Posted - 2011.05.30 10:34:00 - [3]

 

Was wondering this myself as I gear up this toon for L4's.

Posted - 2011.05.30 12:42:00 - [5]

 

Originally by: McRoll

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Not "still good"- its overall the best.

Since the tracking enhancer boost the Vargur became the PVE ship of choice for Minmatar along the Machariel. You need to fit it right to get the most out of it.

- make sure you have the Projectile Burst Aerator II rigged. This is mandatory to get the most DPS out of it. The second rig is an Projectile Ambit Extension I
- 3 faction gyros and 2 tracking enhancers
- 800 autos

This is the core fitting which offers the best damage/range combination and is mandatory. For the rest, fit it as you are comfortable with, if you feel secure add a tracking computer for a bit more range.

Vargur is so great because it offers all the useful bonuses in one package- shield boost amount, damage, falloff and tracking. Add T2 resistances and a great slot layout to that and you have the perfect PvE ship, since it can also switch ammo for every damage profile.

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Vargur has slot layout problems in respect to gank. A cookie cutter Mach fields 4 faction gyros and 3 tes instead of 3 and 2. Its active tank isn't nearly as good though.

Posted - 2011.05.30 13:46:00 - [7]

 

Edited by: McRoll on 30/05/2011 13:48:22

Originally by: Goose99

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Vargur has slot layout problems in respect to gank. A cookie cutter Mach fields 4 faction gyros and 3 tes instead of 3 and 2. Its active tank isn't nearly as good though.

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This is why you usually fit a tracking computer which substitutes the 3rd TE. Also, the Mach has not enough calibration points to fit a Burst Aerator II together with 2 other meaningful rigs. Alternatively you have to leave one rig slot unfitted. 4 guns on the Varg means that you can use faction ammo or Barrage in some cases without going bankrupt like on the Mach.

The DPS advantages comes mainly from drones, the gun DPS is not far off.

In regard to the Golem, I've flown it and I am not impressed overall. The DPS can be better than Vargs, but only in very BS heavy missions and when they are inside 40 km range. The disadvantages are the short range of torps (or worse DPS if you use Javelins), bad DPS agsinst small ships and constant fiddling with target painters. You also have to use your drones vs frigs, the Varg just pops them on approach in one salvo, which shortens mission times a LOT.

Edit: The only place where Vargur doesnt shine is vs Guristas, because of bad damage profile (no pure kinetic ammo) and due to longer ranges. Also, they jam. But then again, you shouldnt mission vs Guristas anyway, junk loot and salvage and constant jamming should turn everybody off.

Posted - 2011.05.30 21:12:00 - [9]

 

Originally by: McRoll

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Not "still good"- its overall the best.

Since the tracking enhancer boost the Vargur became the PVE ship of choice for Minmatar along the Machariel. You need to fit it right to get the most out of it.

- make sure you have the Projectile Burst Aerator II rigged. This is mandatory to get the most DPS out of it. The second rig is an Projectile Ambit Extension I
- 3 faction gyros and 2 tracking enhancers
- 800 autos

This is the core fitting which offers the best damage/range combination and is mandatory. For the rest, fit it as you are comfortable with, if you feel secure add a tracking computer for a bit more range.

Vargur is so great because it offers all the useful bonuses in one package- shield boost amount, damage, falloff and tracking. Add T2 resistances and a great slot layout to that and you have the perfect PvE ship, since it can also switch ammo for every damage profile.

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How you gonna fit a prop mod with those two dps rigs?

Posted - 2011.05.31 01:53:00 - [11]

 

Like the Vargur in particular for Angels. I've got a very conservative pure tech II fit and can still eat through most Angel cruisers and BCs with three shots max.

Posted - 2011.05.31 13:07:00 - [13]

 

Originally by: McRoll

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Yep, if you dont try to squeeze arty on there everything fits perfectly fine. Were you trying to fit an XL booster on it? A large faction or cheap complex is enough for everything.

Originally by: JackStraw56

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Vargur is good but Machariel is better. It can tank level 4s without issue, is faster than the Vargur and does more DPS. The Vargur shield boost bonus is nice but not necessary to tank level 4 missions.

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The ability to salvage on the go (killing while looting and salvaging) nets you way more isk/h than 2 minutes faster completion times. Also, those more DPS are paper DPS, they come mainly from drones as stated above and you need to factor in travel time of heavies or the immobility of sentries.

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Mach doesn't have the bandwidth to field full flight of heavies/sentries. The extra dps comes from having both 25% dmg bonus and 25% rop bonus, aside from more lows for gyros/tes. Mach has 7 lows and 5 mids, for 12 total, Vargur has 5 lows and 6 mids, for 11 total. Marauders don't get the extra slot of faction/pirate BS. Vargur can have fitting problems with dmg rigs even with autos, at less than max rig skills. Rig is a poor way to compensate for half of one fewer gyro anyway.

Posted - 2011.05.31 15:52:00 - [15]

 

Originally by: Thleffs

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Originally by: Goose99

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Originally by: McRoll

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Yep, if you dont try to squeeze arty on there everything fits perfectly fine. Were you trying to fit an XL booster on it? A large faction or cheap complex is enough for everything.

Originally by: JackStraw56

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Vargur is good but Machariel is better. It can tank level 4s without issue, is faster than the Vargur and does more DPS. The Vargur shield boost bonus is nice but not necessary to tank level 4 missions.

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The ability to salvage on the go (killing while looting and salvaging) nets you way more isk/h than 2 minutes faster completion times. Also, those more DPS are paper DPS, they come mainly from drones as stated above and you need to factor in travel time of heavies or the immobility of sentries.

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Mach doesn't have the bandwidth to field full flight of heavies/sentries. The extra dps comes from having both 25% dmg bonus and 25% rop bonus, aside from more lows for gyros/tes. Mach has 7 lows and 5 mids, for 12 total, Vargur has 5 lows and 6 mids, for 11 total. Marauders don't get the extra slot of faction/pirate BS. Vargur can have fitting problems with dmg rigs even with autos, at less than max rig skills. Rig is a poor way to compensate for half of one fewer gyro anyway.

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Man you really suck in giving advise , what fitting problems Vargur has is beyond my comprehension as for actual DPS it is very little behind Mach due to its awesome tracking bonus.Try to fly ships you are talking about.The name of the game is loot and salvage on the go as already stated and no Mach+Noctis can beat Vargur at it.

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Tracking is a non issue for autos. The only real factor affecting ac is falloff, where Mach with more te has the advantage. You don't loot. You blitz.

Btw, your new fit has no ab. Stop eft warrioring.

Posted - 2011.05.31 16:34:00 - [17]

 

Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 16:36:38

Originally by: Navaris Dreadblade

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Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 31/05/2011 16:25:21
Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 31/05/2011 16:17:34
Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 31/05/2011 16:13:55

Originally by: Goose99

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Tracking is a non issue for autos. The only real factor affecting ac is falloff, where Mach with more te has the advantage. You don't loot. You blitz.

Btw, your new fit has no ab. Stop eft warrioring.

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First, AB isn't required for most missions, especially if you're blitzing.

A Machariel has a extremely slight lead in dps, and it has nothing to do with falloff. The Vargur wins because it is a much more stable platform with better tracking, tank, and cap, and does all of it with an AB and using a lot less ammo.

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You don't "win" pve. Mach blitz missions faster due to it being faster and higher dps, on paper and applied. Its tank is inferior, but you either survive or you don't, and lvl4s don't require much tank to survive for gankboat. Preferring an overtank is your personal decision and doesn't make mission go any faster. It certainly doesn't "win" pve for you, this refers to the 2 billion isk in tanking mods the other guy posted.

Posted - 2011.05.31 16:51:00 - [19]

 

Ok then, since the subject isnt so clear, lets get some numbers. All lvl 5, no implants, T1 ammo.

Machariel core fitting:
[Machariel, pve]
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer
Tracking Enhancer
Tracking enhancer

Prop mod+ tank

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
whatever

Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I <-------can be changed to something else
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Thats 942 DPS

Varg, core fitting

[Vargur, New Setup 1]
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Domination Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer
Tracking Enhancer

Prop mod+ tank+ tracking computer

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
Salvager I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

Thats 876 DPS

The difference is 66 DPS with equal range. Now take into account that the Vargur provides a tracking boost resulting in better hits and that many people fly the Mach with Gallente BS at IV, which means slightly less range than Vargur. Suddenly the DPS advantage isnt that big.

You can of course modify the above Mach fitting by applying a Burst Aerator II. This would push it to impressive 1003 gun DPS. By doing so you would lose a bit of range and are left with 50 calibration points for the remaining 2 rig slots. This weakens the already unimpressive Mach tank even further, as you have less cap or less resists if you choose a cap injector.

This can already become a problem in certain NPC heavy missions- it is still manageable but sometimes you have to maintain range or pay attention to triggers. If the DPS advantage is worth the hassle is up to the individual. I for one prefer the more rounded approach of the Vargur because, as stated, I dont count every minute I gain while complete the missions and the DPS gain is not big enough for me to give up on salvage and the generally more comfortable way of missioning. Also, note that it makes sense to use faction ammo with the Vargur because of 4 guns, which shortens the DPS difference even further.

tl:dr: Vargur is the better allround package. Mach is only for people who absolutely want that little DPS advantage and are willing to pay for that with bad tank, no salvage option and more situation awareness.

Posted - 2011.05.31 17:11:00 - [21]

 

Edited by: McRoll on 31/05/2011 17:12:32
It fits easily with a large shield booster and faction AB. Alternatively you'd need a 1% PG implant if you want to use an x- large.
Edit: reload times are the same for both, so it doesnt make a difference in comparison.

Posted - 2011.05.31 17:21:00 - [23]

 

Edited by: McRoll on 31/05/2011 17:24:10

Originally by: Common Origin

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There's too much fuzzy math. You put t1 falloff rig on vargur and t2 falloff on Mach, then claim it has the same range. You put t2 dmg rig on Vargur and CCCs on Mach, then claim the dps gap is small. What's with BS lvl4? More people have BS lvl5 than Marauder lvl5. What's with tracking? TCs can be scripted in either range or tracking, not both, it provides not much of both unscripted. Not that tracking is ever an issue for ACs. Your obvious attempts to minimize the gank gap is transparent and condescending.

Vargur has more tank. There's nothing wrong with the overtanked playstyle, people have lives irl and want their boat to be alive when they get back. But there are tankier ships for them. This is why there are so many Machs running around mission hubs those days, but not many Vargurs. Most people gravitate towards 2 extremes of gankism and tankism, instead of staying in the middle.

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1)Calibration points. Check them out.
2)Learn to read. I included the burst aerator rig in my explanation below and why it is questionable. I also stated that you can switch the CCC's to something else if you wish, but you'd be left with really bad cap.
3)Whats with tracking? The Varg uses a range script by default because it provides a tracking bonus of the ships bonuses. And it helps cleaning frigs in close proximity where you'd need to rely on drones otherwise.
4)You mean more people have 2 BS to lvl V than marauders to IV? (and having Gallente BS V in the state of hybrid weapons right now is questionable)I wouldnt sign that.

Posted - 2011.05.31 17:29:00 - [25]

 

Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:31:58

Originally by: McRoll

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Edited by: McRoll on 31/05/2011 17:24:10

Originally by: Common Origin

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There's too much fuzzy math. You put t1 falloff rig on vargur and t2 falloff on Mach, then claim it has the same range. You put t2 dmg rig on Vargur and CCCs on Mach, then claim the dps gap is small. What's with BS lvl4? More people have BS lvl5 than Marauder lvl5. What's with tracking? TCs can be scripted in either range or tracking, not both, it provides not much of both unscripted. Not that tracking is ever an issue for ACs. Your obvious attempts to minimize the gank gap is transparent and condescending.

Vargur has more tank. There's nothing wrong with the overtanked playstyle, people have lives irl and want their boat to be alive when they get back. But there are tankier ships for them. This is why there are so many Machs running around mission hubs those days, but not many Vargurs. Most people gravitate towards 2 extremes of gankism and tankism, instead of staying in the middle.

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1)Calibration points. Check them out.
2)Learn to read. I included the burst aerator rig in my explanation below and why it is questionable. I also stated that you can switch the CCC's to something else if you wish, but you'd be left with really bad cap.
3)Whats with tracking? The Varg uses a range script by default because it provides a tracking bonus of the ships bonuses. And it helps cleaning frigs in close proximity where you'd need to rely on drones otherwise.
4)You mean more people have 2 BS to lvl V than marauders to IV? (and having Gallente BS V in the state of hybrid weapons right now is questionable)I wouldnt sign that.

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There's plenty calibration to fit the same t2 dmg rig if you don't put in the CCCs whose benefits somehow didn't make way into your fuzzy math. Mach is much faster, 3 tes provide around 75km falloff, and the distance can be closed quickly, especially since ab would be permaran to alleviate incoming dmg anyway. Btw, you do not need hybrids for BS lvl5. In any case, blasters Vindis are by far the best at farming incursion vanguards. I don't know why you guys are still running missions with the chump change payment it gives, but that's getting off topic.

Posted - 2011.05.31 17:36:00 - [27]

 

Originally by: McRoll

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You are right, forgot that. Well, it means that the Mach has to reload more often in addition to the need of spending more ammunition.

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Reload matters very little for acs, the guns contain a lot of ammo. The 10 sec timer is much more significant for something like Tengu, which gets the same 3 sec rop, but hml carries far less ammo. In any case, Rop gain does not change the dmg dealt between periods per 10 sec reload. In Mach's case, dmg dealt per 10 sec reload is higher than Vargur.

Posted - 2011.05.31 17:55:00 - [29]

 

Edited by: Evil Stare on 31/05/2011 17:59:33

Originally by: Newbie Ned

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Seen this argument too often. My take (having flown both) is:

Mach does a little more dps so slightly quicker completion times and is more fun to fly.

Vargur can loot/salvage as you shoot so no extra time (except to sort/reprocess/sell the loot/salvage) which more than makes up for completion times, so marginally better isk/hr (no evidence, personal feeling).

Overall there is so little between the 2 that there is no difference, pick whichever you prefer.

As an aside you don't need a Gist X-large, a med SB is fine for lvl 4s. Some say you don't need an AB but as you have plenty of tank on both I always use one so that I can decrease the effect of falloff but I don't emoforumrage if someone doesn't want to!

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Wish more people would make posts like this. Tells is how he see's it. Doesn't proclaim to be an expert or assert his info as fact. 9 out of 10 stars + 1 cookie.

Basicly what he said here. I have a mach and a varg and never fly the varg because the mach is more fun. I see lots of fits with 4 gyro's and 3 te's but i tend to run 3 gyro's 3 te's and a signamp for more lock range. The sigamp is really most helpful in missions like AE4 bonus room where the extra lock range is handy.