| Author |
Topic |
Krevnos |
Posted - 2011.05.21 14:12:00 - [ 61]
Fist off you trained the learning skills, gained the benefit from them, and then had the skill points returned to you. The problem is?
Second off you trained the connections skills; which you gained the benefit from. The skills became redundant due to a mechanics change and were thus replaced with similar skills. The points were returned to you and may be spent on the new skills, should you desire. The problem is?
There's only one type of player who whines more than an EvE veteran and that's an Irish EvE veteran.
I would recommend the following: Take a walk, stretch your legs, go admire the scenery (or the dirty streets of Dublin). It's not such a bad day out there, just a bit cloudy with the odd shower. Then come back when you've cleared your head. |
Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats |
Posted - 2011.05.21 15:14:00 - [ 62]
Sadly this is not contract law and you can't do squat. At least you got the SP back, CCP do far worse on a daily basis. |
Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2011.05.21 15:57:00 - [ 63]
 Originally by: Wetchaser1
You could be the writer because your over dramatizing a discussion.
TYVM. Originally by: Wetchaser1
Complaining here would do no good, im simply talking about what was and what is.
With all due respect, this, and every thread that comes up regarding the learning skills/removal of them/reimbursement (and now the freaking social skills) sounds like a whining/complaining thread. I wasn't necessarily directing the comment you quoted towards you because YOU do seem to understand what the benefit of them was. !spacer! In general, if people put any thought into the reimbursement you could come out way ahead. Even though the SP totals would be the same, placing those SP into skills you are spec'd against or otherwise slow to train provides a huge SP/HR boost allowing you to get far more out of those SP than you ever put in (even if you don't count the benefit you've had in the years of passively enjoying them). This is why I say people are complaining when there is nothing there to complain about. |
stoicfaux
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.05.21 16:49:00 - [ 64]
Originally by: Usagi Tsukino
With all due respect, this, and every thread that comes up regarding the learning skills/removal of them/reimbursement (and now the freaking social skills) sounds like a whining/complaining thread.
No. It just sounds like whining because of your insensitivity towards other people's views.  Some people have a zero-sum outlook on life, meaning in order for you to gain an advantage, someone else has to suffer a disadvantage. They see a "lowered barrier of entry" as an unfair, unearned advantage. It also, as the OP pointed out, invalidates the hard work, research and/or dedication of the folks who suffered to get where they were pre-patch. As a personal example, the agent changes will increase everyone's LP gains for little to no effort. This will most likely cut into my isk/LP conversion ratio which will make it harder for me to earn PLEX money. Personally, I'm not complaining about the agent changes. But if I had a zero-sum mentality/belief/viewpoint, than I can understand why people would be outraged by the "dumbing down" of the learning skills and agent changes. Being unable to understand someone's viewpoint doesn't give you the right to trivialize a person by calling them a whiner. Trivializing individuals by dismissing their culture and their views/beliefs out of hand and labeling them as just stupid/wrong/whiney is the first step to discrimination, which leads to oppression, and eventually attempted world domination. Next time, try to be more empathetic and understanding of your fellow man, either as a means to build bridges or as a means to better manipulate and oppress them. |
Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2011.05.21 19:24:00 - [ 65]
Originally by: stoicfaux
No. It just sounds like whining because of your insensitivity towards other people's views.
I have to be honest, that is likely a very accurate statement... Originally by: stoicfaux
Some people have a zero-sum outlook on life, meaning in order for you to gain an advantage, someone else has to suffer a disadvantage. They see a "lowered barrier of entry" as an unfair, unearned advantage. It also, as the OP pointed out, invalidates the hard work, research and/or dedication of the folks who suffered to get where they were pre-patch.
You had me till you used the word 'suffered'. Come on now. Originally by: stoicfaux
As a personal example, the agent changes will increase everyone's LP gains for little to no effort. This will most likely cut into my isk/LP conversion ratio which will make it harder for me to earn PLEX money.
You could also consider switching to a lesser used agent that offers something more expensive. Not all agents offer the same toys from the LP store. Originally by: stoicfaux
Personally, I'm not complaining about the agent changes. But if I had a zero-sum mentality/belief/viewpoint, than I can understand why people would be outraged by the "dumbing down" of the learning skills and agent changes.
The social skills is even a worse example since the skills weren't 'removed' they were just merged together. You got the SP back and a skillbook. You use the SP you got back towards training the new skill you were given and you're right back where you were. Folks can be upset about the Q boost to the agents if they want, (though I don't know why they would) but to be upset about the skills..   Originally by: stoicfaux
Being unable to understand someone's viewpoint doesn't give you the right to trivialize a person by calling them a whiner. Trivializing individuals by dismissing their culture and their views/beliefs out of hand and labeling them as just stupid/wrong/whiney is the first step to discrimination, which leads to oppression, and eventually attempted world domination.
Next time, try to be more empathetic and understanding of your fellow man, either as a means to build bridges or as a means to better manipulate and oppress them.
 I am unsure if I dislike you or not, but I can say without a doubt that I would enjoy subscribing to your newsletter. |
Ripley Nostromo |
Posted - 2011.05.21 19:44:00 - [ 66]
Originally by: DeckardIRL
Have to say most of the responses are from Children that their mommies give them everything they want.... are clueless in regards of actually having earned and merited something for its benefit and especially its worth... its clearly a mirror on current society and further shame on CCP...
Deck
So players must be "children" because they don't agree with you? Play or quit no one gives a **** either way... |
Malartacha Foram
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2011.05.21 20:20:00 - [ 67]
Originally by: DeckardIRL
Edited by: DeckardIRL on 21/05/2011 00:27:46
But sorry CCP you have now f**ked me 3 times
Quit crying little baby. |
stoicfaux
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.05.21 21:23:00 - [ 68]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 21/05/2011 21:24:32 Originally by: Usagi Tsukino
Originally by: stoicfaux
No. It just sounds like whining because of your insensitivity towards other people's views.
I have to be honest, that is likely a very accurate statement...
It's something I learned from the learning skill removal threadnaught(s). Quote:
You had me till you used the word 'suffered'.
That's the problem. You don't see the suffering, so it's "impossible" for you to have a meaningful debate. The Pro and Con folks are debating with arguments based on different concerns and beliefs, which means that the Pro arguments do not address the Con concerns and vice versa. Nothing gets resolved. If your goal is to convince the Anti-Change side that the Agent-Change was good, then your arguments need to address the Anti-Change concerns. No one is doing that. For example: Pro-Change argument: "Nothing was lost." You didn't lose anything due to the skillpoint refund and due to the free skill books. Problem: The Pro-Change idea of loss doesn't match the Anti-Change people's idea of loss. The Anti-Change perceive the skillpoints and skillbooks as inadequate compensation, thus the "no loss" argument will fail to sway the Anti-Change people. If you stop and take a moment, you'll realize that the Anti-Change probably sees "loss" as: * Loss of Competitive Advantage * Loss of Future Income * Lack of Reimbursement for Opportunity Costs * Lack of Reimbursement for Moving Costs * Potentially Increased Risk/Danger If you can then tailor your arguments to address the Anti-Change people's concerns, you may be able to win them over to the Pro-change side. To sumIf you don't understand your opponent's fundamental concerns/beliefs, everyone just rehashes the same unconvincing arguments, people start shouting, names are used, and feelings get hurt. If you do understand your opponent's fundamental concerns/beliefs then a) you can tailor your arguments to address his concerns to win him over, or b) you realize that one party cannot accept the concerns/beliefs of the other and that there is no way to win the argument. Which leads to: b.1.) you "agree to disagree" and walk away, or b.2.) you use force to make your opponent agree to your arguments (demands) even though they contradict his concerns/beliefs. Hint: You work on commission (aka competitive merit based wages.) You make the most in the company. Management raises the commission rates for everyone but you. How do you feel? |
Bel Amar
Amarr
Sudden Buggery
Situation: Normal |
Posted - 2011.05.21 21:37:00 - [ 69]
Originally by: stoicfaux
* Loss of Competitive Advantage
There is no loss of competitive advantage. The previous advantage already gained from having high skills still stands, and the flexibility to re-distribute your investment elsewhere lets you maintain the same advantage if it is a priority for you. Quote:
* Loss of Future Income
If there is a loss of future income, this will be due to the agent changes, not the skill redistribution. Even then, I don't think we'll see any loss due to agent changes either. Quote:
* Lack of Reimbursement for Opportunity Costs
The opportunity cost was effectively zero. If you trained high social skills, you were gaining advantage from them right away. Now, it's possible that someone perceives they did not see /enough/ benefit from them before the skills were removed, but even if that's the case, the investment cost was refunded, so anything at all made with the high skills was gravy. Such a character is on equal footing with someone who didn't train social skills so high, except, said character has higher standings. Quote:
* Lack of Reimbursement for Moving Costs
This would be a factor of the agent change, not the skill refund that the OP was unhappy with Quote:
* Potentially Increased Risk/Danger
This would be a factor of the agent change, not the skill refund that the OP was unhappy with Quote:
If you can then tailor your arguments to address the Anti-Change people's concerns, you may be able to win them over to the Pro-change side.
Lets see if your theory is correct :) |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
|
Posted - 2011.05.21 21:46:00 - [ 70]
I support DeckardIRL purely on the weight of him having once FC'd a fleet I was in and having had a really, really awesome voice. |
Captain Megadeath |
Posted - 2011.05.21 22:22:00 - [ 71]
Originally by: Rico Minali
Personally I think a star destroyer would take down a battlestar anyday of the week 1 V 1...
Oh plueese, a Valkyre class Battlestar would pwn joo all. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club |
Posted - 2011.05.21 22:29:00 - [ 72]
While this is clearly a troll post, it brings up a decent idea. A 1.01 multiplier would indeed make folks less sore about having their skill-plan mucked with. Nowhere near the 50% bonus the OP suggests, but a pleasant pittance to receive nonetheless. |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape |
Posted - 2011.05.22 01:18:00 - [ 73]
Why are all the self-described "vets" in this game drooling illiterates? Does EVE cause brain damage? |
ILikeMarkets |
Posted - 2011.05.22 01:29:00 - [ 74]
Originally by: DeckardIRL
Have to say most of the responses are from Children that their mommies give them everything they want.... are clueless in regards of actually having earned and merited something for its benefit and especially its worth... its clearly a mirror on current society and further shame on CCP...
Deck
HAH! I actually believed this was a serious thread until I read this. Well played, sir. 8/10 for being a believable troll on the first post (-2 points for giving it away with this post). |
Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2011.05.22 09:35:00 - [ 75]
Edited by: Usagi Tsukino on 22/05/2011 09:35:31Bel Amar makes some great point by point counter arguments for you, so I won't basically repeat what he said, but I will address: Originally by: stoicfaux
If you can then tailor your arguments to address the Anti-Change people's concerns, you may be able to win them over to the Pro-change side.
To that I say 'meh'. I've been doing forums long enough to know that 97% of people do not engage in debate with any chance of having their opinion swayed. Therefore I have no interest in winning them over; simply pointing out that they are wrong (which they are \o/) and trying to look pretty while doing it. Originally by: stoicfaux
Hint: You work on commission (aka competitive merit based wages.) You make the most in the company. Management raises the commission rates for everyone but you. How do you feel?
I don't think this is comparative to what happened. If it is, then I guess I feel fine, because I take my large payout they gave me, learn another trade with it and find a better job?  |
DeckardIRL
The Randoms |
Posted - 2011.06.01 19:03:00 - [ 76]
Apologies, Away on business.... Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
I support DeckardIRL purely on the weight of him having once FC'd a fleet I was in and having had a really, really awesome voice.
Yes, the girls in work call me Diet Coke man..... until they see me! lololol Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
While this is clearly a troll post, it brings up a decent idea. A 1.01 multiplier would indeed make folks less sore about having their skill-plan mucked with. Nowhere near the 50% bonus the OP suggests, but a pleasant pittance to receive nonetheless.
Its not a troll, but I hate n00b whingers all the same and what are you doing? 1.01? You have never worked for those returns in your f**king life.... Deck |
Madelia Tigeress |
Posted - 2011.06.01 19:50:00 - [ 77]
I have to say, the people that got the worst of scrapping the learning skills, and then the social connection skills, are not the Vet's at all. It's the people that spent LP's and ISK on the books and didn't get a few years worth of the benefit's.
I had just finished training the specific social skills to level 4 and had not yet got around to running missions, the last skill was injected and level 1 before I heard about the changes.
I didn't whine then, and I am not whining now, none of it's real. I just think your argument about the "Vet's" suffering is flawed, you got "all those years" use out of faster training and extra LP's for your missions.
And words like "deserve" and "proper respect" sound a bit strong from someone, who just like me, is just a bunch of ones's and zero's on a hard disk in a datacenter somewhere. It's just a game, it really is...
|
Gavriel Black |
Posted - 2011.06.01 20:01:00 - [ 78]
Sorry, can you explain again how CCP "****ed you"? I personally had my skill points reimbursed, so I lost absolutely no skill points whatsoever. Which in return means I lost no training time which in return can be converted into my hard earned cash. I didn't even waste any time selecting what skills to put the reimbursed points in to. I simply added them to the skills I'd planned to train.
If they removed your skill points, I suggest you petition. If that fails you should SUE ccp for every penny.
And congratulations on being a VET. We should have a little retirement home so all us VETS can sit down and play holochess while we talk about the VET days.
/sarcasm. |
Selinate
Amarr |
Posted - 2011.06.01 20:50:00 - [ 79]
You had to suck up the removal of learning skills....?
<<wouldn't be sad if you decided to leave, in this case. |
Pineapple Squatsauce |
Posted - 2011.06.01 21:28:00 - [ 80]
Despite all of the fuss and fury demonstrated here, Deckard only really has two options:
A) He keeps playing, in which case the enjoyment he gets out of EVE still outweighs the inconvenience caused when CCP changes the systems he has invested in.
B) He stops playing and find something more enjoyable to do.
Regardless, his time is VERY valuable (up to 50% more valuable, SP-wise) and it should be respected accordingly. |
Anne Arqui
Minmatar
Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
|
Posted - 2011.06.01 21:54:00 - [ 81]
Edited by: Anne Arqui on 01/06/2011 21:54:29 Originally by: DeckardIRL
Don't Forget the Vets!
Why don't you just SHUT UP and STOP WHINING. There's no game where vets have such an advantage over new players as EVE. |
All Channels
EVE General Discussion
