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Soldevai Kould
Posted - 2011.05.02 00:33:00 - [1]
 

Is it quicker to blitz throught lvl3 missions to gain standing or do lvl 4 give more?

Lord Grimmas
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2011.05.02 00:41:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Lord Grimmas on 02/05/2011 00:43:07
If you can, on average, do an L3 more than twice as fast as an L4, you're better off with the L3 for the grind. Alternatively, find a storyline agent for the corp in question and do L3/L4 missions near him, when a storyline comes up your corp standing will shoot through the roof (some L4 storylines give 26% standing bonus or more). Ideally you'd run for the same corp nearby so you'd get both bonuses for regular missions as well as for the storyline.

Soldevai Kould
Posted - 2011.05.02 01:03:00 - [3]
 

Hmmmm, I wasn't aware of that Shocked

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.05.02 02:49:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim on 02/05/2011 02:55:29
I was running level 3 missions with a medium quality agent and level 4 missions with a very low quality agent. I was getting perhaps 3-6 times the loot and bounties in the level 4 missions, and usually over twice the pay from the agent. Maybe it varies from one place to another, or by agent somehow, but in my case the only thing that was keeping me from running level 4 missions was the risk of losing my ship, or the occasional battleship mob that was able to tank my drake's dps indefinitely.

I run level 4s in a raven now, and I just never got anything close to this pay in level 3s, unless you count the lucky streak of getting the level 3 10-part storyline Guristas Strike (20-40 mil worth) 3 times in a row. I've done several level 3 storylines with the same agent since then and haven't got it more than once again, so I don't think it's all that common.

I'd say if you can run level 3s 3 to 5 times as fast, then it's worthwhile. But generally I'd say level 3s are for people who can't run level 4s for whatever reason (no available agents, not good enough ship, too much risk, not enough dps, etc.). But that's just my own experience.


The level 3 and 4 agents I describe here are members of the same corporation, in the same region, and same system security status. (Center for Advanced Studies, Sinq Laison, 0.6)

I also ran some level 3s and 4s with Republic Security Services in the same region, both in 0.5 security systems. The pay from the agents was similar to the CAS agents, in line with their difference in quality. But the in-mission rewards were significantly higher. I'm not sure if it was because of the system security status, the particular missions the agents gave, or perhaps their corporation/faction.

Kfwang
Posted - 2011.05.05 05:23:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Reaver Glitterstim
Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim on 02/05/2011 02:55:29
I was running level 3 missions with a medium quality agent and level 4 missions with a very low quality agent. I was getting perhaps 3-6 times the loot and bounties in the level 4 missions, and usually over twice the pay from the agent. Maybe it varies from one place to another, or by agent somehow, but in my case the only thing that was keeping me from running level 4 missions was the risk of losing my ship, or the occasional battleship mob that was able to tank my drake's dps indefinitely.

I run level 4s in a raven now, and I just never got anything close to this pay in level 3s, unless you count the lucky streak of getting the level 3 10-part storyline Guristas Strike (20-40 mil worth) 3 times in a row. I've done several level 3 storylines with the same agent since then and haven't got it more than once again, so I don't think it's all that common.

I'd say if you can run level 3s 3 to 5 times as fast, then it's worthwhile. But generally I'd say level 3s are for people who can't run level 4s for whatever reason (no available agents, not good enough ship, too much risk, not enough dps, etc.). But that's just my own experience.


The level 3 and 4 agents I describe here are members of the same corporation, in the same region, and same system security status. (Center for Advanced Studies, Sinq Laison, 0.6)

I also ran some level 3s and 4s with Republic Security Services in the same region, both in 0.5 security systems. The pay from the agents was similar to the CAS agents, in line with their difference in quality. But the in-mission rewards were significantly higher. I'm not sure if it was because of the system security status, the particular missions the agents gave, or perhaps their corporation/faction.


Standings, not pay. It's easy to see that L4's pay out much better ISK/Hour than L3's, however the standings changes are not nearly as high.

Destamon
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2011.05.05 09:12:00 - [6]
 

Exactly. I haven't exactly conducted scientific tests on thousands of samples but, in my experience, the standing gain from L4 missions is only just about double of the standing gain from similar L3 missions. So you can grind L3s for corp standing faster if you can do them more than twice as fast.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.05.05 14:45:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lord Grimmas
Edited by: Lord Grimmas on 02/05/2011 00:43:07
If you can, on average, do an L3 more than twice as fast as an L4, you're better off with the L3 for the grind. Alternatively, find a storyline agent for the corp in question and do L3/L4 missions near him, when a storyline comes up your corp standing will shoot through the roof (some L4 storylines give 26% standing bonus or more). Ideally you'd run for the same corp nearby so you'd get both bonuses for regular missions as well as for the storyline.


You've got the right idea, buy the 2-1 ratio is wrong. LP payout for lvl4 is roughly 5 times as much as lvl3, rat bounty, roughly 10 times.

Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.05 17:10:00 - [8]
 

If all you want to do is grind standing - just faceroll L3 missions. In a properly fitted ship, you can do all but the "Extravaganza" missions in under 15 minutes.

If you're looking to make ISK and LP - do L4's, no question. The L3 payouts and LP awards aren't even close.

Destamon
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2011.05.05 19:21:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Goose99
You've got the right idea, buy the 2-1 ratio is wrong. LP payout for lvl4 is roughly 5 times as much as lvl3, rat bounty, roughly 10 times.


It seems that I'm saying this for the third time, but we are talking about corporate standing gain. Not loot, not LP, not bounties, not mission rewards. These are entirely unrelated to the discussion.

Nerror theTerror
Posted - 2011.05.05 22:12:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Nerror theTerror on 05/05/2011 22:14:25

Haven't done much in the way of L4 missions yet, but I have done quite a few L3s by now.

From the regular combat missions, depending on system security level and agent quality, I have gotten somewhere between 0,7% to 3,9% corp standing increases with all social skills at V. From storyline combat missions I have gotten roughly between 7% to 21% corp standing. The bigger missions like The Blockade and the Extravaganzas give the most. They gave me around 3,9% in a 0,5 system with a L3 Q4 agent. Going up to a 0,6 system with same quality agent, that might fall to 3,4% or so (can't recall exactly). As I understand it that's not too far from what the L4 missions give. Certainly much more than half.

So depending on your ship and skills, unless you can really chew through those L4s quickly in a Machariel or similar, the L3s are probably faster for standing gains, at the cost of some ISK and LP.

sabre906
Posted - 2011.05.06 01:14:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis
If all you want to do is grind standing - just faceroll L3 missions. In a properly fitted ship, you can do all but the "Extravaganza" missions in under 15 minutes.

If you're looking to make ISK and LP - do L4's, no question. The L3 payouts and LP awards aren't even close.


It depends on skill. Personally, I blitz lvl4 AE in less than 15 minutes. Lvl3s, on the other hand, still takes 3-5 minutes due to travel times along, and there's no real way to decrease it further. With Each lvl3 giving only 1/3 to 1/5 of the standings gain as a lvl4, lvl4s are obviously the way to go.

If you're low skilled, and can't even finish a lvl3 AE in 15 minutes, it'll probably mean hours for a decent lvl4. In that case, lvl3s are the way to go. Although you might as well pay a grinding corp for the standings. It would be less painful.Razz

Leeonwung
Posted - 2011.05.06 04:02:00 - [12]
 

in that last comment what do you mean by paying a grinding corp for standings?

Destamon
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2011.05.06 06:50:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Destamon on 06/05/2011 06:51:28
Originally by: Nerror theTerror

Haven't done much in the way of L4 missions yet, but I have done quite a few L3s by now.



For comparison, at Social V, L4Q16 in 0.5 sec with 8.21 agent personal standing gives me 4.7% for Blockade, 4.3% for Recon 1/3, 2.9% for Smuggler Interception, and 1.4% for The Sansha Spies.

Originally by: Leeonwung
in that last comment what do you mean by paying a grinding corp for standings?

People will happily fleet you and run missions all day long while you AFK, if you pay them. If they hand in the mission for fleet, you will get the standing increase also - you don't actually have to be on grid and fight, nor even be in the same solar system.

Scorpii Orion
Perkone
Posted - 2011.05.06 07:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Soldevai Kould
Is it quicker to blitz throught lvl3 missions to gain standing or do lvl 4 give more?
If you really want to blitz standings, you do lvl2 missions. Missions can be done in AF or cruiser, most of the missions are really simple, kill few rats or just one and gtfo. Easy and fast, also gives you about 7-9 storylines before you have that 6-8 standing for good lvl4 agents.

sabre906
Posted - 2011.05.06 15:56:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Scorpii Orion
Originally by: Soldevai Kould
Is it quicker to blitz throught lvl3 missions to gain standing or do lvl 4 give more?
If you really want to blitz standings, you do lvl2 missions. Missions can be done in AF or cruiser, most of the missions are really simple, kill few rats or just one and gtfo. Easy and fast, also gives you about 7-9 storylines before you have that 6-8 standing for good lvl4 agents.


You will be at it for a long time.Razz

Originally by: Destamon
Edited by: Destamon on 06/05/2011 06:51:28
Originally by: Nerror theTerror

Haven't done much in the way of L4 missions yet, but I have done quite a few L3s by now.



For comparison, at Social V, L4Q16 in 0.5 sec with 8.21 agent personal standing gives me 4.7% for Blockade, 4.3% for Recon 1/3, 2.9% for Smuggler Interception, and 1.4% for The Sansha Spies.

Originally by: Leeonwung
in that last comment what do you mean by paying a grinding corp for standings?

People will happily fleet you and run missions all day long while you AFK, if you pay them. If they hand in the mission for fleet, you will get the standing increase also - you don't actually have to be on grid and fight, nor even be in the same solar system.


That percentage vary greatly depending corp size. Huge sized corp will gain much more slowly than Tiny sized corp.

Destamon
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2011.05.06 17:01:00 - [16]
 

Probably true for npc corp -> pc corp, but we are talking about npc corp -> player standings in this case. That does not depend on pc corp size.

Scorpii Orion
Perkone
Posted - 2011.05.06 17:09:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: sabre906

You will be at it for a long time.Razz
Not really. Four nights is my record. It's not really worth to switch to lvl3 from lvl2 missions. But when you get to lowest lvl4 agent, then it's worth to switch from lvl2 to lvl4 agent.

Of course you must have social IV and connections IV ready.

Nerror theTerror
Posted - 2011.05.06 22:40:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: sabre906
With Each lvl3 giving only 1/3 to 1/5 of the standings gain as a lvl4, lvl4s are obviously the way to go.



But that's the thing, it looks like the L3s only give 20% less standing than L4s, give or take. ISK and LP differences are big, standing gains not so much.

sabre906
Posted - 2011.05.07 02:45:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nerror theTerror
Originally by: sabre906
With Each lvl3 giving only 1/3 to 1/5 of the standings gain as a lvl4, lvl4s are obviously the way to go.



But that's the thing, it looks like the L3s only give 20% less standing than L4s, give or take. ISK and LP differences are big, standing gains not so much.


You have to compare equivalent lvl3s and lvl4s, from the same corp. For a med size corp, A lvl4 AE gives 3% corp standings gain, a lvl3 AE gives less than 1%.

Originally by: Destamon
Probably true for npc corp -> pc corp, but we are talking about npc corp -> player standings in this case. That does not depend on pc corp size.


Not probably, definitely. And I'm refering to npc corp size, not player corp.

Destamon
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2011.05.07 09:09:00 - [20]
 

You are basing this on what, the number of agents the NPC corp has? I'm pretty certain that NPC corp size has no bearing on standing increase.

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2011.05.07 11:10:00 - [21]
 

Quickest is a station with 2 or more agents in it. Bonus if there's a storyline agent in same station too. A system with multiple agents is also good.

Accept 2 (or more) missions at a time, undock, blitz them, dock, repeat.

There are I think more stations with multiple lvl3s than multiple lvl4s.

sabre906
Posted - 2011.05.07 15:03:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Destamon
You are basing this on what, the number of agents the NPC corp has? I'm pretty certain that NPC corp size has no bearing on standing increase.


It's not "I'm basing this." The game bases this on the corp size in corp attributes, which is divided into 5 categories: Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge. If you can't figure this out in game, you need to look up some wikis. You will never learn anything if you always try to argue against facts given by others whenever it collides with your own imagination.

Destamon
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2011.05.07 16:20:00 - [23]
 

Then stop trolling and show us some of these facts then. Twisted Evil

sabre906
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:26:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Destamon
Then stop trolling and show us some of these facts then. Twisted Evil

Originally by: sabre906
The game bases this on the corp size in corp attributes, which is divided into 5 categories: Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge. Percentage gain for the same mission for smaller corp is larger than for larger corp. You can see this in log.

Nerror theTerror
Posted - 2011.05.07 23:01:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Nerror theTerror on 07/05/2011 23:14:03
Edited by: Nerror theTerror on 07/05/2011 23:13:21
Originally by: sabre906
Originally by: Destamon
Then stop trolling and show us some of these facts then. Twisted Evil

Originally by: sabre906
The game bases this on the corp size in corp attributes, which is divided into 5 categories: Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge. Percentage gain for the same mission for smaller corp is larger than for larger corp. You can see this in log.



Either they removed or tweaked this then. You are probably referring to these formulas:

Quote:
Corporation standing increase = Agent standing increase * Agent efficiency / corporation size

Quote:
Agent efficiency = 0.01 * ((8 * Agent's level) + (0.1 * Agent's quality) - 4)



From this thread we get the numbers:

Huge : 0.8 - 1.0(?)
Large : 0.6 - 0.7
Medium : 0.4 - 0.5
Small : 0.2(?) - 0.3(?)
Tiny : 0.1(?)

Those are just his extrapolated numbers of course, but they can be used for comparison.


Now, I got the following from L3 The Blockade from a Spacelane Patrol (huge corporation) agent (L3 Q4) in Uedama, a 0,5 system. Effective quality of the agent with my skills is 33.

The agent standing went up 9,5265%. The corporation standing went up 3,9015%

Plotting in the numbers:
Agent efficiency = 0,01 * ((8 * 3) + (0,1 * 33) - 4) = 0,233
Corp standing: 3,9015% = 9,5265% * 0,233 / corporation size modifier
Which means the corp size modifier is around 0,5689. Remember, Spacelane Patrol is listed as a huge corp. Already the numbers differ from the post I linked to.


Let's go to another mission, L3 Angel Extravaganza for Urban Management (medium corporation) from a L3 Q0 agent in Osoggur, also a 0,5 system. Effective quality of the agent with my skills is 30.

The agent standing went up 9,5265%. The corporation standing went up 3,825%

Plotting in the numbers again:
Agent efficiency = 0,01 * ((8 * 3) + (0,1 * 30) - 4) = 0,230
Corp standing: 3,825% = 9,5265% * 0,230 / corporation size modifier
Which means the corp size modifier is around 0,5728. Remember, Urban Management is a medium size corp.

So the difference between a huge corp and medium size corp seems quite small. About 0,0039 corp size modifier difference between these two corps, which could be attributed to rounding off the percentages shown.

Running the numbers against other missions show the same pattern. All in all it kinda looks like they just set the corp size modifier to a fixed number, but I haven't run the numbers for missions for all corp sizes.

sabre906
Posted - 2011.05.08 03:46:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Nerror theTerror
Edited by: Nerror theTerror on 07/05/2011 23:14:03
Edited by: Nerror theTerror on 07/05/2011 23:13:21
Originally by: sabre906
Originally by: Destamon
Then stop trolling and show us some of these facts then. Twisted Evil

Originally by: sabre906
The game bases this on the corp size in corp attributes, which is divided into 5 categories: Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge. Percentage gain for the same mission for smaller corp is larger than for larger corp. You can see this in log.



Either they removed or tweaked this then. You are probably referring to these formulas:

Quote:
Corporation standing increase = Agent standing increase * Agent efficiency / corporation size

Quote:
Agent efficiency = 0.01 * ((8 * Agent's level) + (0.1 * Agent's quality) - 4)



From this thread we get the numbers:

Huge : 0.8 - 1.0(?)
Large : 0.6 - 0.7
Medium : 0.4 - 0.5
Small : 0.2(?) - 0.3(?)
Tiny : 0.1(?)

Those are just his extrapolated numbers of course, but they can be used for comparison.


Now, I got the following from L3 The Blockade from a Spacelane Patrol (huge corporation) agent (L3 Q4) in Uedama, a 0,5 system. Effective quality of the agent with my skills is 33.

The agent standing went up 9,5265%. The corporation standing went up 3,9015%

Plotting in the numbers:
Agent efficiency = 0,01 * ((8 * 3) + (0,1 * 33) - 4) = 0,233
Corp standing: 3,9015% = 9,5265% * 0,233 / corporation size modifier
Which means the corp size modifier is around 0,5689. Remember, Spacelane Patrol is listed as a huge corp. Already the numbers differ from the post I linked to.


Let's go to another mission, L3 Angel Extravaganza for Urban Management (medium corporation) from a L3 Q0 agent in Osoggur, also a 0,5 system. Effective quality of the agent with my skills is 30.

The agent standing went up 9,5265%. The corporation standing went up 3,825%

Plotting in the numbers again:
Agent efficiency = 0,01 * ((8 * 3) + (0,1 * 30) - 4) = 0,230
Corp standing: 3,825% = 9,5265% * 0,230 / corporation size modifier
Which means the corp size modifier is around 0,5728. Remember, Urban Management is a medium size corp.

So the difference between a huge corp and medium size corp seems quite small. About 0,0039 corp size modifier difference between these two corps, which could be attributed to rounding off the percentages shown.

Running the numbers against other missions show the same pattern. All in all it kinda looks like they just set the corp size modifier to a fixed number, but I haven't run the numbers for missions for all corp sizes.


I checked logs again. I'm getting much higher difference. 3.5203% for Roden Shipyard vs 2.5098% for Hyasyoda for the same lvl4 Gone Berserk, for example. First is medium sized, second is huge. Both L4Q18. Logs on other corps also show noticeable difference, although agent qualities don't match exactly.

Nerror theTerror
Posted - 2011.05.08 12:12:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Nerror theTerror on 08/05/2011 12:15:24

Originally by: sabre906
I checked logs again. I'm getting much higher difference. 3.5203% for Roden Shipyard vs 2.5098% for Hyasyoda for the same lvl4 Gone Berserk, for example. First is medium sized, second is huge. Both L4Q18. Logs on other corps also show noticeable difference, although agent qualities don't match exactly.


Hrm, which systems are those agents in? Security level means a lot, and it's probably based on the true-sec of the system. A whole percentage point is a lot though, unless the system security level is very different.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2011.05.08 12:19:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Soldevai Kould
Is it quicker to blitz throught lvl3 missions to gain standing or do lvl 4 give more?


Depends for what. If your goal is to gain access to one particular level 4 agent then fastest way is to do these level 4 missions with another char and split the reward in half. That way you will gain the access from personal standings in 30 to 40 missions (L4Q18 agent, 30 with connections 3, 40 with connections 0).

Nerror theTerror
Posted - 2011.05.08 12:30:00 - [29]
 

Ok looked it up instead:

Roden Shipyards agent must be in Scheenins, which is a 0,5 system.
Hyasyoda agent must either be the one in Gekutami (0,7) or Wuos (0,6).

So the system level probably accounts for a large chunk of the difference, but I don't think it accounts for all of it. Especially not if it's the true sec of the system being used.

If you could check your actual agent standing gains for those two missions, and their effective quality, we can just do the math. :)

sabre906
Posted - 2011.05.08 14:55:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Nerror theTerror
Ok looked it up instead:

Roden Shipyards agent must be in Scheenins, which is a 0,5 system.
Hyasyoda agent must either be the one in Gekutami (0,7) or Wuos (0,6).

So the system level probably accounts for a large chunk of the difference, but I don't think it accounts for all of it. Especially not if it's the true sec of the system being used.

If you could check your actual agent standing gains for those two missions, and their effective quality, we can just do the math. :)


It was 5.9065 for Viendomandie Slace (Scheenins) and 5.8932 for Uesi Toumaioh (Wuos), both effective quality 52. Same date and timestamp as in corp standings entries.


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