingredients for drug or booster production can only be found in low sec. This is more of a heavy handed 'god manupulation of the market' solution, and may have some domino effects that are unforseen, but in the short term, it will boost the desire of people into lowsec.
-Make DUST514 have some sort of game effect that is unique to lowsec. This solution isn't much more than a hazy idea at this point and the sky is the limit to what we can think of, but one may be that DUST514 players play mostly in lowsec because it may be cheaper to hire ground troops in lowsec etc. Perhaps the major ground troop/mercenary guilds can be based there... etc. Its not hard to imagine, as fighting in the core Emp worlds will be minimal (they are at peace for the most part) and fighting in nullsec planets may be too dangerous (you may get stranded on a planet with no NPC transports to get you offworld, relying only on Alliance capsuleers to transport you offworld.) So the 'wildlands' of low sec is where most dust campaigns will occur...
Looking forward to hearing more suggestions.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.07 07:06:00 - [ 2]
My take on what would make me want to put down permanent roots both as carebear and pirate. |
Vaju Katru |
Posted - 2011.06.07 10:14:00 - [ 3]
Put all lvl4 and lvl3 missions in lowsec, reduce the industry power in highsec, reduce the quality of ore in highsec.
Problem solved. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 11:53:00 - [ 4]
 Originally by: Vaju Katru
Put all lvl4 and lvl3 missions in lowsec, reduce the industry power in highsec, reduce the quality of ore in highsec.
Problem solved.
Putting the lvl3/4 missions in low may work, but you can't just send a whole flock of sheep to the slaughter. They won't go willingly. Problem is that mission running uses PvE setups, which will get pwned by a PvP setups. So you may just have much less people running lvl3/4 missions, which, will make implant prices and faction gear prices shoot through the roof. What most people don't realize is that pvpers need mission carebears and vice versa. (else the market will suffer) Interestingly, if this was done, it would increase the number of PvPers as mostly combat types would be forced to flip between running missions in lowsec, to ganking mission runners in lowsec. Without CONCORD the equilibrium will swing in the favor of the gankers then soon you will have everyone become gankers and no more gankees left, making everyone in lowsec, PvPers. What that would lead to is that no haulers or miners (or other non-combat types) would venture into lowsec anymore. (being that the population there is all PvPers) The effect of lowering ore yields won't have the effect you think, I fear. Instead, miners will stay in EmpSec, and all T1 gear will just jump in price to reflect the extra work industrialists need to put in to produce them with low grade ore. ------ so.... What about this... we want lowsec to be 'dangerous' but not as dangerous as Null Sec. What if we allowed people who have good standing with the Sov of the lowSec pirate faction and the main faction (so Derelik would be Ammatar and Sansha) be 'safe' in that region? That would make good game sense. Now how do we implement such relative safety in a region full of PvPers? --Make it so that if you have good standing with X NPC faction, and you attack someone who also has good standing with X, you will lose your standing with X. Also, if your standing is bad enough with X, then obviously gate guns and police will shoot you. This has the effect of making LowSec like a 'baby null sec' except that the 'alliance' in this case is the NPC pirate and/or main Sov faction. So a PvPer pirate will happily gank a stray hauler, unless the hauler/miner is friendly with the same faction the pirate is. If he shot too many 'friendly faction' carebears, then the pirate will find himself unable to dock at stations and have his POSes taxed heavily or some other NPC faction penalty to make it not worth his while. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 11:58:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
My take on what would make me want to put down permanent roots both as carebear and pirate.
Funny I wrote my response to the latest on this thread, then I read your linked discussion, and marveled and how we think alike. :) I like the swearing allegiance thing. But maybe make it simpler. You just swear allegiance the same way someone today joins factional warfare militia. Just join up once your standing is high enough. And adding new lvl3/4 drug trade related missions will give the missioners a reason to move to lowsec, where they will choose to continue to mission, or choose to join the 'militia' (pirate) and keep the region clean of foriegn carebears, while protecting his own carebear industrialists. |
Eperor |
Posted - 2011.06.07 12:19:00 - [ 6]
Edited by: Eperor on 07/06/2011 12:19:19 Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Vaju Katru
Put all lvl4 and lvl3 missions in lowsec, reduce the industry power in highsec, reduce the quality of ore in highsec.
Problem solved.
What about this... we want lowsec to be 'dangerous' but not as dangerous as Null Sec. What if we allowed people who have good standing with the Sov of the lowSec pirate faction and the main faction (so Derelik would be Ammatar and Sansha) be 'safe' in that region? That would make good game sense. Now how do we implement such relative safety in a region full of PvPers? --Make it so that if you have good standing with X NPC faction, and you attack someone who also has good standing with X, you will lose your standing with X. Also, if your standing is bad enough with X, then obviously gate guns and police will shoot you. This has the effect of making LowSec like a 'baby null sec' except that the 'alliance' in this case is the NPC pirate and/or main Sov faction.
So a PvPer pirate will happily gank a stray hauler, unless the hauler/miner is friendly with the same faction the pirate is. If he shot too many 'friendly faction' carebears, then the pirate will find himself unable to dock at stations and have his POSes taxed heavily or some other NPC faction penalty to make it not worth his while.
this wil not solf a tring: 1. risk vs income to low for creabear tio go in to low sec eny way with standing sytem or wit out standing system. So there then need increase income sigificantly to. That litle LP pioint increase will not make eny cearbear go to low sec. 2. miners to will not go to low sec again ting the same incoem VS risk, IF miner can mine lets say 4-7 milj per hour in high sec hee will nto go to mine in low sec to ern 10 milj. risk to big lose 230 milj ship. Specialy miners using usualy multiple chars to mine and mange them all itrs hard in lowsec practicly inposible, and do thet safly. Cerbears and miners wil go only in low sec if his action there will be not posible disturb or income will be so big that that covers ship loses, but with curent incomes there not posibul tio cover a ting. if miner needto mine 20 hours to cover one hulk sorry thanot aceptible, and the same for mision runer if hee need cover his tengu or wath ever ratting ship rat like 6-7 hours to not acceptible. So let me say again thos payers wil go only to low sec if they can aford it that means 1 haur new ship, that wuld be acceptible for cearbears ( i have talked about this with meny ppl asking them a questions and on such results i comed up, ihave lived in low sec in high sec and in 0.0, so i speaking from my exopirince to) Sorry for gramatical mistakes english its not my primary language ilerned it in eve:) |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 12:29:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Eperor
Edited by: Eperor on 07/06/2011 12:19:19
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Vaju Katru
Put all lvl4 and lvl3 missions in lowsec, reduce the industry power in highsec, reduce the quality of ore in highsec.
Problem solved.
What about this... we want lowsec to be 'dangerous' but not as dangerous as Null Sec. What if we allowed people who have good standing with the Sov of the lowSec pirate faction and the main faction (so Derelik would be Ammatar and Sansha) be 'safe' in that region? That would make good game sense. Now how do we implement such relative safety in a region full of PvPers? --Make it so that if you have good standing with X NPC faction, and you attack someone who also has good standing with X, you will lose your standing with X. Also, if your standing is bad enough with X, then obviously gate guns and police will shoot you. This has the effect of making LowSec like a 'baby null sec' except that the 'alliance' in this case is the NPC pirate and/or main Sov faction.
So a PvPer pirate will happily gank a stray hauler, unless the hauler/miner is friendly with the same faction the pirate is. If he shot too many 'friendly faction' carebears, then the pirate will find himself unable to dock at stations and have his POSes taxed heavily or some other NPC faction penalty to make it not worth his while.
this wil not solf a tring:
1. risk vs income to low for creabear tio go in to low sec eny way with standing sytem or wit out standing system. So there then need increase income sigificantly to. That litle LP pioint increase will not make eny cearbear go to low sec.
2. miners to will not go to low sec again ting the same incoem VS risk, IF miner can mine lets say 4-7 milj per hour in high sec hee will nto go to mine in low sec to ern 10 milj. risk to big lose 230 milj ship. Specialy miners using usualy multiple chars to mine and mange them all itrs hard in lowsec practicly inposible, and do thet safly.
Cerbears and miners wil go only in low sec if his action there will be not posible disturb or income will be so big that that covers ship loses, but with curent incomes there not posibul tio cover a ting. if miner needto mine 20 hours to cover one hulk sorry thanot aceptible, and the same for mision runer if hee need cover his tengu or wath ever ratting ship rat like 6-7 hours to not acceptible. So let me say again thos payers wil go only to low sec if they can aford it that means 1 haur new ship, that wuld be acceptible for cearbears ( i have talked about this with meny ppl asking them a questions and on such results i comed up, ihave lived in low sec in high sec and in 0.0, so i speaking from my exopirince to)
Sorry for gramatical mistakes english its not my primary language ilerned it in eve:)
Did you read the part of my (and the other lady's) proposal about making drug production only properous in lowsec? (presumably because pirate factions love drugs and the low sec areas the custom inspectors at the gates are lazy) This is the 'incentive' for carebears to go into lowsec. And with faction alliegience, it will be relatively safe, for the most part. Still, being able to pay for merc escorts would help this a lot. I agree with you insofar as increasing resources in lowsec (drugs and boosters) I disagree with you in that you want to reduce highsec resources. This isn't necessary. Let the 'farmville' players stay in highsec if they like. They will just miss out on the profits to be made in the new black market and booster trade. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.07 12:39:00 - [ 8]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I like the swearing allegiance thing....
Problem with using standings as requirement is that it is comparatively hard to get good pirate standings. Better to pay for the privilege and in the process burn the "easy" standings (ie. Empires), thus technically allowing anyone to stake a claim. Trick is to make people want to go there which can only be done by increasing security (or the sense thereof) and offering something that is not available elsewhere. Former can be NPC based (Concord/Navy) but that would penalise pirates which is counter-productive as low is supposedly their home so it has to be player based. Latter can be any PvE activity, I went with drugs and security rating grind as they are the most "piraty" options available. L3/4 Missions could work, but all that does is alienate the vast number of people who wants to chill, chew the fat and generally just be left alone (read: casual players). My vision was inspired by the pre-drugs mafias in the real world who made their cash by taking dividends from everything on their turf in exchange for protection. |
Eperor |
Posted - 2011.06.07 12:42:00 - [ 9]
Yes i reded that but that not brings much income in drugsn to producet in high amountsi produce them my slef was nedet 2 month to sel in good market hubs all my week production, afciors if this can be chhanged that drugs alowed to use in high sec to but that wil not change a ting. Profit fom drug manufucturing its not inaf to go to low sec.
|
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:17:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Eperor
Yes i reded that but that not brings much income in drugsn to producet in high amountsi produce them my slef was nedet 2 month to sel in good market hubs all my week production, afciors if this can be chhanged that drugs alowed to use in high sec to but that wil not change a ting. Profit fom drug manufucturing its not inaf to go to low sec.
Well then it will be up to CCP to make the drug trade profitable then. Its a separate issue that needs to be looked at. But the solution is rarely to gimp an existing market. RL Analogy: You want more tech businesses in your country? You should give tax incentives to new Tech businesses. You should NOT increase taxes on existing industries (like food production) in the hope of getting them to "change their business" to Technology. It's just a bad idea to mess with the free market. Those who want to play casually, will continue to play casually. You can't and shouldn't FORCE them to move to lowsec. The demographic you want to focus on to move to low sec should be current NullSec folks who are sick of all the warring and bubbles, and new players who want to try out the re-invented pirate "dark side" professions. |
The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc. |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:26:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
-Fix the Bounty system. (yes its been proposed many many times in the past already)
With a working bounty system, it will encourage mercenaries as a profession. When there are more bounty hunters, there will be mercs where there are mercs then some will enevitably fall to the darkside to become pirates, while others remain true and become vigilantes. Net net, there will be enough of a merc population to have mercs for hire for reasonable prices, so that carebears can just post wanted ads in station for people willing to escort haulers through lowsec or help guard a mining operation. Some may make good honest living as good guy mercs, others as pirates in disguise who gank their employers. All in good fun.
You skipped the most important question(everybody that never did bounty hunting and tries to fix it actually does). This question is very simple: "Who will actually pay for this?". If you are ready to pay 200-300 on individual kills you could already get it done by a merc corp, however most people will not invest this much on her personal vendetta against a guy they will probably never see again(since they don't live where he lives, in low sec). Because behind your "white knight" illusion of a bounty hunter there will be actually a kind of a merc, that will not work for free or to protect people that can't do this on her own. He does it for a profit, same as any merc corp now, that doesn't do bounty hunting for the simple reason that it is to much effort and the targets are most likely very skilled solo/small gang pvpers and a pain in the ass to hunt down separately. |
Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:30:00 - [ 12]
Another option: allow player pirate corps and alliances to sell formal Protection Contracts. When another player, corp or alliance buys the contract, they are guaranteed not to be attacked by those player pirates. Funds are held in escrow for the duration of the contract, and at then end are paid to the pirate corp if no violations occur. If the contract is violated, the escrow is returned to the buyer.
Speaking for myself as a mostly-carebear, if I could buy such contracts at a reasonable price, I'd be much more active in low sec than I am now. Usually a low sec system is frequented by one or two specific corps, so if a carebear type can pay those regular pirates off, the place is much safer. A random wanderer could still pose a threat, but it's more of an occasional threat than the massive, looming threat posed by pirates that live there. |
Eperor |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:31:00 - [ 13]
Edited by: Eperor on 07/06/2011 13:32:58 Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
-Fix the Bounty system. (yes its been proposed many many times in the past already)
With a working bounty system, it will encourage mercenaries as a profession. When there are more bounty hunters, there will be mercs where there are mercs then some will enevitably fall to the darkside to become pirates, while others remain true and become vigilantes. Net net, there will be enough of a merc population to have mercs for hire for reasonable prices, so that carebears can just post wanted ads in station for people willing to escort haulers through lowsec or help guard a mining operation. Some may make good honest living as good guy mercs, others as pirates in disguise who gank their employers. All in good fun.
You skipped the most important question(everybody that never did bounty hunting and tries to fix it actually does). This question is very simple: "Who will actually pay for this?". If you are ready to pay 200-300 on individual kills you could already get it done by a merc corp, however most people will not invest this much on her personal vendetta against a guy they will probably never see again(since they don't live where he lives, in low sec).
Because behind your "white knight" illusion of a bounty hunter there will be actually a kind of a merc, that will not work for free or to protect people that can't do this on her own. He does it for a profit, same as any merc corp now, that doesn't do bounty hunting for the simple reason that it is to much effort and the targets are most likely very skilled solo/small gang pvpers and a pain in the ass to hunt down separately.
On this ihave one idea :) ting its such bouty hynting need to be brath togeter with sec status drop, if sec status drops lower then 0.0 than per ewach point wath sec status drops on your head its droping a bounty from concord that actualy wiling to kil you and suports mercs to kill you in low sec. lets say 10 milj per -0.5 points or so. ND if soem one kiling him he not resives sec status drop even if he was -0.01 in sec status that even in high sec pirate itsp irate and have risky live. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:34:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I like the swearing allegiance thing....
Problem with using standings as requirement is that it is comparatively hard to get good pirate standings. Better to pay for the privilege and in the process burn the "easy" standings (ie. Empires), thus technically allowing anyone to stake a claim.
Trick is to make people want to go there which can only be done by increasing security (or the sense thereof) and offering something that is not available elsewhere.
Former can be NPC based (Concord/Navy) but that would penalise pirates which is counter-productive as low is supposedly their home so it has to be player based.
Latter can be any PvE activity, I went with drugs and security rating grind as they are the most "piraty" options available. L3/4 Missions could work, but all that does is alienate the vast number of people who wants to chill, chew the fat and generally just be left alone (read: casual players).
My vision was inspired by the pre-drugs mafias in the real world who made their cash by taking dividends from everything on their turf in exchange for protection.
I like the buying allegiance idea, but I worry that that will tip the scales in favor of the rich, and will pretty much block access to the new lowsec to beginning pirates. Ideally, we need beginning players to bang out a couple of missions in Emp, then move to lowsec quite early on. What about a special mission like the one in the beginning tutorials which there was a point where a pirate NPC wanted to recruit you? Perhaps allow the player to agree to join (perhaps by killing the innocent rats) and that would make the pirate drop a "letter of recommendation" to the player which would give them a 1 time standings boost with the pirate faction? I think that the order of "gentrification" of lowsec is important. First to move in must be the missioners (missioning for pirate agents), once there are enough in a region to be a force, then protection for the haulers and the miners in that pirate space can be achieved. How can we achieve this level of loyalty to a faction? Reward ISK for dogtags/corpses of players who are good standing with your factions enemies (for pirates this will be the "home faction" of your lowsec area. Give standing gains when you kill capsuleers allied with your enemy home factions. Have home factions do the same for those with good standings with pirate ones. Giving standing gains for kills of your enemies will alleviate the 'mission grind' problem, and will ensure that PvPers will inhabit lowsec. Also your idea of 'taking a cut' of the profits in the region is a good one. Allow pirates with good standing (after mission grinding or killing your way up there) to take a cut in the tax revenue that the stations in lowsec collect. In short, make pirate space be an "NPC" alliance. So that its pretty much like null sec, without the sovereignty wars or bubbles, and with pirate missions. My only fear is that it may end up being so lucrative, that too many people will leave null sec for low sec. At least the "casual PvPer" will. Which maybe is a good thing. |
Eperor |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:35:00 - [ 15]
Edited by: Eperor on 07/06/2011 13:37:06 Originally by: Dutarro
Another option: allow player pirate corps and alliances to sell formal Protection Contracts. When another player, corp or alliance buys the contract, they are guaranteed not to be attacked by those player pirates. Funds are held in escrow for the duration of the contract, and at then end are paid to the pirate corp if no violations occur. If the contract is violated, the escrow is returned to the buyer.
Speaking for myself as a mostly-carebear, if I could buy such contracts at a reasonable price, I'd be much more active in low sec than I am now. Usually a low sec system is frequented by one or two specific corps, so if a carebear type can pay those regular pirates off, the place is much safer. A random wanderer could still pose a threat, but it's more of an occasional threat than the massive, looming threat posed by pirates that live there.
but here is the ting ;) alts :) and such stuf. pirats wil be not interested protect tehm they jsut wil take his alts and kil them them self and lot them, i tink there need to be ting that if no vialince att al acure not only form them bu8t from every one els, if vilience they not resiving amoney att all toget more attention to protect thios miners or cearbears in low sec. And wil bring more fightuing between pirates actrualy more ship losts not only 1 cearbears ship them but more pvp ships more demanfd in market etc. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:39:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Dutarro
Another option: allow player pirate corps and alliances to sell formal Protection Contracts. When another player, corp or alliance buys the contract, they are guaranteed not to be attacked by those player pirates. Funds are held in escrow for the duration of the contract, and at then end are paid to the pirate corp if no violations occur. If the contract is violated, the escrow is returned to the buyer.
Speaking for myself as a mostly-carebear, if I could buy such contracts at a reasonable price, I'd be much more active in low sec than I am now. Usually a low sec system is frequented by one or two specific corps, so if a carebear type can pay those regular pirates off, the place is much safer. A random wanderer could still pose a threat, but it's more of an occasional threat than the massive, looming threat posed by pirates that live there.
Excellent idea. But what if the contract is breached? Will there be some sort of repercussion? I hope that it won't be achieved outside of the game mechanics. It would be pretty lame to not be able to lock somebody just because they had "protection". Perhaps by way of a standing loss or fine. Or a free insurance payout to the buyer of the protection in the case they are attacked? |
The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc. |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:39:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Eperor
On this i have one idea :)
ting its such bouty hynting need to be brath togeter with sec status drop, if sec status drops lower then 0.0 than per ewach point wath sec status drops on your head its droping a bounty from concord that actualy wiling to kil you and suports ader mercs to kill you in low sec. lets say 10 milj per -0.5 points or so.
People will simply farm her alts for ISK, a system that generates the ISK out of the air doesn't work. It needs to come from a source that is A: not infinite and B: re spawning reasonable quick. This actually means the people that the pirate kills need to pay for it to make it halve way interesting for a merc. Then you will have actually a system that works for real bounty hunters and carebears will hate it because they get charged twice(ship, bounty) anytime they get killed in Low Sec by a pirate. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:42:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 07/06/2011 13:50:07 Originally by: Eperor
On this ihave one idea :)
ting its such bouty hynting need to be brath togeter with sec status drop, if sec status drops lower then 0.0 than per ewach point wath sec status drops on your head its droping a bounty from concord that actualy wiling to kil you and suports mercs to kill you in low sec. lets say 10 milj per -0.5 points or so. ND if soem one kiling him he not resives sec status drop even if he was -0.01 in sec status that even in high sec pirate itsp irate and have risky live.
Not a bad idea... Couple this with the idea that was proposed about buying a "protection contract", this could work. If you breach a protection contract, then CONCORD will come for you... same as if you ganked a normal player is highsec. Faster in 0.4, slowest in 0.1. EDIT: Eperor, I misunderstood you. I don't agree that CONCORD should be putting bounties. As Djego mentioned any new ISK source needs to be VERY well justified to ensure it is not abused. I was agreeing insofar as CONCORD should be the enforcer of Dutarro's Protection Contracts. The problem of alts isn't going to go away. The best defense against alt abuse is standings. Standings need to be hard to gain, and you need to grind a bit to get them. If you can achieve standings too easily, then people will just pay alts to get standings. Then use them to gank unsuspecting carebears who *thought* that they were on the same "pirate team". Then just throw away the alt, and pass the loot onto the real main toon. |
Eperor |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:42:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I like the swearing allegiance thing....
Problem with using standings as requirement is that it is comparatively hard to get good pirate standings. Better to pay for the privilege and in the process burn the "easy" standings (ie. Empires), thus technically allowing anyone to stake a claim.
Trick is to make people want to go there which can only be done by increasing security (or the sense thereof) and offering something that is not available elsewhere.
Former can be NPC based (Concord/Navy) but that would penalise pirates which is counter-productive as low is supposedly their home so it has to be player based.
Latter can be any PvE activity, I went with drugs and security rating grind as they are the most "piraty" options available. L3/4 Missions could work, but all that does is alienate the vast number of people who wants to chill, chew the fat and generally just be left alone (read: casual players).
My vision was inspired by the pre-drugs mafias in the real world who made their cash by taking dividends from everything on their turf in exchange for protection.
I like the buying allegiance idea, but I worry that that will tip the scales in favor of the rich, and will pretty much block access to the new lowsec to beginning pirates. Ideally, we need beginning players to bang out a couple of missions in Emp, then move to lowsec quite early on. What about a special mission like the one in the beginning tutorials which there was a point where a pirate NPC wanted to recruit you? Perhaps allow the player to agree to join (perhaps by killing the innocent rats) and that would make the pirate drop a "letter of recommendation" to the player which would give them a 1 time standings boost with the pirate faction?
I think that the order of "gentrification" of lowsec is important. First to move in must be the missioners (missioning for pirate agents), once there are enough in a region to be a force, then protection for the haulers and the miners in that pirate space can be achieved.
How can we achieve this level of loyalty to a faction? Reward ISK for dogtags/corpses of players who are good standing with your factions enemies (for pirates this will be the "home faction" of your lowsec area. Give standing gains when you kill capsuleers allied with your enemy home factions. Have home factions do the same for those with good standings with pirate ones.
Giving standing gains for kills of your enemies will alleviate the 'mission grind' problem, and will ensure that PvPers will inhabit lowsec. Also your idea of 'taking a cut' of the profits in the region is a good one. Allow pirates with good standing (after mission grinding or killing your way up there) to take a cut in the tax revenue that the stations in lowsec
collect.
In short, make pirate space be an "NPC" alliance. So that its pretty much like null sec, without the sovereignty wars or bubbles, and with pirate missions.
My only fear is that it may end up being so lucrative, that too many people will leave null sec for low sec. At least the "casual PvPer" will. Which maybe is a good thing.
i see that you tinking more fprm pirate point off wieve but heren need to tink more form pve ting how that poor cearbear wil arn fast inaf ship back if that its profitable for him to do there and such stuf idea is giood to bring ppl in low sec but need more economical tings here like sytem how can cearber survive there duing his own ting. and bring more fighting in the same time i tink thatr contract ting can probably work but stil need work out details much more details. |
Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:47:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Dutarro
Another option: allow player pirate corps and alliances to sell formal Protection Contracts. ...
Excellent idea.
But what if the contract is breached? Will there be some sort of repercussion? I hope that it won't be achieved outside of the game mechanics. It would be pretty lame to not be able to lock somebody just because they had "protection". Perhaps by way of a standing loss or fine. Or a free insurance payout to the buyer of the protection in the case they are attacked?
The ISK for the contract should be held in escrow for the duration. If the contract is breached, it is refunded to the buyer .. only if the contract is finished without violation does the pirate corp collect ISK. As for accidental violation, there could be a popup warning, same as when you attack a neutral outside null sec. |
Eperor |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:48:00 - [ 21]
Edited by: Eperor on 07/06/2011 13:53:49 Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Dutarro
Another option: allow player pirate corps and alliances to sell formal Protection Contracts. When another player, corp or alliance buys the contract, they are guaranteed not to be attacked by those player pirates. Funds are held in escrow for the duration of the contract, and at then end are paid to the pirate corp if no violations occur. If the contract is violated, the escrow is returned to the buyer.
Speaking for myself as a mostly-carebear, if I could buy such contracts at a reasonable price, I'd be much more active in low sec than I am now. Usually a low sec system is frequented by one or two specific corps, so if a carebear type can pay those regular pirates off, the place is much safer. A random wanderer could still pose a threat, but it's more of an occasional threat than the massive, looming threat posed by pirates that live there.
Excellent idea.
But what if the contract is breached? Will there be some sort of repercussion? I hope that it won't be achieved outside of the game mechanics. It would be pretty lame to not be able to lock somebody just because they had "protection". Perhaps by way of a standing loss or fine. Or a free insurance payout to the buyer of the protection in the case they are attacked?
I tink there need suys chustem in that contract ting 1. cereabear pays mercs for protection h hee with live therei nthat low sec soem x timem, mercs have contracts for that area, cearbear accepting contract by paying all amount in midle bank or fat wever can be usued curent curerr contract system for that to, Mercs not resiving mopney yet. 2. time is going mercs protecting cearber etc. 3. time its up for conteract.: a. creaberat lost ship to players, mercs not resive a**** all moeny go to cearbear beck - tax like seling tax. (rat loses , self destruckt not counts) b. Cerbear not lost a ship in that time to players, mercs resiving money. IF prices wil be resonable then actualy this can bring soem live into low sec and more fighting to over low sec systems, that wil bring pasive income to the low sec allainces and corps. by duing his own ting fighting in low sec. And wil bring up small gang pvp back in live. |
Eperor |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:51:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: Eperor
On this i have one idea :)
ting its such bouty hynting need to be brath togeter with sec status drop, if sec status drops lower then 0.0 than per ewach point wath sec status drops on your head its droping a bounty from concord that actualy wiling to kil you and suports ader mercs to kill you in low sec. lets say 10 milj per -0.5 points or so.
People will simply farm her alts for ISK, a system that generates the ISK out of the air doesn't work.
It needs to come from a source that is A: not infinite and B: re spawning reasonable quick. This actually means the people that the pirate kills need to pay for it to make it halve way interesting for a merc.
Then you will have actually a system that works for real bounty hunters and carebears will hate it because they get charged twice(ship, bounty) anytime they get killed in Low Sec by a pirate.
to true |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:55:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Dutarro
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Dutarro
Another option: allow player pirate corps and alliances to sell formal Protection Contracts. ...
Excellent idea.
But what if the contract is breached? Will there be some sort of repercussion? I hope that it won't be achieved outside of the game mechanics. It would be pretty lame to not be able to lock somebody just because they had "protection". Perhaps by way of a standing loss or fine. Or a free insurance payout to the buyer of the protection in the case they are attacked?
The ISK for the contract should be held in escrow for the duration. If the contract is breached, it is refunded to the buyer .. only if the contract is finished without violation does the pirate corp collect ISK.
As for accidental violation, there could be a popup warning, same as when you attack a neutral outside null sec.
That works too. Paid "protection" I like it. Very mafia. Very Piraty. Almost there. But what if you are a hauler? Surely you wouldn't pay the full value of your load for a protection contract, as it won't be worth it for you to haul anymore. But if you didn't, then it is always more profitable for the pirate to gank you and steal your load than protect you and collect the protection contract. |
Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective |
Posted - 2011.06.07 14:04:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
That works too. Paid "protection" I like it. Very mafia. Very Piraty.
Almost there. But what if you are a hauler? Surely you wouldn't pay the full value of your load for a protection contract, as it won't be worth it for you to haul anymore. But if you didn't, then it is always more profitable for the pirate to gank you and steal your load than protect you and collect the protection contract.
If I hauled through the same low sec system(s) on a regular basis, I would consider buying protection there. No single load would be worth as much as the contract, but added together over a few days or weeks it would be a reasonable business expense. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 14:18:00 - [ 25]
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 07/06/2011 14:21:10 Originally by: Dutarro
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
That works too. Paid "protection" I like it. Very mafia. Very Piraty.
Almost there. But what if you are a hauler? Surely you wouldn't pay the full value of your load for a protection contract, as it won't be worth it for you to haul anymore. But if you didn't, then it is always more profitable for the pirate to gank you and steal your load than protect you and collect the protection contract.
If I hauled through the same low sec system(s) on a regular basis, I would consider buying protection there. No single load would be worth as much as the contract, but added together over a few days or weeks it would be a reasonable business expense.
Hmm. Interesting. How long will these contracts last then? I suppose some variable lengths that you can choose, a day, a week, a month. Have CONCORD warn you before your contract expires. I think this is a good proposal...but there are holes. I still think there needs to be some non-isk disincentive for a policy insurer not to reneg on the contract. Perhaps standing loss with the pirate faction. We don't want it to be too easy for a a rival to pay off the pirate. Also there is the problem of the time value of the protection contract. Hypothetical: Hauler A pays 10 million isk for protection for 1 week. Each day he hauls 2 million isk worth. Problem: On the last day, if someone ganks the hauler, the pirate loses out on 10 million. -- unfair for the pirate. In fact, on the last day, smart haulers would have a friend gank them. :) What if you pay the contract on a prorated basis? So that if ganked on the last day, the pirate still gets 6/7 of the 10million? IE each day, the pirate "earns" 1/7th of the escrow? Problem: Then each day, the protection is only worth 1/7 of the escrow. :) which completely makes the protection contract worthless. (as any day the hauler is seen to move > 1/7*10,000,000, he is ganked.) EDIT: embellished my example |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
|
Posted - 2011.06.07 14:45:00 - [ 26]
there will be always ppl who rather lose ships to npc's (=ccp) than fellow players
|
Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective |
Posted - 2011.06.07 14:53:00 - [ 27]
Quote:
Problem: On the last day, if someone ganks the hauler, the pirate loses out on 10 million. -- unfair for the pirate. In fact, on the last day, smart haulers would have a friend gank them. :)
The Protection Contract would only be voided if the issuing pirate corp/alliance is the one to gank the hauler. A third party gank would have no effect. You're not really paying the pirates to 'protect' you, only paying them not to kill you for some period of time. This can be done today by paying a pirate corp to set you blue (and I've done it), but a more formal game mechanic may give more industrial players confidence that the contract will be respected. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2011.06.07 15:03:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
.. but I worry that that will tip the scales in favor of the rich..
At the cost of a war-dec (one time fee), you would have to be straight out of the academy to not be able to afford it. In my vision you can only lose that fee if another corporation successfully claims the same area, but then you are a badass pirate with guns so defending your turf should be second nature. Back when CCP still cared about RP they were willing to change standings of characters to suit the game. Swearing allegiance could give a 5.0 to pirate faction and whatever derived penalty is associated with such a change (ie. hunted in nearly all Empires). Positive pirate standing would be lost if control is lost, but all negatives would/should remain to empathize the consequences of that life-style choice. The contract idea was debated 2-3 years ago and was discarded. There is absolutely no reason to assume that either side will live up to their end, the first hauler to exceed the value in escrow and 'poof'. The purchase price would need to be absolutely insane for it to make any sense .. think about what might need hauling or what other activity one might engage in and run the actual numbers (hint: hundreds of millions). |
Tsual
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 15:04:00 - [ 29]
Edited by: Tsual on 07/06/2011 15:09:01 Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I still think there needs to be some non-isk disincentive for a policy insurer not to reneg on the contract. Perhaps standing loss with the pirate faction.
We don't want it to be too easy for a a rival to pay off the pirate.
Which has the problem that even today security standing loss only keeps a part of the community from ganking. Nevertheless I do like the idea. For those being younger: link to older disucssions. |
Kaelie Onren
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.06.07 15:15:00 - [ 30]
Originally by: Dutarro
Quote:
Problem: On the last day, if someone ganks the hauler, the pirate loses out on 10 million. -- unfair for the pirate. In fact, on the last day, smart haulers would have a friend gank them. :)
The Protection Contract would only be voided if the issuing pirate corp/alliance is the one to gank the hauler. A third party gank would have no effect. You're not really paying the pirates to 'protect' you, only paying them not to kill you for some period of time.
This can be done today by paying a pirate corp to set you blue (and I've done it), but a more formal game mechanic may give more industrial players confidence that the contract will be respected.
But then how will I know 'who' to buy contracts from? If 10 corps are based in a region, would I have to buy contracts from all of them? What's to stop somebody from saying "hey, I see your nice ship there, and nice cargo... buy a protection contract from me otherwise I blow you up now". This will degrade into the 'Bully and Lunch Money' scam immediately. If the protection contract is not a 'protection' contract, IE, a Merc/escort contract, I don't see this working. |
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