Posted - 2011.05.17 11:03:00 - [31]

 

Originally by: CCP Guard

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I agree with the OP, Jitatolemy, that it was good to see learning skills go. They were intended to be an investment that would pay off for the patient, but became a grind that everyone did anyway. Not a fun or intuitive way to start a character.

Same with agent quality and divisions really. That system was intended to be something it didn't turn out to be. It was supposed to add depth to the game play, but only added arbitrary complexity. Complexity is cool if it adds depth, provides a meaningful challenge, and takes some smarts to overcome but if it doesn't hit those marks it's usually just a pain in the B-hind.

As a stark contrast I would point to the combat system in EVE which has nearly infinite depth and provides a long and challenging learning curve.

I would argue that removing arbitrary complexity always makes the game better. And not
just for so called carebears.

And it's not always about nerfing. It's about changing and balancing. But obviously some things become worse for some purposes when they are changed. In return, other things usually improve accordingly.

Then it's the 0.0 changes. They are bound to be controversial because they directly impact established interest. But a lot of people are also happy with the effects they will have on the game play, although I won't dive deep into that discussion. :)

But since the original post ends with a wish for EVE to return to it's roots...I'll dare to remind that EVE didn't even have jump bridges in the beginning

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I was with you til that last sentence. Jumpbridges, and in fact all jump capabilities have had more negative effects to this game than any other change, imho.

Overall you guys do a decent job, and changes are inevitable. But posting stuff like "adding complexity to an already complex game." is going to aggravate alot of people. That's, quite frankly, a really stupid comment to do. Since when did complexity become something dirty in EVE?

I see both positive and negative effects with this particular change, so I'd consider myself "neutral" in this scenario. That phrase tho.. someone should own up a little and think about what he's saying. Or, is that the standards of CCP now? We (You) want an easy and dumb game?

Posted - 2011.05.17 11:19:00 - [33]

 

Originally by: Culmen

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1) How is the agent change doing anything to harm/hurt anybody?
It's going to have zero effect, but a little less book keeping.
2) You do realize their nerfing cyno jammed systems and jump freighters right?
3) Can I have you stuff?

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This.Also, do you really think that the stupid boring and grindfest standing/quality system is entertaining?

/sigh

Posted - 2011.05.17 11:21:00 - [35]

 

Originally by: CCP Guard

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I'll dare to remind that EVE didn't even have jump bridges in the beginning

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So maybe you now see that jump bridges(as well as jump freighters) were one of the worst things that ever happened to EVE?

They totally destroyed the concept of 0.0 worrying about pirates on the way out.

Posted - 2011.05.17 11:32:00 - [37]

 

Originally by: CCP Guard

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Point being that we put things in the game with good intentions, some work out, some don't work as well. Since we want to keep evolving the game we also have to have the courage to admit that not all our creations are equal, and remove or change the things that don't work. Note that I still fully expect you guys to kick our butts about it from time to time. Sometimes we even deserve it a little bit.

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HOOOOO MIGHTY!!!

You've just asked, you going to get it !

Move your grass monkey asses and fix gallente/hybrids stuff right NAO !!

Posted - 2011.05.17 11:37:00 - [39]

 

Originally by: Ghoest

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Originally by: CCP Guard

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I'll dare to remind that EVE didn't even have jump bridges in the beginning

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So maybe you now see that jump bridges(as well as jump freighters) were one of the worst things that ever happened to EVE?

They totally destroyed the concept of 0.0 worrying about pirates on the way out.

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Or on the way back. I'd argue that perhaps jump freighters should be capable of jumping :

1) From anywhere -> Null;
2) Null <-> Null

and that's it.

If you kill the ability of the JF to jump into null from anywhere then that will discourage newer corps/players to move to null without joining an existing NAPfest.

You shouldn't be able to jump into low-sec which means you're probably going to have to go through gates both ways (in and out of null) which opens up some more gameplay options in low-sec and 0.0 entry points.

Oh and yes I have a JF alt before anyone asks

Posted - 2011.05.17 12:04:00 - [41]

 

I'm a high sec mission runner who's never been to lowsec, much less 0.0. I agree with all nerfs to 0.0 because I sit in a position of authority to pass judgment on such things.

Posted - 2011.05.17 12:32:00 - [43]

 

Originally by: CCP Guard

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And we also had weapons (edit: I meant damage mods. derp.) that stacked perfectly for comedy instaganks.

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I miss the 8 HS gankergeddon personally.

Posted - 2011.05.17 12:47:00 - [45]

 

"...follows WOW to the grave."

Yeah, because WoW is dead.

It's nice when OPs can save you the trouble of even reading their diatribe by giving you a nice "tl;dr: I'm gonna rant irrationally" right there in the topic.

Posted - 2011.05.17 13:00:00 - [47]

 

Originally by: CCP Guard

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Edited by: CCP Guard on 17/05/2011 10:16:14

Originally by: Akita T

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Edited by: Akita T on 17/05/2011 09:59:41

Originally by: CCP Guard

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But since the original post ends with a wish for EVE to return to it's roots...I'll dare to remind that EVE didn't even have jump bridges in the beginning

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Or jump-capable vessels. Or warp to zero. Or CONCORD.

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Indeed :).

And we also had weapons (edit: I meant damage mods. derp.) that stacked perfectly for comedy instaganks (my spell checker is still in the dark ages and wants me to change this fine word btw, can you believe it?).

Point being that we put things in the game with good intentions, some work out, some don't work as well. Since we want to keep evolving the game we also have to have the courage to admit that not all our creations are equal, and remove or change the things that don't work. Note that I still fully expect you guys to kick our butts about it from time to time. Sometimes we even deserve it a little bit.

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Aaaaand... *dramatic music* Stackable MWD's... And mines, and.... can go on and on.

Posted - 2011.05.17 13:29:00 - [49]

 

Originally by: CCP Guard

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I agree with the OP, Jitatolemy, that it was good to see learning skills go. They were intended to be an investment that would pay off for the patient, but became a grind that everyone did anyway. Not a fun or intuitive way to start a character.

Same with agent quality and divisions really. That system was intended to be something it didn't turn out to be. It was supposed to add depth to the game play, but only added arbitrary complexity. Complexity is cool if it adds depth, provides a meaningful challenge, and takes some smarts to overcome but if it doesn't hit those marks it's usually just a pain in the B-hind.

As a stark contrast I would point to the combat system in EVE which has nearly infinite depth and provides a long and challenging learning curve.

I would argue that removing arbitrary complexity always makes the game better. And not
just for so called carebears.

And it's not always about nerfing. It's about changing and balancing. But obviously some things become worse for some purposes when they are changed. In return, other things usually improve accordingly.

Then it's the 0.0 changes. They are bound to be controversial because they directly impact established interest. But a lot of people are also happy with the effects they will have on the game play, although I won't dive deep into that discussion. :)

But since the original post ends with a wish for EVE to return to it's roots...I'll dare to remind that EVE didn't even have jump bridges in the beginning

---

The Agent quality and division changes make sense, now. For those of us that did missions Pre LP the old system makes sense. With all due respect it goes against all things EVE because it is a one size fits all solution and EVE is anything but a One size fits all game with it's hundreds of roles ships.

Having spent years of casual play grinding up a small Gallente corp called Material Acquisition to 9.8 I can say it sucks that I don't have Jump clones, don't have Lv. 4 Sec agents, don't have anything that gives me the feeling of accomplishment one should have with that standing, not seeing anything in this patch to change that. So it isn't a balancing system, it's finishing the one size fits all changes done when LP stores got put in.

As for Zero sec changes, you have the implementation to remove them from all but player hubs. You simply need to buff how often Wormholes occur that have 900 mill and up jump through caps. As a casual, I can find plenty to get from High sec to null sec using a J system as a connection but to do it with a freighter I would be looking at maybe 2 a year? Ramp that up to 6 or 8 and there would be alot less need for logistical Jump Bridges. It would be random, require people to be active in thier logistics and would be an alternative to One siize fits all circumventions like Jump Bridges.

Posted - 2011.05.17 13:40:00 - [51]

 

Originally by: Damien McCandless

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to Miss Rabblt:

NICE HAIR

or is it a bobblehat with no bobble?

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it was moment when i said "**** face creator", let's use random. This face is a just result of a random.
BTW: face creator is another stupid thing is Eve. Made just for little kiddos.

Posted - 2011.05.17 13:59:00 - [53]

 

Change is different.
Different is bad.
Change is bad.

Posted - 2011.05.17 14:06:00 - [55]

 

I need a spectral Rifter that trails glitter please.

Posted - 2011.05.17 14:25:00 - [57]

 

Edited by: JC Anderson on 17/05/2011 14:27:15
Many people likely do not realize how the pre LP system worked and likewise how rare faction ships were.

In order to get a Navy Raven for example, your agent had to OFFER it to you... And this did not happen often as there was a random factor involved. And even then you would have to have what the agent was asking for in order to complete the offer.

Due to this, faction ships were a rare sight in New Eden, and the price tag on them matched. Even the Navy Raven, which is now common was well over a billion isk.

In any sense, the upcoming agent changes are in no way the biggest we've seen in relation to the mission system as a whole. In fact they are relatively minor when compared to what we have seen in the past.

Posted - 2011.05.17 17:21:00 - [59]

 

Originally by: CCP Guard

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Note that I still fully expect you guys to kick our butts about it from time to time. Sometimes we even deserve it a little bit.

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Remember when you guys initially announce there would be a change and people speculated how they thought it should work? Well that's how it should work.

Seriously if you guys are doing something that isn't causing carebears (those that have reading comprehension) to start threadnaughts of *****ing, its a pretty good indicator that you guys are shifting the way Eve is played in their favor.