| Author |
Topic |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.01 10:15:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: Miilla on 01/06/2011 14:19:04
Since EVE patch's are now getting bigger with Incarna.
The current practice of dumping a huge blob down each time does not seem to scale well going forward
Will CCP in future change this to perhaps pushing out DIFF's to reduce patch size and perhaps also a seperate patcher that pulls down the diff's prior to the server being patched.
Also it will have to be able to resume from interrupted connections.
This is not meant as a replacement for manual patches and full installer, but for the current autopatcher.
Other people mentioned Sony do this and it works well.
PS: Troll posts and offtopic posts will be reported ( this is not a my internet / hardware is better than yours thread ).
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Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.01 13:15:00 - [ 2]
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Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force |
Posted - 2011.06.01 13:24:00 - [ 3]
Actually their plan of releasing things in iterations has led to alot smaller patches. Imagine we got everything that has been released in Incursion in one patch? It'd be at least 2GB+.
Torrents are a good way to download large files tbh, they should always have a checksum to make sure your file is downloaded correctly.
If you're reeally paranoid about your connections sometimes game patches appear on the discs on gaming magazines. Granted they are aaaaages out of date though.
Or find some friends who are willing to download patches then copy the data off their PC, either directly via FTP or get him to burn the data onto a DVD. |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.01 13:27:00 - [ 4]
Edited by: Miilla on 01/06/2011 13:35:17 Originally by: Anddeh McNab
Actually their plan of releasing things in iterations has led to alot smaller patches. Imagine we got everything that has been released in Incursion in one patch? It'd be at least 2GB+.
Torrents are a good way to download large files tbh, they should always have a checksum to make sure your file is downloaded correctly.
If you're reeally paranoid about your connections sometimes game patches appear on the discs on gaming magazines. Granted they are aaaaages out of date though.
Or find some friends who are willing to download patches then copy the data off their PC, either directly via FTP or get him to burn the data onto a DVD.
Yes they have and that's good but what about pushing out DIFFs and not the entire binaries and also pre-caching fixes, even if they do some modifications after its pushed out, they can push out a smaller fix queued after. p2p does not really work on EDGE/GPRS because of all the connections being created and torn down. I find the web download FASTER ironically and more stable I just have to use resume support from the firefox add-on. Sure I can use a faster internet when I drive into a city but that is not the real solution which I am proposing here. This is not a discussion about "your intenret sucks or whatever" we can all benefit from a BETTER deployment strategy, not just the people on slow or quota'd connections. Speed isn't always the problem, there is now quota's being enforced, I allow 1gb per month for Windows fixes, then general traffic, then sometimes game patches on steam, somtimes 2gb or more, plus new purchases, and on top of that, game bandwidth usage, 100mb per evening easy which is light. And that is just one user, and one machine, scale that up to a family even on the same internet, your month quota disappears FAST. I repeat, this is not a my internet is better than your internet thread. |
Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force |
Posted - 2011.06.01 13:46:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Miilla
Yes they have and that's good but what about pushing out DIFFs and not the entire binaries?
Differential patches would work great if it was a patch of changes/fixes but alot of these patches are completely new content. You could try using the repair tool, as that basically looks at what you do have and compares it to what you need and downloads the difference. No guarantees though. Originally by: Miilla
Sure I can use a faster internet when I drive into a city but that is not the real solution which I am proposing here. This is not a discussion about "your intenret sucks or whatever" we can all benefit from a BETTER deployment strategy.
Actually, this is one of the times I'm not insulting you so use it wisely. Back on topic, there's no getting around the fact that you have to get that 500MB through your connection one way or another. Which is why I suggested using someone else's connection, even if it's just taking a trip into town and sitting in an internet cafe for an afternoon. Or getting someone else to download it for your and stick it on a disk. Originally by: Miilla
Speed isn't always the problem, there is now quota's being enforced, I allow 1gb per month for Windows fixes, then general traffic, then sometimes game patches on steam, somtimes 2gb or more, plus new purchases, and on top of that, game bandwidth usage, 100mb per evening easy which is light.
ISP's are frankly falling over themselves enforcing download limits and paying for each megabyte downloaded. Which is disgusting to be honest and part of the reason I back net neutrality (no derailing please). I believe it's now cheaper in Canada to buy new a SSD card, load your data onto that and mail it than it is to use the internet. Not sure how true that is though. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.01 13:48:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Miilla
Will CCP in future change this to perhaps pushing out DIFF's to reduce patch size
As far as I know, that's what they are usually doing already. This patch however has replaced a truckload of old data. |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 13:49:00 - [ 7]
Edited by: Miilla on 01/06/2011 13:50:30 Originally by: Anddeh McNab
Originally by: Miilla
Yes they have and that's good but what about pushing out DIFFs and not the entire binaries?
Differential patches would work great if it was a patch of changes/fixes but alot of these patches are completely new content. You could try using the repair tool, as that basically looks at what you do have and compares it to what you need and downloads the difference. No guarantees though.
Originally by: Miilla
Sure I can use a faster internet when I drive into a city but that is not the real solution which I am proposing here. This is not a discussion about "your intenret sucks or whatever" we can all benefit from a BETTER deployment strategy.
Actually, this is one of the times I'm not insulting you so use it wisely. Back on topic, there's no getting around the fact that you have to get that 500MB through your connection one way or another. Which is why I suggested using someone else's connection, even if it's just taking a trip into town and sitting in an internet cafe for an afternoon. Or getting someone else to download it for your and stick it on a disk.
Originally by: Miilla
Speed isn't always the problem, there is now quota's being enforced, I allow 1gb per month for Windows fixes, then general traffic, then sometimes game patches on steam, somtimes 2gb or more, plus new purchases, and on top of that, game bandwidth usage, 100mb per evening easy which is light.
ISP's are frankly falling over themselves enforcing download limits and paying for each megabyte downloaded. Which is disgusting to be honest and part of the reason I back net neutrality (no derailing please). I believe it's now cheaper in Canada to buy new a SSD card, load your data onto that and mail it than it is to use the internet. Not sure how true that is though.
I know you are not Im just stating we can ALL benefit even if we have the worlds fastest internet with no caps. Diff patches yes you are right if it is new files, but you would be supprised how much it would reduce in the size of the download, plus pre-caching is a sensible approach and not last minute which stinks of panic and bad planning but works by the skin of its teeth so don't change it attitude. I don't understand why people are so against a better deployment strategy when they benefit from it also as they have demonstrated in previous threads on the subject, I guess some people fear improvement / change. |
DarkXale
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.01 13:50:00 - [ 8]
Edited by: DarkXale on 01/06/2011 13:50:49 Originally by: Miilla
I repeat, this is not a my Internet is better than your Internet thread.
Work out a better contract? You can't really get around huge downloads being necessary when releasing large amounts of content. The current period is more of an exception than a norm - because of the fact that they're releasing a lot of new raw data, rather than altered programming code. Captain's quarters, and eventually the complete walking in stations should be the only big downloads remaining for a forseeable future. |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.01 13:52:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: Miilla on 01/06/2011 13:56:51 Originally by: DarkXale
Originally by: Miilla
I repeat, this is not a my Internet is better than your Internet thread.
Work out a better contract? You can't really get around huge downloads being necessary when releasing large amounts of content. The current period is more of an exception than a norm - because of the fact that they're releasing a lot of new raw data, rather than programming code. Captain's quarters, and eventually the complete walking in stations should be the only big downloads remaining for a forseeable future.
Here we go.. as expected. I am 1km up a mountian , no fiber, copper is too far from the exchange, I am mobile EDGE/GPRS and hopefully 3G sometime, but all have stupidly low caps, my neighbours have no wifi, my neighbours are far away and most have helicopters in their side field to get about (no kidding), not far from a city yes but this is not about that, this is about getting a better deployment strategy working for the benefit of everybody (including CCP). Work out a new contract? There IS NONE to work out. But again I will repeat, WE ALL BENEFIT FROM A BETTER DEPLOYMENT STRATEGY. Is there anybody at CCP that has any input on this? |
DarkXale
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.06.01 13:58:00 - [ 10]
Edited by: DarkXale on 01/06/2011 13:59:51 Originally by: Miilla
But again I will repeat, WE ALL BENEFIT FROM A BETTER DEPLOYMENT STRATEGY.
And how do you plan to alter a necessary 500mb deployment with strategy? Filesize isn't going to go down because of the raw data. You may be able to spread what raw data is downloaded slightly through pre-downloads (much like WoW employs) but thats about it. That itself has other problems because if that raw data needs to be altered, the download sum increases - possibly significantly. |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:01:00 - [ 11]
Edited by: Miilla on 01/06/2011 14:04:25 Originally by: DarkXale
Originally by: Miilla
But again I will repeat, WE ALL BENEFIT FROM A BETTER DEPLOYMENT STRATEGY.
And how do you plan to alter a necessary 500mb deployment with strategy? Filesize isn't going to go down because of the raw data. You may be able to spread what raw data is downloaded slightly through pre-downloads (much like WoW employs) but thats about it.
Push out Diff's to remove some of the amount (it will reduce some again that will vary depending on the content of course but still worth doing) Pre-caching so everybody is closer to the same page when the server goes live, even with last minute fixes queued up is fine. 2 things that would improve patch days for all. You still have the manual patches and full downloads (for people that want / need them - even maybe add a CCP supported torrent) but this would be to replace the auto patcher which just pumps out a .7z blob. It would be nice to get some CCP input on this and not just player squabbling. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.01 14:05:00 - [ 12]
So you really think the last couple of years we DIDN'T have any differential patches, ever ? |
Aeronwen Carys
Sebiestor Tribe |
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:06:00 - [ 13]
I'm not trolling you for a change Miilla. I really do sympathise having been reduced to EDGE/GPRS myself in the past, but I wouldn't expect a company to change things just for me. The current strategy works perfectly well for a massive percentage of the player base and is the easiest option for CCP, so I wouldn't expect it to change, ever. |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:07:00 - [ 14]
Edited by: Miilla on 01/06/2011 14:07:44 Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
I'm not trolling you for a change Miilla. I really do sympathise having been reduced to EDGE/GPRS myself in the past, but I wouldn't expect a company to change things just for me. The current strategy works perfectly well for a massive percentage of the player base and is the easiest option for CCP, so I wouldn't expect it to change, ever.
This change isn't just for me, tomorrow I could end up on a super fast stable noncapped connection, I would still like to see improvement. Originally by: Akita T
So you really think the last couple of years we DIDN'T have any differential patches, ever ?
Did they? I don't know, I'm asking for CCP's input on this so we can find out. There is still the timing of the deployment to customers (pre-caching) I would like their input on too. |
Davich MacGregor
Minmatar
Stellar Products and Quality Resources
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Posted - 2011.06.01 14:07:00 - [ 15]
I see nothing wrong with the size of this patch. I get it started and go do something. Doesn't take long really. |
Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.06.01 14:08:00 - [ 16]
Newsbreak: It's not the 90's anymore, 500mb is nothing and thinking it is is rather naive.
Use a download manager or work out a way of downloading the patch elsewhere. Most rural communities have at least one place where the public can get a decent connection.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.01 14:11:00 - [ 17]
Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2011 14:12:30 Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Akita T
So you really think the last couple of years we DIDN'T have any differential patches, ever ?
Did they?
Yes, as far as I remember, we had quite a few differential patches in the past. Plenty of RTP files. But sometimes, that is just not feasible (or is pointless), especially when a lot of data is added or changed. Most of the latest expansions and patches have either added or replaced a truckload of data. This one, for instance, is mostly replacement data. |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts |
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:12:00 - [ 18]
Eve is not 550 MB in size (it's bigger). This is obviously a differential patch. If you want a comment from the devs, read the devblogs. They changed the UI a lot and had to touch a lot of files to do so. Hence, relatively big patch.
TL;DR Devs commented. Read blogs. |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:12:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Akita T
So you really think the last couple of years we DIDN'T have any differential patches, ever ?
Did they?
Yes, as far as I remember, we had quite a few differential patches in the past.
But sometimes, that is just not feasible (or is pointless), especially when a lot of data is added or changed.
Most of the latest expansions and patches have either added or replaced a truckload of data.
This one, for instance, is mostly replacement data.
Which is fine, there is still the strategy of pre-loading prior to go live day. I would like to hear from CCP and not player squabbling comparing ehm, wires. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:14:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Miilla
Which is fine, there is still the strategy of pre-loading prior to go live day.
Considering they're still changing stuff up to the last minute... would you rather get a big patch (but not apply it) one or two days early, then get a smaller differential one afterwards ? |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:15:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Miilla
Which is fine, there is still the strategy of pre-loading prior to go live day.
Considering they're still changing stuff up to the last minute... would you rather get a big patch (but not apply it) one or two days early, then get a smaller differential one afterwards ?
You can still do last minute changes with pre-loading, most likely the changes you make will not be major and small fixes. You can enqueue them for after the main patch as normal in sequence of build numbers. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:19:00 - [ 22]
So, to recap, you are unaware of how CCP delivers patches and why they do it the way they do, you recommend them to do something they already do whenever possible, then end up complaining about the fact you'd want the patches to come up earlier than they do, because... what was the reason again ? Your internet is somehow not just capped, but also slow ? And you just have to login as soon as the servers come up ? |
Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:36:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Akita T
So, to recap, you are unaware of how CCP delivers patches and why they do it the way they do, you recommend them to do something they already do whenever possible, then end up complaining about the fact you'd want the patches to come up earlier than they do, because... what was the reason again ? Your internet is somehow not just capped, but also slow ? And you just have to login as soon as the servers come up ?
Still waiting for CCP to tell me im talking out of my buttocks. |
Aeronwen Carys
Sebiestor Tribe |
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:51:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Akita T
So, to recap, you are unaware of how CCP delivers patches and why they do it the way they do, you recommend them to do something they already do whenever possible, then end up complaining about the fact you'd want the patches to come up earlier than they do, because... what was the reason again ? Your internet is somehow not just capped, but also slow ? And you just have to login as soon as the servers come up ?
Still waiting for CCP to tell me im talking out of my buttocks.
Maybe their silence should be taken as an answer Miilla, and lets face it, after the number of pointless spam filled crap threads you have made, why should a single member of CCP staff bother taking the time to talk to you? I gotta be honest, if I worked for CCP I would ignore you permanently. The phrase I'm looking for is "The boy who cried wolf". |
CCP Atropos
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Posted - 2011.06.01 15:29:00 - [ 25]
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Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.01 15:32:00 - [ 26]
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Sieges |
Posted - 2011.06.01 15:38:00 - [ 27]
I am falling victim to download caps as well (AT&T is enforcing 150 GB/month in the US). I am beginning to wish for diffs as well, unless of course that is already being done. |
CCP Atropos
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Posted - 2011.06.01 15:39:00 - [ 28]
Seriously though, we've been doing differential patches for a very long time. If you open one of the .7z that you get you'll see that it contains this:  Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.These files are .rtp, which are generated by an application called RTPatch from Pocket Soft. We actually store the per file diff's generated by the software, on disk, and then combine them as needed into the patches that we then compress and distribute to you, the user. Since the patches are made from a particular static point in the code base, any later fixes can't simply be added in, and must be patched separately in either a full patch, or the lighter client updates that you would have seen. Because of this, we can't preload the data, and it's also why we discourage people from playing super sleuth and trying to find the patch early and patch up with it, since we might, as you say, change the patch at short notice. We do have plans for pre-loading and making the patching/installing/fixing process more straightforward that I'd be happy to discuss, in some depth, if you're interested. |
Zofran |
Posted - 2011.06.01 15:41:00 - [ 29]
But guys, if we push out all the horrible Incarna files before release (which will most likely be replaced anyway), we'll totally get a smaller final patch and people wont be like 'oh god what a bloated piece of crud' on patch day~~ |
Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce |
Posted - 2011.06.01 15:41:00 - [ 30]
Please Please Please Do.  |
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