Posted - 2011.04.11 10:32:00 - [62]

 

While all 3 are vile and despicable, and deserving of a bullet, there will be no freedom for my people while the Amarrian leadership lives.

Therefore, my last bullet, indeed, my dying breath will be aimed at the eradication of the Amarrian ruling class.

Only then, will the Matari know freedom, only then will the warriors of Ushra'Khan rest.

We come for our people!

Posted - 2011.04.11 11:44:00 - [64]

 

Originally by: Korvan Hraldir Davanev

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Originally by: Lyn Farel

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I am pretty sure if an amarrian loyalist did a similar post involving a last energy cell in a pulsegun and 3 targets to shoot - a freedom fighter, a republic general and a blooder - most of the matari loyalists speaking here would have been offended.

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Nope not offended at all - we are enemies, I would expect it. By the way I would shoot the blooder - mad dogs need putting down.

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I am not offended either by this discussion, but some amarrians are obviously, and I am absolutely sure that a lot of Matari would have been either outraged in my hypothetical case.

Posted - 2011.04.11 16:11:00 - [66]

 

Originally by: Korvan Hraldir Davanev

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Grounded today by a software upgrade to the ships sysstems so I thought I would pass a little time by posing a qustion one of my staff asked me.

End of a firefight, down to your last bullet, 3 fleeing targets and no time to reload

a) Amarrian Bishop
b) Ammatar Admiral
c) Cartel Slave ring boss

Only time and ammo to finish one of them. Who gets your last bullet?

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The fuelstorage of the dropship, theyre about to enter?

Posted - 2011.04.11 22:44:00 - [68]

 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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surely you're aware that no society in history has ever done away with crime.

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There's no crime in Nation?

Comrades, take note!

Posted - 2011.04.11 23:17:00 - [70]

 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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Similarly, the Nation's idea of society is one that differs radically from the common conception of what a "society" is.

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Well that's half the beauty, isn't it?

Originally by: Arian Jenneth

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A society in which unlimited decision-making capacity rests (literally, not legally) in precisely one person is not worthy of the name.

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True Slaves and (especially) True Citizens are very capable of making decisions. I mean honestly, the computational ability needed for one entity to control so many people is above that of any computing device devised by man.

Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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a crime.

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You really pay attention to those CONCORD-issued ratings?

Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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You're not a society, Mr. Jaiga. You're a collection of murder victims.

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Perhaps the most eloquent statement against Nation I've heard, and yet sadly false. The only murder going is the murderous rejection of Unity in favor of the all-powerful individualism (which, mind you, is responsible for literally all pain experienced by mankind).

Posted - 2011.04.12 02:20:00 - [72]

 

Mm. Two of you. Very well; in the end, there's only really one: Kuvakei.

Originally by: Rek Jaiga

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Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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Similarly, the Nation's idea of society is one that differs radically from the common conception of what a "society" is.

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Well that's half the beauty, isn't it?

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Beauty we can't trust that you are not simply programmed to see.

Quote:

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Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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A society in which unlimited decision-making capacity rests (literally, not legally) in precisely one person is not worthy of the name.

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True Slaves and (especially) True Citizens are very capable of making decisions.

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Operative word: "unlimited."

Nation contains one, and only one, whole person. The rest of you have been edited to suit his whims. It is possible, just barely, that this has not happened to a specific individual yet, but we cannot possibly trust that any opinion of yours is your own.

Quote:

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You really pay attention to those CONCORD-issued ratings?

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No. I pay attention to the visceral reaction of humanity to the dawn of your present state. Kuvakei committed a crime of utmost arrogance: the annihilation of human will. Not its bending or subversion; the tearing of it out by the root.

You are simply the victims of that crime: not to be hated, only pitied.

Quote:

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The only murder going is the murderous rejection of Unity in favor of the all-powerful individualism (which, mind you, is responsible for literally all pain experienced by mankind).

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Pain of the "literal" sort is caused by nerve endings firing in response to stimuli. This does do a certain amount to safeguard individuals, yes.

Pain of a more figurative sort, however, may be felt by a whole community, or even a whole nation. Even were you to emerge victorious, your sad utopia would still experience pain: if not at the hands of the rogue drones, then at those of your own creator, for he is but human, and incapable of perfection.

In the end, Sansha's Nation is well-named: it is individualistic in the truest and most unique sense, for in the end, it serves the ultimate empowerment of the individual-- an individual: Kuvakei.

Hm. No wonder he gets on so well with the Blood Raiders.

Originally by: Ghost Hunter

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1. The aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

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People, yes. By implication, the unexpurgated version. As opposed to, you know, "people, edited and revised."

You're not "people" anymore, Hunter, or if you are you won't be for long. You're maimed echoes of the people you used to be.

Sansha's Nation has room for only one controlling will, and you're not it. Kuvakei doesn't get to have a "society" all on his lonesome.

Quote:

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2. The community of people living in a particular region and having SHAREd customs, laws, and organizations

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There's that inconvenient word, "people," again. Plural. Also "community." You don't get to have a community of one; it's defined by the coming together of individuals.

Quote:

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Yet all the same, it is a society, and Crime has no place in Master Sansha's Promised Land.

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Are you sure? Some True Citizen with a little too much lingering free will breaking the occasional rule?

You could never admit it to us if it were true, could you?

... But if it is, Kuvakei will never stand for it, Hunter. And that is why, even if I'm not wholly right, already, I will be before very long.

There will be one, increasingly depressed person in Sansha's Nation, and a lot of maimed puppets. If I wrote it, you'd be parodying various different aspects of what a whole, intact, semi-healthy (they're never really healthy, are they) person is.

... but I doubt it'll be anything that poetic. Kuvakei saw his paradise burned to ash, and will never let it happen again. And the drive to stop it will mean cranking down on anything that could cause so much as a tremor in his transcendent perfection.

He's mad, Hunter. Obsessed.

But, even if you can see that, you can't stop it, can you?...

Posted - 2011.04.12 05:57:00 - [74]

 

With apologies to Mr. Davanev for the continuing derail...

Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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Leaving aside the oddity of shooting, first, the person who, in your eyes, does most to erode the society of a group of people you would apparently like to see wholly eradicated (you are still EoM, aren't you, Koronakesh?)

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Certainly. However, I've no interest in the moral decline of the population in any of the societies pre-termination. You can argue that the erosion caused would help in the destruction of the temporal states, but that's off on a tangent that's only incidentally related to the ultimate objective anyway.

Quote:

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If the individual slave trader you express such disdain for acts for selfish reasons, how is he then different from the average merchant or Amarrian citizen trying to eke out a living in a vast empire? Do you honestly believe the Amarrian slave-merchant cares more for the souls of his wares than for his account balance?

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You're more likely to find an Imperial merchant that cares about the souls of his stock than a Cartel one. The Imperial merchant is operating in a system that is ostensibly geared to the redemption of those caught in it, be that convicted prisoners, war captives or inherited status. It's a fine enough idea, I suppose, however tragically mistaken in its implementation it may be. Your Cartel holds no comparable higher moral authority it is theoretically beholden to, as with the Imperial system.

Quote:

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The Cartel plays by different rules from the societies its agents work within, yes, but the alternative to such an underworld structure is no structure at all. If you find order desirable, the Cartel's agents are less parasites, and more necessary supplements to a civil order that cannot possibly cover everyone.

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You're not a necessary supplement to a faithful community. Simply put, the order I find desirable has no place for your structure in it. The only 'necessary' thing about your organization and yourself for my faith are your deaths.

Posted - 2011.04.12 08:18:00 - [76]

 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 12/04/2011 08:20:13
Three..

All right, then.

Originally by: Rek Jaiga

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Sounds like the problem of other minds.

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Superficially, perhaps.

The "problem of other minds" does not itself take into account a verifiable entity with the power to extract minds-- of which you are an agent.

Quote:

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How do I similarly not know you've not been programmed by ISK and hedonism to believe in the power of the individual over the collective of Unity?

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You, perhaps more than most people, don't. That is, there's good reason to suspect that, even if evidence warranted another conclusion, you can't ever reach it.

Quote:

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You just pick up the proverbial newspaper, see what's going on, and suddenly become an expert?

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My antagonism to your cause, and my experience with it, goes back a little farther than the present incursions. Ask Hunter about my history with the Nation. He may remember.

Quote:

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Kuvakei has Seen the True Path.

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I'll not bother to argue directly with your religious convictions.

Quote:

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By rejecting the self we become infinitely empowered. Master Kuvakei has sacrificed his own time and effort that he could be using to walk the Path in order to help the common man take the first steps. Nation suddenly sounds much less like a personal empowerment scheme, doesn't it?

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The contrary: it suddenly sounds much more like a classic cult. That is, a personal empowerment scheme.

Originally by: Ghost Hunter

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Do you only see the way of Nation as a less than human way, Aria Jenneth?

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I see Kuvakei as deeply human, or at least still possessing classically human flaws of arrogance and pride. These find expression in his work.

... Which is not, itself, human.

Quote:

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"Edited and revised", a more direct approach to commanding our own evolutionary path.

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Ironically, it seems to me that the idea that we are fit editors of our own natures is among the notions that would be best edited out.

Quote:

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Tell me, why would any of us want to be the controlling will?

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In a word? Megalomania.

Quote:

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No other sees as He does, or Sansha's Nation would not be the only one in the cluster.

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No other? Few, thankfully. None? I doubt it. It's a big universe.

Kuvakei's tragedy is the result of inspiration meeting opportunity under very particular circumstances. What he wanted was never going to be, regardless, and still won't, even if he wins. However, the events that produced him are likely to remain unique for quite a while.

Most arrogant fools and/or madmen just never get the chance.

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I think you attribute the requirement of 'free will' to individuals to validate your idea of a community.

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You misunderstand my approach, Hunter. Though I use the term, I don't even believe in "free will." Individuals, like communities, are ridiculously complicated masses of related forces, of cause and effect.

... But because the interplay is so complicated, "free will" might as well exist, even though it doesn't.

Kuvakei? He's a meddler, a man who thinks he's worthy to directly select what goes into the stew pot of human interaction, what limits the human brain plays within. He's simultaneously too arrogant and too weak to accept people as they are, so he tries to make them "better."

Poor fool.

Your "unity" is to a human community what a bundle of flag poles is to a forest.

Quote:

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In the end there will be Utopia. His drive to reach that is incomparably noble.

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Utopia has been the dream of millions. Comparing his drive to theirs ... what mostly seems "incomparable" is the consequences.

Quote:

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Why would I ever want to stop that, when all there is left in this cluster is greed, war, dead gods, and hedonism?

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All you need to do is ask the average Achur scientist what there is in this universe, and you'll get a partial list, if that's to your taste, that will last hours. The same is true of a parent.

Your voice of "hope" arises from black despair, your "utopia" from cynicism.

Posted - 2011.04.12 09:12:00 - [78]

 

Edited by: Korvan Hraldir Davanev on 12/04/2011 09:12:00

Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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If you are content with "moral degradation" expressing itself through genuine chaos, then yes, the Cartel's an appropriate target. However, I suspect you'll find that chaos in your social underbelly does a lot to undermine civil, and moral, authority.

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Although I hate to agree with the Cartel on anything, I must side with Ms Jenneth here. The debate reminds me a quote from a book I once read, forge the author.
From the ruler of a society - something along the lines of:

"If we must have crime with us let us at least make sure we have organised crime."

Posted - 2011.04.12 15:20:00 - [80]

 

Originally by: Chinwe Rhei

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Originally by: Korvan Hraldir Davanev

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"If we must have crime with us let us at least make sure we have organised crime."

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By contrast organized crime takes the criminal out of society and into it's own self-perpetuating culture and so sabotages that society's ability to deliver justice, compensate, rehabilitate and heal.
It is what creates that festering underbelly of crime in the first place, until it's values become so dissociated and antithetic to those of the greater whole that it splits into an external threat that by it's very nature is incompatible with the culture that spawned it.
That's what pirate factions (like the Cartel) are to our empires and we've seen it time and again. They're not in any way complementary to us, least of all an integral part of our civilization but rather we're in an implicit and perpetual state of war since their identity is simply having values opposite to our own.

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Please do not take my comments as an approval of organised crime in general or the cartel specifically - it is neither.
Given the inevitability of crime as a consequence of the interaction between the selfish nature of human beings and the attempts of society to impose moralitiy I prefer "organised crime" to the more chaotic variety. Several reasons for this.

- Criminals often better regulate and limit excessive criminal behaviour better than the state does - it interferes with business when some idiot violates societies rules too openly or provocatively.

- it is much easier for society to interact with a single grouping of criminals than it is with individuals.

- organised crime often provides goods and services which society has mistakenly embargoed through excessive moral zeal. These services are going to be provided regardless and I would rather this is done in an efficient manner.

A certain level of "crime" is the grease which helps the machinery of society to function.

That said none of the above applies to the Cartel. That organisation has clearly overreached the acceptable limits for a criminal organisation and is taking on the trappings and pretensions of a nation state.

Posted - 2011.04.12 19:45:00 - [82]

 

D) Software upgrade deletes your ship's initialization codes and your ship can't shoot after it's shut down and powered back on.

Posted - 2011.04.12 22:02:00 - [84]

 

Originally by: Chinwe Rhei

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Sansha's Nation itself is not in any way different, it too was once just "organized crime".

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Well, now, that's one way to offend the Nation and the Dominations simultaneously. It's not very accurate, however. The Guristas and the Cartel are directly comparable, as are the Serpentis; the Blooders less so. Sansha's Nation?

Sansha Kuvakei was a Caldari (and if you don't think I find that embarrassing ...) industrialist-- weapons, mostly, if I recall-- turned starry-eyed utopian. The Nation was more "shining vision of human potential" than anything criminal at its outset. Pity what came of it.

The Nation does compete with us in certain classically "criminal" enterprises, but the "crime" bit seems sort of incidental to its basic nature, which is to say, "hostile experiment run amok, along with its creator."

Posted - 2011.04.14 16:39:00 - [86]

 

Originally by: Jaik7

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we lost another thread to the sanshas.

topic derailed

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Can I plant a flag now and declare victory?

Posted - 2011.04.14 21:05:00 - [88]

 

If i had an infantry railgun, and there was only one door? all 3.

But, given the circumstances you have set. i'd likely have a sidearm, so none of them, That last bullet will wake me up in a clone, i keep my clone data reasonably well updated, and carry a lifesign monitor at all times. I will never be a slave again.

That said, i would see which one was running the slowest, considering the options, i think the Bishop would likely end up with a Khumaak ((sp?)) shaped hole in the back of his head.

Posted - 2011.04.14 22:47:00 - [90]

 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga

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Originally by: Jaik7

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we lost another thread to the sanshas.

topic derailed

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Can I plant a flag now and declare victory?

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Confirming that yes you can, this thread was officially won my Sansha's Nation

In any case, Jaik7 this wasn't exactly a quality content thread from the start, certainly the whole point was to ruffle some feathers of those pilots still loyal to the Amarr Empire, the contributions on what exactly constitutes a society might have been off topic, but certainly had more depth than merely trying to annoy the Empire supporters.