open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked nerf the tengu, imbalance in the t3s
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

Author Topic

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.29 17:48:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Swynet
Let me help ya once again: [url=]http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Avoiding_scan_probes"]read it all[/url]

Short: sign rad/scan res

What?


From the link you provided: "Target size is calculated as sig radius / sensor strength. The smaller your ship's target size, the harder it is for people to probe you down."

Yo, read your own links.


Embarassed yes

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.05.29 18:36:00 - [62]
 

Shoosh! No-one is going to nerf my Tengu! Mad

lordlulzs
Posted - 2011.05.29 19:08:00 - [63]
 

Well golly. I should hurry up and sell alot of tengu chars.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.05.29 19:35:00 - [64]
 

Only Tengu change needed is removal of a bit of grid from the subsystem that allows the 100mn fit with nary a sacrifice needed.

Beyond that the Legion needs an overhaul which is generally acknowledged by anyone who has tried to make that silly thing work.

Hybrid revamp will probably push the Proteus through the roof from its already fairly good position, but still slated as Soon™ so no hurry.

Loki is for T3s what the Thrasher is for Destroyers, the poster-child for what they should be. Multiple defined roles possible with numerous options .. best boat in Eve in my opinion but hard to master.

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.05.29 20:25:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Kail Storm on 29/05/2011 20:37:11
Every time a ship that previously was good or great or even considered carebear only in begning [Drake,Tengu] when used properly and decimates by a elite group like PL its a crying person about them getting nerfed, even though said ship in past wasnt usable in combat.

Same damned song from whinny babies over and over, "Drake is so OP it needs nerf NOW" when it hadnt changed in 2 years and was fine then, All the sudden groups decide not to use RR BS`s because how cheap and easy to use it was [AK47] and pow its actually Great in combat and then bla bla blah kill the "Drake its way OP"

Same here Tengu has been fine for 2 years now and because 1 group learned to dominate with it you want a nerf? That is BS.

We also need to Nerf Abby`s, Machs, Maels, Drams, Cynabals, Vagas, Zealots etc etc.

Every ship can be great, in fact PL made the Rokh the other night look great, so are you gonna want a Rokh nerf now?

MM and plenty of others tried the Tengu and got ****d plain and simple.

The only reason to Nerf a ship is because its so OP that it has no natural predators or it cant be beat using other fleet combo`s and the Tengu while great can be countered pretty well, Kill its Logi and its dead, where as other ships its easier to kill the actual combat ship.

Seriously if we listened to people like you the Drake would be Nerf`d to hell and then what? It already is slow, has lower DPS than most BC`s has Delayed DMG and a masive sig radius, they only really shine because they so cheap and easy to train for+MAssive Tanks for a BC. Tengu is nothing But super Drake.

Delayed DMG in Fleet is massive disadvantage, where you have 1400 arty`s hitting for 10-14k DMG per ship so 30 can kill almost anything at range, when used right its just as lethal.

The other T3`s dont have as much of a Fleet role but they do damned good, Webbing Loki with huge Alpha, HUGE Tank and close Gank Prot and Huge Tank and great sniper/AHAC Legion or better a Booster Legion, everything has its roles.

PL wins in T-Cats because they are highly organized and disciplined, you cold make almost any ship look as good if used all in groups with no mixing except for exact support that is part of plan.

I cant link KM`s but look how many MM Tengu` Fleets lost badly because they didnt have proper fleet comp etc.

The Abby kills the most by far a 160k EHP Beast with Huge Resists and does 1k DPS, can carry Med ECM+Warrior`s and can chang ammo instantly so range fighting is seamless.

So keep crying because you cant use them but its fine as is. Some need more Sub choices but thats it.

If peeps flew all zalot style Ahac Legions they would Pwn face, 3x the tank [as much as Tengu] Over sized AB as fast as MWD but no sig penalty, you could orbit at 10km@ 1k M/s against Maels it would demolish them, with 550 DPS [same as basic Tengu] Its just Zealots are so good its not worth it. The Thundercat follows the basic consept of taking missile range and speed from the Cerb but having 3x the tank, so really its pretty even.

What ever any group uses, hell evoke uses Mega`s still and kicks ass. Point is Good Piloting Great FC and EVERYONE IN CALLED FOR SHIP and most ships look OP.

Good 1400/Mael Great
Good Hellcat Great
Good Drake Good
Good Tengu Great

But especially in High lag Missiles are poor compared to Insta hitting Arty etc. Because you waste whole volleys unless you are very good which PL is, So stop paper fighting and show me KM`s of other groups outnumbered where the Tengu Dominated so bad there was no "Rock paper Scissors.

And lastly for years Caldari had nothing to use in fleets, in serious Corps if you brought missile ships they didnt want you, so let them have 2 Ships used in fleet, seriously.

Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
Posted - 2011.05.29 21:07:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Korg Tronix on 29/05/2011 21:09:18
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Only Tengu change needed is removal of a bit of grid from the subsystem that allows the 100mn fit with nary a sacrifice needed.

Beyond that the Legion needs an overhaul which is generally acknowledged by anyone who has tried to make that silly thing work.

Hybrid revamp will probably push the Proteus through the roof from its already fairly good position, but still slated as Soon™ so no hurry.

Loki is for T3s what the Thrasher is for Destroyers, the poster-child for what they should be. Multiple defined roles possible with numerous options .. best boat in Eve in my opinion but hard to master.


The 100mn Tengu takes more sacrifice in the sense of fitting mods than the 100mn Brick Legion does


Also Kail good luck orbiting anyone with an oversized AB on at 10km in a Legion

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.05.29 23:19:00 - [67]
 

It is actually pretty easy, since normally the AB tengu will have "mods off in one cycle"

instead of orbiting in a circle, you orbit like an oval ball. zoom one way with AB on, when its off, the tengu only takes less then 10 seconds to complete a turn, at max speed. then you cycle another AB.

TLDR: Tengu is agile . just dont perma run the aB

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.30 01:21:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Tenzeck
Edited by: Tenzeck on 29/05/2011 17:42:47
Originally by: Swynet
So people blah blahing about improbable Tengus are dumbs, every one of them has 160m rad and base scan res over 240 witch makes them all improbable


Edit: As someone pointed out below, I said this backwards. I should have said Sensor Strength vs Sig Radius - Scan Resolution has nothing to do with it. I'll leave the original post in tact so the rest of the thread makes sense, but I don't want to confuse people with incorrect information. The underlined line is still correct.

It's sensor strength vs. scan resolution. Sig radius has nothing to do with it.

You need to get your sensor strength pretty high to be unprobeable.



And yet again you have no idea what you're talking about. It's:

(Sig Radius / Sensor strength) < 1.08

So, you could have a gravimetric strength as low as, say, 140, and still be unprobeable! (150/140 = 1,071).

Oh, and its base sig rad is 150, not 160 -- another thing you were wrong about.

Tenzeck
Posted - 2011.05.30 02:44:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Tenzeck on 30/05/2011 03:00:55
Edited by: Tenzeck on 30/05/2011 02:53:24
Originally by: Ranka Mei
And yet again you have no idea what you're talking about. It's:

(Sig Radius / Sensor strength) < 1.08

So, you could have a gravimetric strength as low as, say, 140, and still be unprobeable! (150/140 = 1,071).

Oh, and its base sig rad is 150, not 160 -- another thing you were wrong about.


Whoa. What? that doesn't disagree with what I said. I am not sure if that was meant as a response to me or if you quoted the wrong person.

You should go back and read my post again. Are you possibly mistaking my sentence for some kind of mathematical formula? If you read the whole sentence I think the context is obvious and won't allow you to make that mistake.

And are you really talking about a 140 sensor strength and then attacking me for using the words "pretty high" to describe that? Come on.

Go back and tell me exactly what part of my post disagrees with what you've just said. What I am seeing is you calling me an idiot and then repeating what I said in your own words.

Also, notice the part about the 160 sig radius was inside quotes from someone else. I didn't say that.



Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.30 03:01:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Tenzeck
Originally by: Ranka Mei
And yet again you have no idea what you're talking about. It's:

(Sig Radius / Sensor strength) < 1.08

So, you could have a gravimetric strength as low as, say, 140, and still be unprobeable! (150/140 = 1,071).

Oh, and its base sig rad is 150, not 160 -- another thing you were wrong about.


Whoa. What? that doesn't disagree with what I said. I am not sure if that was meant as a response to me or if you quoted the wrong person.

You should go back and read my post again. Are you possibly mistaking my sentence for some kind of mathematical formula? If you read the whole sentence I think the context is obvious and won't allow you to make that mistake.

Go back and tell me exactly what part of my post disagrees with what you've just said. What I am seeing is you calling me an idiot and then repeating what I said in your own words.



That would be the part where you said:

Originally by: Tenzeck


It's sensor strength vs. scan resolution. Sig radius has nothing to do with it.


fgft Athonille
Posted - 2011.05.30 03:03:00 - [71]
 

most used ship in the alliance tournament, tengu with 33 fielded.

4 loki
6 proteus
0 legion

now i can see which of the t3 is best for pvp. -1 less launcher all configurations

Tenzeck
Posted - 2011.05.30 03:07:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Tenzeck on 30/05/2011 03:16:16
Originally by: Ranka Mei
That would be the part where you said:

Originally by: Tenzeck


It's sensor strength vs. scan resolution. Sig radius has nothing to do with it.




Did you happen to notice that you quoted the part of that post that I made a few minutes later where I apologized for stating that backwards and corrected myself?

You really should read things that you quote from people before you comment on them. This is what you didn't bother to read:

Originally by: Tenzeck
Edit: As someone pointed out below, I said this backwards. I should have said Sensor Strength vs Sig Radius - Scan Resolution has nothing to do with it. I'll leave the original post in tact so the rest of the thread makes sense, but I don't want to confuse people with incorrect information. The underlined line is still correct.


Check the quote in your first post - it's right there. Apparently I failed in my goal not to confuse people.

Edit: Highlights italics and bold for the two sentences that would have answered your objection before you posted.


Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.05.30 04:38:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: fgft Athonille
most used ship in the alliance tournament, tengu with 33 fielded.

4 loki
6 proteus
0 legion

now i can see which of the t3 is best for pvp. -1 less launcher all configurations


Because nothing is more accurate in representing Tranquillity PVP like the alliance tournament.

The clue is that way Arrow

Go get it.....

fgft Athonille
Posted - 2011.05.30 04:57:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: fgft Athonille on 30/05/2011 04:57:44
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: fgft Athonille
most used ship in the alliance tournament, tengu with 33 fielded.

4 loki
6 proteus
0 legion

now i can see which of the t3 is best for pvp. -1 less launcher all configurations


Because nothing is more accurate in representing Tranquillity PVP like the alliance tournament.

The clue is that way Arrow

Go get it.....


are you mad im going to get your pwnmobile nerfed because its unbalanced

there there.

protip. they are also by far the best pvp t3 in tq too.

i could point out over 80 percent of the teams who fielded at least two tengus won.

Vizvig
Posted - 2011.05.30 06:06:00 - [75]
 

I never see proteus/legion blob, but i see tengu-blob frequently.

Also damage/range strong overpowered, noscan ability and EHP(dont forget shield regeneration) too.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.30 07:10:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Vizvig
I never see proteus/legion blob, but i see tengu-blob frequently.

Also damage/range strong overpowered, noscan ability and EHP(dont forget shield regeneration) too.

it isnt any more op than the usuall matar ships, nerf matar first if you want to nerf tengu

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.05.30 07:57:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: bartos100 on 30/05/2011 07:59:02
i think the legion needs a buff and the t3 production has to be looked at as atm the prize of t3's is controlled by tengu production

change the material needs for other t3's so that the prize of those drops and isn't high because of massive tengu production

in the last QEN the stats are clear

there are more tengu's then all other t3's together

source P26

Bossanova Widya
Posted - 2011.05.30 08:02:00 - [78]
 

I keep coming to hear to see what OP said next.. I came this time disappointed to find no more whinney ill informed nonsense... OP, we need moar input :)

fgft Athonille
Posted - 2011.05.30 09:52:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Vizvig
I never see proteus/legion blob, but i see tengu-blob frequently.

Also damage/range strong overpowered, noscan ability and EHP(dont forget shield regeneration) too.

it isnt any more op than the usuall matar ships, nerf matar first if you want to nerf tengu


so you think the tengu doesnt need a nerf because minmatar ships are more powerful. surely you arent talking about the loki.

the loki doesnt need a nerf as its incredibly gimped. falloff cripples its ability to do damage at range, so its only use is to be heavy tackler with long range webs. easily from 20 kilometers all the way to 113 kilometers, the loki begins to lose the advantage. and it needs to fit double the mods just to get a workable falloff.

having to fit double the damage mods, gyrostabs and tracking enhancers, to be doing absolutely pitful damage outside of 20 kilometers.

fgft Athonille
Posted - 2011.05.30 10:09:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: fgft Athonille on 30/05/2011 10:08:55
double

throbbinnoggin
Gallente
Eminent Domain
Posted - 2011.05.30 10:27:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: new fgft Athonille
none of the other t3 come remotely close to comparing with it in pve

This is obviously what your critique completely revolves around.

Bear in mind that EVE is a pvp game and as such, CCP doesn't balance ships around pve.

fgft Athonille
Posted - 2011.05.30 10:48:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: throbbinnoggin
Originally by: new fgft Athonille
none of the other t3 come remotely close to comparing with it in pve

This is obviously what your critique completely revolves around.

Bear in mind that EVE is a pvp game and as such, CCP doesn't balance ships around pve.


if only i made about five posts in this very thread talking about its role in pvp.

oh

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.30 11:11:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: fgft Athonille
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Vizvig
I never see proteus/legion blob, but i see tengu-blob frequently.

Also damage/range strong overpowered, noscan ability and EHP(dont forget shield regeneration) too.

it isnt any more op than the usuall matar ships, nerf matar first if you want to nerf tengu


so you think the tengu doesnt need a nerf because minmatar ships are more powerful. surely you arent talking about the loki.

the loki doesnt need a nerf as its incredibly gimped. falloff cripples its ability to do damage at range, so its only use is to be heavy tackler with long range webs. easily from 20 kilometers all the way to 113 kilometers, the loki begins to lose the advantage. and it needs to fit double the mods just to get a workable falloff.

having to fit double the damage mods, gyrostabs and tracking enhancers, to be doing absolutely pitful damage outside of 20 kilometers.


If there's something that should be nerfed about the tengu is his ability to fit an 100MN AB, nothing else directly but indirectly I think the fly time of Heavy missiles is somehow silly, dps it's ok don't touch it.

The issue with caldari boats is that either they are really terribad or really very good, I don't think they deserve to be severely nerfed just because silly people can't argue what's wrong, in the Tengu's case it's only his ability to hit at over 100 or 0 with max dps and mostly the ability to fit an 100MN AB witch makes it impossible to catch keep and burn has every other ship in the game.
A good pvp tengu pilot can brun almost everything if he's not jammed and even there he is 100% sure he can gtfo and come back later send two volleys at the falcon :"cya falcon"

throbbinnoggin
Gallente
Eminent Domain
Posted - 2011.05.30 11:16:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: fgft Athonille
Originally by: throbbinnoggin
Originally by: new fgft Athonille
none of the other t3 come remotely close to comparing with it in pve

This is obviously what your critique completely revolves around.

Bear in mind that EVE is a pvp game and as such, CCP doesn't balance ships around pve.


if only i made about five posts in this very thread talking about its role in pvp.

oh


Keep trying. This was your initial argument. The rest I have read, and is just you making excuses.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.05.30 12:39:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: fgft Athonille
Edited by: fgft Athonille on 30/05/2011 04:57:44
Originally by: Dray
Originally by: fgft Athonille
most used ship in the alliance tournament, tengu with 33 fielded.

4 loki
6 proteus
0 legion

now i can see which of the t3 is best for pvp. -1 less launcher all configurations


Because nothing is more accurate in representing Tranquillity PVP like the alliance tournament.

The clue is that way Arrow

Go get it.....


are you mad im going to get your pwnmobile nerfed because its unbalanced

there there.

protip. they are also by far the best pvp t3 in tq too.

i could point out over 80 percent of the teams who fielded at least two tengus won.


What he meant was it has nothing to do with real pvp in the wild. You're not allowed to disengage, there's no need for point, it's just people slugging it out to the end in voluntary pvp. There is a reason every lowsec dweller fears the cloaky Proteus boogyman, but not cloaky tengu. If you've ever been outside of highsec at all, you should already know that. I've been at both sides of the cloaky proteus gank, and once, unfortunately, in a tengu at the receiving end. Being locked down and a tengu, it evaporated. Btw, the lulz 100mn ab will only gimp you, not save you, you will be dead, period.

Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.30 15:59:00 - [86]
 

Each T3 ship has it's own purpose.

Tengu
Pro: Best PVE out of all T3 Cruisers
Con: Good luck trying PVP

Legion
Pro: Decent for PVP, good at Amarr PVE.
Con: Will struggle with non-Amarr PVE targets.

Loki
Pro: Cloaky Loki= a nasty surprise for you're target
Con: In terms of PVE, only useful for Incursions.

Proteus
Pro: Best PVP out of all T3 cruisers.
Con: One of the worst choices for PVE.


As you can see the T3s are fine. The Tengu and Proteus are more specialized ships where as the Loki and Legion allow for more variation.



Daenerys Fire Targaryen
Posted - 2011.05.30 16:10:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Hermann Fegelein
Each T3 ship has it's own purpose.

Tengu
Pro: Best PVE out of all T3 Cruisers
Con: Good luck trying PVP

Legion
Pro: Decent for PVP, good at Amarr PVE.
Con: Will struggle with non-Amarr PVE targets.

Loki
Pro: Cloaky Loki= a nasty surprise for you're target
Con: In terms of PVE, only useful for Incursions.

Proteus
Pro: Best PVP out of all T3 cruisers.
Con: One of the worst choices for PVE.


As you can see the T3s are fine. The Tengu and Proteus are more specialized ships where as the Loki and Legion allow for more variation.





Why the Tengu is the most used PVP ship then?
It's even the most used in the Alliance Tournament.

Proteus is a brick as what i heard, people use it for station games: aggress with another char, then undock proteus and melt the enemy, that's it (or get a perfect warp in point, so i don't think it's the best, it's just that it can deal good damage, but tengu and the others are more versatile). Am i wrong?

achoura
Posted - 2011.05.30 16:33:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Daenerys Fire Targaryen

Why the Tengu is the most used PVP ship then?
It's even the most used in the Alliance Tournament.



Missiles have the range the legion, proteus and loki all lack. Shield tanks are more powerful than armour tanks (active armour tanking has been pretty much dead for 3 years) and don't slow you down like plates/armour rigs. Perhaps more importantly it can actually be completely refit for different situations. T3 was meant to be like this, but ccp - true to form - was so worried of creating imbalance they increased the lokis agility, removed a turret from the legion while limiting both it's mids and the proteus.

Basically it's a cumulative thing, but the tengus escaped inept design and works they way t3 was supposed to be. The loki can field a similar tank, but less damage and range because it has to give up rig and low slots to counter it's crappy weight and speed. Armour rigs gimp the proteus, blasters are inferior to ac and armour rigs gimp it speed. All blaster ships suffer at the hands of armour rigs. Legion was once great, after loose a turret and some "tweaking" its mids are too limiting and it only really becomes effective when trying to solo a wh or as a super tanked sacrilege with 100mn ab.

T3 was great for the first week it was on the test server, until the other 3 got "improved" to "balance" them. After that only the tengu could be as effective in pve, probing, tanking, ganking and pvp in all regions of space. "Nerfing" it do not solve any of the problems surrounding the other 3 ships or their interaction with other mechanics - mostly rigs tbh - hence achieves nothing. Except making it as bad as the other 3 which would make the set complete.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.05.30 16:39:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: achoura
Originally by: Daenerys Fire Targaryen

Why the Tengu is the most used PVP ship then?
It's even the most used in the Alliance Tournament.



Missiles have the range the legion, proteus and loki all lack. Shield tanks are more powerful than armour tanks (active armour tanking has been pretty much dead for 3 years) and don't slow you down like plates/armour rigs. Perhaps more importantly it can actually be completely refit for different situations. T3 was meant to be like this, but ccp - true to form - was so worried of creating imbalance they increased the lokis agility, removed a turret from the legion while limiting both it's mids and the proteus.

Basically it's a cumulative thing, but the tengus escaped inept design and works they way t3 was supposed to be. The loki can field a similar tank, but less damage and range because it has to give up rig and low slots to counter it's crappy weight and speed. Armour rigs gimp the proteus, blasters are inferior to ac and armour rigs gimp it speed. All blaster ships suffer at the hands of armour rigs. Legion was once great, after loose a turret and some "tweaking" its mids are too limiting and it only really becomes effective when trying to solo a wh or as a super tanked sacrilege with 100mn ab.

T3 was great for the first week it was on the test server, until the other 3 got "improved" to "balance" them. After that only the tengu could be as effective in pve, probing, tanking, ganking and pvp in all regions of space. "Nerfing" it do not solve any of the problems surrounding the other 3 ships or their interaction with other mechanics - mostly rigs tbh - hence achieves nothing. Except making it as bad as the other 3 which would make the set complete.


Again, none of what you think makes tengu great at pvp, actually matters in real pvp. In blob, theres the brick alpha cheapboats out in null. In lowsec, there's the cloaky gank proteus. If conditions in Alliance Tournament actually exist in game, tengu would have a place in pvp, unfortunately it doesn't.

Vizvig
Posted - 2011.05.30 17:04:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Vizvig on 30/05/2011 17:04:53
Good example of tengu blob used by both sides
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9805737

Anyone try to show me other t3 blob.

Tengu tank and damage slots are different, good tank+good damage, not needed MVD usage => a lot of cap.

Proteus and legion superriority in damage disappear by necessity of strong tank, for it used low slots as well.
MVD is must have and it cut so necessary cap, without it not enough speed to engage target, without tank ship explodes before get in close to target, also without speed(armor rigs) same happening.

Loki is gimp btw.


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only