Posted - 2011.04.16 04:01:00 - [122]

 

Originally by: Noisrevbus

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Edited by: Noisrevbus on 16/04/2011 03:31:04

Originally by: Lara Dontral

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The mere fact that it's even possible to permanently jam someone illustrates the point that ECM is unbalanced.

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You mean like how you can permanently dampen someone, neutralize someone or web them out of point range? :).

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This is not a fair comparison, and I think you know this.
If you are permanently jammed, there is literally nothing you can do to interact with the fight unless you have a smartbomb or ECM burst fitted. You can't even report on how quickly ships are going down because you can't lock. Even if you have drones out the best you can do is assign them to someone else, which is at best boring and at worst a waste of time because of loldrones.

If you're permanently damped, neuted, or webbed, there are many situations where you can still contribute to the fight, by running capless modules, using cap boosters, targeting things that are closer to you, and the like. It's also much less frustrating than being completely unable to lock, which is imo the real problem with ECM.

Posted - 2011.04.16 07:15:00 - [124]

 

Originally by: Von Kroll

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On my other PvP ships, I fit NOS to combat Neuts. If they don't have Neuts, that's a wasted module.

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No it isn't. For example, on active tanked frigates, the nos is useful to power your rep longer as well as let you not be totally dead in the water when neuts hit.

Originally by: Von Kroll

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We fit afterburners to combat scrams, but if they don't have a scram, we'd be better off with a MWD.

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Or if you forsee yourself wanting to orbit at close range without outrunning your own tracking, or without the signature penalties or cap usage of a microwarpdrive.

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Either fit ECCM on your ship and enjoy being very difficult to jam, or accept the fact that you will be jammed from time-to-time.

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If you fit ECCM to your ship, frequently it just means that someone has to devote more jams to you. A typical Rook trying to jam an ECCM'd Tengu (14 jam strength v. about 70 sensor strength) has a 20% jam chance or a 36% chance with two jammers. Trying to jam an ECCM'd Sleipnir (~35 sensor strength) has a 40% jam chance or 64% with two jammers. ECCM'd Zealot or Vagabond has 26 sensor strength and an ~80% chance of getting jammed with 2 jammers. No, most of the time you won't be jammed "permanently", but being jammed for 80 seconds out of every 100 might as well be unless you can burn through an ECM ship in the ~15 seconds you'll have in between jams.

Fitting ECCM is more like "I will require more of the ECM ship's jammers to be put on me, meaning he will be less able to affect the rest of my gang, so the ECM ship can be forced off the field faster," until you get to the point where you have so much sensor strength that the ECM ships don't have enough racials to have a shot at jamming you (for example you need to bring at least 6 Caldari jammers to have a 75% chance of jamming the aforementioned Tengu).

It's also worth pointing out that in general (with the exception of T3 + dissolution sequencer) the harder a ship is to jam, the longer it takes to lock, which means that when you jam a BS fighting a bunch of cruisers or BCs jam cycles really take the ship out of operation for 25 or 30 seconds instead of just the 20.

And unlike your contrived examples, ECCM actually does have no other purpose in combat besides preventing you from getting jammed. The only other effect it has is making you more difficult to probe out, and if getting probed out is a concern for a ship, it's not set up to be in real combat anyway.

Posted - 2011.04.16 11:41:00 - [126]

 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

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You forgot neuts. Everyone and their mother fits them, they work all the time in range, and there is no sensibly fitted ship* that goes unaffected by them - ranging from shutting down their prop mod and tackle to their defences and turrets, depending on the ship in question.

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This is true, but there's still a huge difference between being capped out and being target jammed. A good example would be anything that's buffer fit and using missiles or projectile turrets. Even if you can force them to drop point, they can still put 100% of their DPS on you. Shield buffers lose some resistances and thus tank, but it doesn't immediately cripple them. If they're armor tanked, most of their hardeners are passive, so you're not affecting their tank significantly either.

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

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My curse isn't even fully neut fit and that can oneshot the capacitor on pretty much anything cruiser sized while crippling their turrets (if any), and bigger stuff doesn't take much more.

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Can you disable two cruisers at once in that manner? Three? Let's take my original example...could you simultaneously incapacitate three Hurricanes at once with your Curse? No? Because a Falcon can. What if the Hurricanes have missile launchers in their extra high slots? It's not a common fit but I've seen it plenty of times.

Point being: On most ships, being capped out doesn't completely negate their ability to fight. Being jammed does.

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

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At least stuff that's ECM'd can still move.

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Oh, good. You can still move...big whoop. Unless CCP implements the ability to ram other ships to cause damage, that's not a good consolation.

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

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I may not like stunlocking as a mechanic any more than the next person, but you don't seem able to suggest anything besides "nerf them into being utterly obsolete, then maybe think something up later".

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I never said nerf them into being obsolete. There are plenty of modifications you can make to ECM that keeps them useful. Diminishing returns is a prime example. Maximum jam time = 40-60 seconds. After that, that individual target cannot be jammed for another 60 seconds or so.

A 40-60 second jam still gives you a very strong tactical advantage, but prevents you from being able to kill ships that take 5-10 minutes for your DPS to bring down.

Posted - 2011.04.16 12:11:00 - [128]

 

Edited by: Lara Dontral on 16/04/2011 12:12:14

Originally by: Kurfin

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Originally by: Salpad

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What about simply a skill that increases sensor strength?

There's already a skill that increases ECM strength, although I've forgotten what it is called, but while almost every stat in EVE has at least one skill that can increase it, sensor strength does not.

+7.5% sensor strength per level would make a diference. Maybe +10%/lvl.

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This idea I like.

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This was one idea I also agreed with. If you look at the system, most ewar types have a specific skill that mitigates their effects.

Sensor Dampeners are mitigated by Long Range Targeting/Signature Analysis
Neutralizers are mitigated by Energy Systems Operation/Energy Management.
Tracking Disruption is mitigated by Motion Prediction/Trajectory Analysis/Sharpshooter.

So yes, a skill that boosts sensor strength would be a good compromise. Target Painting isn't countered by a skill, either. Perhaps they should add a skill that reduces signature radius.

(Even so, they still need a way to prevent being jammed for more than two or three cycles in a row.)

Posted - 2011.04.16 13:16:00 - [130]

 

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This is true, but there's still a huge difference between being capped out and being target jammed

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Depends on the ship. Hurricane? Not too bad. Cap dependant weapons/tank? You're screwed even worse than if you were ECM'd.

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Can you disable two cruisers at once in that manner? Three?

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Yes, I can. Your point?

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could you simultaneously incapacitate three Hurricanes at once with your Curse?

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A Falcon would be hard pressed to do so without 3 of the correct racials. Neuts need no such preparation - they work all the time, on anything in range.

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Point being: On most ships, being capped out doesn't completely negate their ability to fight. Being jammed does.

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I definately wouldn't say "most". It's a gradient - on one end you've got ships that are barely affected, on the other you've got ships that are utterly crippled.

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Oh, good. You can still move...big whoop. Unless CCP implements the ability to ram other ships to cause damage, that's not a good consolation.

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You really are a tool.
A thoroughly neuted ship has any active cap using modules broken, including prop mods - so not only are they a varying degree of screwed but they can't even move anywhere, and this isn't going away without killing the ship doing it. Worse than simply jammed? I think so.

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I never said nerf them into being obsolete.

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No, you just want to break the only thing they're good at. That's totally different.

Posted - 2011.04.16 13:37:00 - [132]

 

Originally by: Trust'me im'honest

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Edited by: Trust''me im''honest on 16/04/2011 13:26:03
Nerf the curse as well! all pvp should just be damamge mods no utility in gangs hurrrrrr!

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you forgot that all pvp ships should be matar only ,why bother with other races anyway?
this game is so broken ,why should the player have to make choices regard ships ,they should be able to ballte and win with hurricanes only, no matter whos the enemy

Posted - 2011.04.16 14:22:00 - [134]

 

Originally by: Terianna Eri

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If you are permanently jammed, there is literally nothing you can do to interact with the fight unless you have a smartbomb or ECM burst fitted.

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You've just pointed out the real reason that people still moan about ECM - people are unwilling to accept the counters.

Read your quote. Then read it again.

You've gone as far bolding the word "nothing" in an attempt to convince yourself and others that there is *nothing* you can do.....but then go to list 2 counters. Another quick three are to destroy the ship (perfectly possible when jams fail*), FOF missiles, or jam the Falcon. The FOF missiles are often dismissed, but a rack of them heading to a Falcon soon causes them to warp off....at which point you're not jammed.

*The maths show that jams regularly fail, so you only need one ship to give the DPS on the Falcon. Unless the entire fleet is jammed, then the Falcon should be primary anyway. You don't need to destroy it to make it ineffective in combat.

So a quick rundown of counters:

SmartBombs
Jam the other ship / ECM burst
Destroy the other ship
Cause the other ship to warp off (call it primary)
Neut it if in range (unlikely, I appreciate)
FOF missiles
ECCM (it's surprisingly effective)

My personal (and non trolling) opinion is that anyone who complains of losing because of ECM just got outplayed by people better prepared.

Posted - 2011.04.16 14:33:00 - [136]

 

Originally by: Lara Dontral

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Let's look at the facts:

People train alts specifically to fly ECM boats. Even with the nerfs to the Falcon, people still have alts dedicated to flying this ship, and people will avoid confrontations with superior numbers because of this ship.

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People train alts to market trade, does that mean market trading alts are overpowered?

If it wasn't a ECM ship, it would be something else that people trained for, at that point wouldn't we be having the same discussion?

If people are opening and paying for a second account, then they are going to train for what suits their play best. Market trader or ECM boat - they are both derived from the same concept of suiting a persons style of play. You can't really use that reason as justification.

Posted - 2011.04.16 14:41:00 - [138]

 

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As long as your fleet has more then 500 ships, the enemy falcons will be rendered useless. Falcon is thrash against fleets this size.

Since 99.99% pvp is of this sort, hence falcon is underpowered. Falcon ECM should be special AOE ECM of 50km to be viable (so that a falcon can jam whole blobs)

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This.

I repeat again. falcon is underwhelming. it needs a huge buff. At least on tank and effectiveness. If a falcon cant disable at least 10 ships, it will be difficult to use it in a fleet fight without getting ****d.

Whats the point of a ship which cant survive a fleet fight? I rather fly hugs, ****s, or arazu's then a falcon.

same point goes to pilgrim. it is very underwhelming in fleet fights. It should be changed to "everyone in the same grid gets tracking disrupted" for it to be viable in large fleets. same goes to ecm.

Posted - 2011.04.16 14:55:00 - [140]

 

Originally by: Lara Dontral

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Originally by: rofflesausage

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SmartBombs

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I sure wish I knew where to find 50km range Smartbombs.

You don't need 50KM smartbombs, you need a warp-in point (jamming does not stop you from warping).
We have also successfully taken cloakys down while they are going from gate to gate, Falcons included. It's one of the oldest uses of smartbombs, but still effective.
A dead ship can't jam.

Originally by: rofflesausage

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Jam the other ship / ECM burst

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Combating ECM with ECM shouldn't be the most effective answer.

Why not? (not that I think it's the most effective way to counter)
You counter DPS with more DPS.
You counter blobs with bigger blobs.
What's wrong with ECM countering ECM?

ECM also plays an important role in killing off remote repping.

Originally by: rofflesausage

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Destroy the other ship

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Hard to do when you're jammed.

Bring friends. Unless you come across an insanely heavy ECM fleet, the entire fleet is not going to be perma jammed. Even a simple lone HAC that isn't jammed can cause havok to a ECM boat.

Originally by: rofflesausage

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Cause the other ship to warp off (call it primary)

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Only works if the ships with enough range to hit it aren't jammed.

Agreed. But if you're in a situation where ALL of your fleet can be jammed, you've simply been outplayed by the other side.

Originally by: rofflesausage

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Neut it if in range (unlikely, I appreciate)

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Very unlikely most of the time. Also, a Curse would be primaried by the Falcon anyway, and probably by his entire fleet.

No argument here, but it only takes a mistake from the ECM pilot to make it a possibility.

Originally by: rofflesausage

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FOF missiles

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That's only feasable in 1v1. If the Falcon is part of a group, your FoF missiles are just as likely to go after them, or after drones. The occasional stray FoF missile isn't going to scare off the Falcon.

If you have a few people in fleet who can use them, those few soon turn into a lot. I'd like to see some tweaks to FOF myself, but there has been times they have helped me out (although I wouldn't go as far as to say they've saved me)

Originally by: rofflesausage

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ECCM (it's surprisingly effective)

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Not nearly as effective as it should be.

I respectfully disagree here. ECCM shouldn't be a "I can't get jammed" module, but should mean that the ECM boats have to use more jams on you.
This is exactly what it does. More jams on you = less other people jammed = more DPS to the ECM boat.

Originally by: rofflesausage

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My personal (and non trolling) opinion is that anyone who complains of losing because of ECM just got outplayed by people better prepared.

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I've won because of ECM, I've lost because of ECM. I've seen fleets that should have won lose because ECM mechanics allowed two ships to be jammed consistently for over five minutes. Two missed jams were not enough to give the victims a good enough opening. ECM is fine, being able to jam ships for several minutes consistently is not.

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If someone was jammed for 5 minutes, then they came across a heavy ECM fleet. I stand by the opinion that they came with the correct tools to win the battle in that situation.

ECM is annoying when it happens to you, I don't disagree there, but both sides are free to use it at the end of the day.

-sorry for formatting, don't have time to sort it out.

Posted - 2011.04.16 15:12:00 - [142]

 

Edited by: Lara Dontral on 16/04/2011 15:14:02

Originally by: Straight Edged

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im not joking at all. both curse and falcon are really underwhelming in large fleets.

While huginn and arazu's are generally good in any situation to have. Looking at ECm by itself is very short sighted. the ECm ships arent any more overwhelming then 80km points and webs the other recons can initiate, without having to opt for paper tank the falcon has.

If so called balance is achieved, falcon should be good in all situations like the hugs and raps. So they should get a buff to fleet fights. for example, Grid-wide or AOE ecm and tracking disrupting

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The problem I have is that an ECM boat can completely unbalance small gang warfare. In a large engagement, ECM boats get primaried because there are enough opposing ships that they cannot all be jammed. A Falcon is capable of completely negating 2-3 battlecruisers, or partially negating as many as 4.

And before anyone says "Herp it's hard for a Falcon to jam four targets derp", shut up...I've done it multiple times. It's not 100% jams on everyone, but even keeping them jammed every other cycle is still enough to let the rest of my fleet tear them apart before they kill me. Worst case scenario, I warp 150km away, cloak, warp back, then resume jamming. This can sometimes be accomplished before my jam cycles even reset. Even if I can't keep people jammed and have to keep running, the sheer fact that their fleet has to ignore my other fleet mates to chase me all over gives us an edge you wouldn't see with other ewar boats.

In a large engagement, this is equal to negating perhaps 5-10% of the opposing force. In a small engagement, however, this can mean that a single ship is nullifying up to 50% of the opposing force.

The big problem is that there's no logical way to boost ECM ships in fleet fights without also throwing off their balance in small gang warfare. As it currently stands, every gang wants a Falcon because of how effective they are. There shouldn't be any one ship that everyone feels they need in their gang in order to compete, or just to feel safe.

Like I've already said, imposing a stacking penalty or diminishing returns would balance ECM nicely without gimping them into uselessness.

Posted - 2011.04.16 15:23:00 - [144]

 

Thats why i said.

Falcon needs a buff. However you want it to be nerfed. It doesnt compute at all.

The problem with falcon, is that it is too easily countered by simply bringing 500+ ships. Where the same magnitude of falcons would still be rendered useless (unlike cranking up the numbers of drakes/geddons/logistics/huggins/rappiers/arazu's which are still very effective at huge magnitudes.

Because of current gameplay, small gang being weak to ECM has not enough logic to cause a nerf on falcon, as game centres around bringing more numbers. Its OK if the have a falcon, all i have to do is bring 5 more drakes then its fine.

After all, rather then bringing falcon, i rather bring a maller and bridge in 500 ships on your gang. falcon or not, you are going to lose the engagement.

Posted - 2011.04.16 15:38:00 - [146]

 

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The problem I have is that an ECM boat can completely unbalance small gang warfare.

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And so can a Curse. My Falcon can't stop someone MWDing back to a gate, my Curse can and more.

Posted - 2011.04.16 16:02:00 - [148]

 

Originally by: Lara Dontral

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Originally by: NoLimit Soldier

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Anyone else think that the proof of ECM NOT being overpowered lies within the results of the alliance tournaments?

I mean its small gang where ECM shines the most and still didn't win.

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What are the rules of the tournament, exactly?

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Do I look like google?

The match I was referencing was the final between pandemic legion and hydra. Hydra had 3 rooks (out of 9 ships) and got curbstomped by pandemic because (SHOCKER) they used ECCM.

Posted - 2011.04.16 16:24:00 - [150]

 

ECM should work like sensor damps currently work and sensor damps should be tracking disruptors against missiles.

Which is why gallente have to go in close and caldari have to throw in some rails.