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Mina Sulva'r
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.30 01:36:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mina Sulva''r on 30/05/2011 01:40:50
I have a question for the Dev's and maybe any players with direct experience.

I updated my Nvidia drives today and decided to browse thru the settings. And I stopped at the stereoscopic 3D setting (which I knew my card had) and decided to check what games supported stereo 3D. Low and behold there was EVE online. But it only had a "fair"* rating for compatibility. BTW, stereoscopic 3D is the one that uses the glasses, and the quality of some of the higher priced ones in the games that support it are jaw-dropping.

So, I guess my 1st question would be to any players that are using or have used the stereo-glasses and what was their experience. Oh and Im only looking for opinions on how they and EVE performed, I dont want your opinion on what it was like 10-15 years ago in other games, mainly because I already know...they suk'd.

The 2nd question is to the Dev's. Are there any future plans to support stereo 3D? Or to at least get EVE's rating above "fair"?
Maybe this new UI you guys built is more 3D friendly? At least tell me you had 3D in mind when you redesigned it?


From what I can tell Nvidia rates from- Not Recommended, Fair, Good, Excellent, 3D Ready. According to those ratings EVE ranks right there with...well some crappy titles.

*Nvidia list EVE's issues with the 3D as, "Selection and interaction icons are 2D" "Some objects render at wrong depth".





Feel free to troll, or make unrelated Avatar comments.

Bane Loppknow
Pel Industries
Posted - 2011.05.30 02:02:00 - [2]
 

I'd rather see CCP put their effort into more productive things. Until 'they' come up with Star Trek-esque holograms, 3D is and always will be a gimmick.

Enraged Stoat
Posted - 2011.05.30 03:59:00 - [3]
 

I once tried Eve in anaglyph 3d - there are free drivers available you can install that provide a hotkey to enable/disable anaglyph mode (google iz3d). They work with any directx compatible game.

It is pretty good, with tactical overlay up it's easier/quicker to determine where people are in relation to you (near/far) without having to spin a little. I would probably play in 3d that was less of an eye-ache than anaglyph!

But the rating is correct, "fair". A little work would probably improve that rating.

Mina Sulva'r
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.30 04:16:00 - [4]
 

Hmm, but you havent tried it with the glasses?
These things...
Anyone?

I know its a little early in the morning for a CCP Dev response, but so far no one has given these or one of the other types a try?

I was really hoping one of the Devs could comment on the new UI and if its optimized for stereo-3D, before I drop some money on them...

Enraged Stoat
Posted - 2011.05.30 04:31:00 - [5]
 

Not those glasses no. Whether you use anaglyph or lens shutters or polarized light the effect is the same - each eye sees a slightly different rendering of the scene making you see it in 3d. The only difference is the clarity of the technology. Anaglyph sucks, 120hz shuttered is perfect. Try anaglyph as a cheap test - if you like what you see (hehe - look past the colour induced eye-ache to what 3d is there) then go for the fancy glasses.

voiddragon
Posted - 2011.05.30 05:15:00 - [6]
 

I think the majority of gamers haven't really looked at 3D graphics, so I doubt there is much demand for it. I can never see myself buying any 3D technology.

However, there is another issue. I remember reading that someone with another 3D tech was playing EVE Online and constantly refocusing your eyes between space, your ship and text will strain them. So... I can't see it being well received either amongst the people who do play EVE and own 3D graphic hardware.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.05.30 05:34:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: voiddragon
I think the majority of gamers haven't really looked at 3D graphics, so I doubt there is much demand for it. I can never see myself buying any 3D technology.

However, there is another issue. I remember reading that someone with another 3D tech was playing EVE Online and constantly refocusing your eyes between space, your ship and text will strain them. So... I can't see it being well received either amongst the people who do play EVE and own 3D graphic hardware.


I know right? that's why I never bought anything past the snes. Those wierd 64-bit 3D graphics that nintendo came out are just a fad. real gaming play in 2d. lol, like anyone really thinks the playstation will catch on. hah

Astroka
Posted - 2011.05.30 05:39:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: voiddragon
I think the majority of gamers haven't really looked at 3D graphics, so I doubt there is much demand for it. I can never see myself buying any 3D technology.

However, there is another issue. I remember reading that someone with another 3D tech was playing EVE Online and constantly refocusing your eyes between space, your ship and text will strain them. So... I can't see it being well received either amongst the people who do play EVE and own 3D graphic hardware.


I know right? that's why I never bought anything past the snes. Those wierd 64-bit 3D graphics that nintendo came out are just a fad. real gaming play in 2d. lol, like anyone really thinks the playstation will catch on. hah

3D as in the kind you wear those funky glasses at the movies for, genius.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.30 05:53:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/05/2011 05:55:02

Current 3D technology gives too many people literal headaches.
As long as the brain and eyes constantly fight the urge to keep focus and convergence linked (which is impossible with a flat display surface and 3D glasses), you will keep finding it uncomfortable, even if you sort of get used to it.

Current 3D is at best a gimmick anyway, your brain already does a much better job at converting moving 2D into 3D directly without the need of additional hardware.
At most, what I'd like would be that kind of 3D which merely uses the 2D surface as a "window", the problem being it needs to track your head position, and it only works for a single user, not multiple users (example).

Call me back when you have high resolution, non-flickering, full colour, REAL 3D displays.
Alternatively, when you can get a screen that can track several people's heads individually and display separate images for each of them.

Astroka
Posted - 2011.05.30 05:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 30/05/2011 05:55:02

Current 3D technology gives too many people literal headaches.
As long as the brain and eyes constantly fight the urge to keep focus and convergence linked (which is impossible with a flat display surface and 3D glasses), you will keep finding it uncomfortable, even if you sort of get used to it.

Current 3D is at best a gimmick anyway, your brain already does a much better job at converting moving 2D into 3D directly without the need of additional hardware.
At most, what I'd like would be that kind of 3D which merely uses the 2D surface as a "window", the problem being it needs to track your head position, and it only works for a single user, not multiple users (example).

Call me back when you have high resolution, non-flickering, full colour, REAL 3D displays.
Alternatively, when you can get a screen that can track several people's heads individually and display separate images for each of them.

Just to add to this, an article I particularly enjoyed.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.30 06:04:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/05/2011 06:12:46

Originally by: Astroka
Just to add to this, an article I particularly enjoyed.

THIS and THIS is also interesting (bleh at initial advertising, but worth the watch to the end, especially for the first).
Obviously, we're not "there" yet, but slowly getting closer.

Astroka
Posted - 2011.05.30 06:17:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 30/05/2011 06:12:46

Originally by: Astroka
Just to add to this, an article I particularly enjoyed.

THIS and THIS is also interesting (bleh at initial advertising, but worth the watch to the end, especially for the first).
Obviously, we're not "there" yet, but slowly getting closer.

Things could get interesting in 2012.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.30 06:30:00 - [13]
 

Call me old-fashioned, but I haven't played anything in 3D yet. I'll ask around about the plans for 3D support in EVE, though.


Bane Loppknow
Pel Industries
Posted - 2011.05.30 06:55:00 - [14]
 

I suppose I should add that I own a 3DS and intend on buying the remake of Ocarina of Time fairly soon. Anyway, the only 3D game I've played so far is Pilotwings Resort, which is pretty cool, but I can't stand the 3D for more than a few minutes at a time, so I toggle it off. Maybe it's my funky eyesight, but it's just a lot easier for me to look at a 2D image and see it as reality. I don't really get headaches from it, but I just find it easier to deal with 2D, if that makes any sense.

It's why I hate this current 3D trend at the movies. I despise paying 10 extra bucks for something I don't want, but a lot of times the 3D showings are the only times that work for everyone that wants to go, so it's that or pass entirely. I can't wait for this trend to die out.

Astroka
Posted - 2011.05.30 07:10:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Bane Loppknow
I suppose I should add that I own a 3DS and intend on buying the remake of Ocarina of Time fairly soon. Anyway, the only 3D game I've played so far is Pilotwings Resort, which is pretty cool, but I can't stand the 3D for more than a few minutes at a time, so I toggle it off. Maybe it's my funky eyesight, but it's just a lot easier for me to look at a 2D image and see it as reality. I don't really get headaches from it, but I just find it easier to deal with 2D, if that makes any sense.

It's why I hate this current 3D trend at the movies. I despise paying 10 extra bucks for something I don't want, but a lot of times the 3D showings are the only times that work for everyone that wants to go, so it's that or pass entirely. I can't wait for this trend to die out.

Exactly why I hate 3D. Eyestrain, headache, the glasses at movies darken the image (it's like watching a movie while wearing sunglasses), extra cost. Just not worth it.

ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.30 07:52:00 - [16]
 

Also red crosses and brackets in 3D are still only kinda looking red crossy/bracketish. Razz

Doshan Ri
Posted - 2011.05.30 07:55:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Doshan Ri on 30/05/2011 08:02:34
I've used the Nvidia glasses and frankly I wouldn't spend the money on them. I also think the technology is a gimmick at this point and the money spent would be better used on other hardware upgrades. They are really nothing more than a rehash of old tech like the glasses you used to get from Canopus with their old 3dfx VooDoo cards. Of course I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that Nvidia bought out the remnants of 3dfx. I've also built some gaming systems for several customers who are into flight simulators using the TrackIR hardware and was impressed with them but the setup can be a pain. A nice video(commercial) for it can be found here that shows off the system in ARMA2. I like this particular video as it show both air and ground combat in the same video, but there are literally hundreds of videos on youtube showing off the trackir hardware in different games.

Quite frankly, due to the huge distances involved, I don't think EVE would benefit from either system and would rather see CCP put their effort into improving the game in other ways. Dust514 on the other hand would benefit from them greatly I think, especially the motion tracking technology.


ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.30 08:03:00 - [18]
 

Exactly.

3D is basically only a gimmick that barely enhances FPS, racing games or flight simulators.
In everything else it just introduces confusion and at the current tech level eyestrain and headaches.

The same as in movies BTW. Some intelligent directors have decided against 3D version of their movies because it actually detracts more than anything.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.05.30 08:31:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Daedalus II on 30/05/2011 08:34:21
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 30/05/2011 05:55:02

Current 3D technology gives too many people literal headaches.
As long as the brain and eyes constantly fight the urge to keep focus and convergence linked (which is impossible with a flat display surface and 3D glasses), you will keep finding it uncomfortable, even if you sort of get used to it.

Current 3D is at best a gimmick anyway, your brain already does a much better job at converting moving 2D into 3D directly without the need of additional hardware.
At most, what I'd like would be that kind of 3D which merely uses the 2D surface as a "window", the problem being it needs to track your head position, and it only works for a single user, not multiple users (example).

Call me back when you have high resolution, non-flickering, full colour, REAL 3D displays.
Alternatively, when you can get a screen that can track several people's heads individually and display separate images for each of them.

Talk for yourself. I have a 3D screen with 3D glasses and I love it. You haven't played assassins creed or GTA 4 before you've played it in 3D. With the correct settings it's totally awesome, like looking into a doll house of death.

Although I think a lot of people who complain about the 3D are those that don't understand how to set it up, both with the depth, but more importantly the eye distance (convergence), to get the really good 3D experience and not just the gimmicky Avatar experience. I think a lot of the people who trashes 3D have seen it on some event once with crappy settings under Fluorescent Lighting and then proceed to spew their hatred around. I on the other hand use it daily in my gaming.

I actually have a hard time playing shooter games without 3D now. The 3D gives such a help to the brain to determine which depth stuff is at, which I find more and more helpful. As shooters get more detailed the brain has to process more and more visual input and determine at what depth it is. With 3D I have a definite advantage.

Having said that, EVE sucks in 3D. As ships are typically far away from you the overlay (which is in screen depth) is always totally wrong. Planets have weird depth and the skybox is always shallower than all other ships, stations and planets making the whole thing messed up. And with the last update the game totally craps out for me when I activate 3D, but that might be the drivers as I haven't updated them for a month or two. The only time EVE looks good in 3D is when docked in a station spinning your ship.

Jess Tantalus
Posted - 2011.05.30 08:38:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Jess Tantalus on 30/05/2011 08:42:33
Tbh with the latest patch CCP greatly improved 3D Vision, even though it went quite unnoticed and unannounced. I suppose they or just not quite ready to officially support it.
With the release of incursions there were some serious issues, which well justified it's fair rating. Among other things it only worked in windowed mode (at least for me) and then it would reset after every jump and in the character creator only a single image would render while the second remained white.

Now eve works properly in both windowed and fullscreen mode and it works fair in the character creator. Most important issue remains the GUI which is not rendered in 3D but at screen dept. Judging from the announcements of the new Carbon '3D' GUI they seem to be working on that.

Besides that, and especially when hiding all the GUI, the sight of a bunch of capitals outside a station in 3D is really awesome :)

Jess Tantalus
Posted - 2011.05.30 08:42:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II


Having said that, EVE sucks in 3D. As ships are typically far away from you the overlay (which is in screen depth) is always totally wrong. Planets have weird depth and the skybox is always shallower than all other ships, stations and planets making the whole thing messed up. And with the last update the game totally craps out for me when I activate 3D, but that might be the drivers as I haven't updated them for a month or two. The only time EVE looks good in 3D is when docked in a station spinning your ship.


For me stations work fine and give a lot more depth to the scene. (otherwise it's just empty space mostly).

mkint
Posted - 2011.05.30 08:47:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: CCP Spitfire
Call me old-fashioned, but I haven't played anything in 3D yet. I'll ask around about the plans for 3D support in EVE, though.



Personally I don't think any implementation would be that great for EVE. From a programming side you'd have to decide what UI aspects stay on the 2D glass plane (only 1 object in stereoscope) and what goes 3D. And where you have both 2D and 3D elements, the mouse cursor either has to be one or the other, and there's no convenient way to move the mouse in 3D without some kind of ground landscape for it to follow (suppose it could follow the tactical overlay, which could be cool if it was seriously improved enough to be useful). That would mean a 2D mouse cursor clicking on 2D brackets which would just sit somewhere vaguely in front of the 3D models. And I'm pretty sure even some aspects of the tactical overlay aren't really 3D, but just faked (and have been bugged on my system for a long time... it's getting really annoying already.)
IMO, EVE does not lend itself to 3D glasses, without some extremely major UI overhauls that would end up being tacky and inefficient for actual gameplay.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.05.30 08:48:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jess Tantalus
Originally by: Daedalus II


Having said that, EVE sucks in 3D. As ships are typically far away from you the overlay (which is in screen depth) is always totally wrong. Planets have weird depth and the skybox is always shallower than all other ships, stations and planets making the whole thing messed up. And with the last update the game totally craps out for me when I activate 3D, but that might be the drivers as I haven't updated them for a month or two. The only time EVE looks good in 3D is when docked in a station spinning your ship.


For me stations work fine and give a lot more depth to the scene. (otherwise it's just empty space mostly).

Well I guess I have to update my drivers so I can get it to work again (as it is now everything turns white when I turn it on). But I doubt they have fixed the skybox at wrong depth, but I'll wait with saying anything until I've gotten it to work again.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.05.30 08:58:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: mkint
Originally by: CCP Spitfire
Call me old-fashioned, but I haven't played anything in 3D yet. I'll ask around about the plans for 3D support in EVE, though.



Personally I don't think any implementation would be that great for EVE. From a programming side you'd have to decide what UI aspects stay on the 2D glass plane (only 1 object in stereoscope) and what goes 3D. And where you have both 2D and 3D elements, the mouse cursor either has to be one or the other, and there's no convenient way to move the mouse in 3D without some kind of ground landscape for it to follow (suppose it could follow the tactical overlay, which could be cool if it was seriously improved enough to be useful). That would mean a 2D mouse cursor clicking on 2D brackets which would just sit somewhere vaguely in front of the 3D models. And I'm pretty sure even some aspects of the tactical overlay aren't really 3D, but just faked (and have been bugged on my system for a long time... it's getting really annoying already.)
IMO, EVE does not lend itself to 3D glasses, without some extremely major UI overhauls that would end up being tacky and inefficient for actual gameplay.

I'm sorry to say that I agree with this. I'm sure you could get great 3D visuals out of EVE, but it would not make the gaming experience any better. The depths are too great in EVE and you're too reliant on the HUD. The best looking 3D games are those with the least amount of HUD, preferably none at all, and with no mouse pointer.

Some games work with a mouse pointer and HUD, such as Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2, but the available depth in those games are *highly* restricted compared to EVE. Supreme Commander for example falls in the same trap as EVE, while it works acceptably when zoomed in, everything gets very messy when you zoom out and get into the strategic icon view (with icons at screen depth).

CCP Sharkbait

Posted - 2011.05.30 16:46:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Jess Tantalus
Edited by: Jess Tantalus on 30/05/2011 08:42:33
Tbh with the latest patch CCP greatly improved 3D Vision, even though it went quite unnoticed and unannounced. I suppose they or just not quite ready to officially support it.


This is partly true. Although we haven't been making direct improvements, people have been testing the 3D vision internally and the odd fix has been applied to keep the 3D vision working.

I believe the reason the 3D vision has only had a fair rating from Nvidia was basically because our UI didn't really support it. Most components got rendered at a 0 depth and that doesn't work with 3D. To get around this issue the UI framework needed major work and that work has been done and is being released to Tranquility tomorrow.

We have been talking about officially supporting the 3D vision for some time and hopefully we will be able to support it this summer, by the end of the year at the latest. We still have a bit of work to get done but Nvidia will be helping us and somehow we will get it done. Once the new UI framework is released, i don't think it will require much resources to support.

Once i have more information and maybe a time line, i will either post the info or try to talk someone into doing a dev blog about it.

Hesperius
Posted - 2011.05.30 17:22:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Current 3D is at best a gimmick anyway

Thats all that really needs to be said.
Quote:
(example).

Given how long ago that guy did that I'm kinda disappointed I haven't seen a game done with that.

Mina Sulva'r
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.30 17:27:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: CCP Sharkbait

This is partly true. Although we haven't been making direct improvements, people have been testing the 3D vision internally and the odd fix has been applied to keep the 3D vision working.

I believe the reason the 3D vision has only had a fair rating from Nvidia was basically because our UI didn't really support it. Most components got rendered at a 0 depth and that doesn't work with 3D. To get around this issue the UI framework needed major work and that work has been done and is being released to Tranquility tomorrow.

We have been talking about officially supporting the 3D vision for some time and hopefully we will be able to support it this summer, by the end of the year at the latest. We still have a bit of work to get done but Nvidia will be helping us and somehow we will get it done. Once the new UI framework is released, i don't think it will require much resources to support.

Once i have more information and maybe a time line, i will either post the info or try to talk someone into doing a dev blog about it.


SEX!

uhh, I mean KILLER!!

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.05.30 21:37:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: CCP Sharkbait

We have been talking about officially supporting the 3D vision for some time and hopefully we will be able to support it this summer, by the end of the year at the latest. We still have a bit of work to get done but Nvidia will be helping us and somehow we will get it done. Once the new UI framework is released, i don't think it will require much resources to support.


If you do decide to officially support it, PLEASE don't lock the controls like Crysis 2 does. I hate not being able to set the 3D depth as I like it. Thanks Smile

Rixiu
The Inuits
Posted - 2011.05.30 21:54:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Hesperius

(example).

Given how long ago that guy did that I'm kinda disappointed I haven't seen a game done with that.


That's not "3D", only 2D and the reason for it not having been used for anything is because outside youtube it is pointless.

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.05.30 22:25:00 - [30]
 

Stereo 3d is a dead ebd - eventually games will be played on a holographic interface.


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