| Author |
Topic |
Lu'ay al Din
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard |
Posted - 2011.03.26 13:03:00 - [ 31]
Publically asking for answers to a question whilst holding a predetermined mindset is why you seek an answer in the first place Luna Mori. We have arrived at the most basic and fundamental reasons why Tribalism exists, especially among the Minmatar. Seeking answers to questions we cannot answer ourselves and closing our minds and hearts to His knowledge makes one seeks comfort in chaotic social stuctures to not feel alone in the struggle. The very roots of Tribalism, Barbarism and Fear.
Your question was fair and it shows me that there is still hope for the Minmatar. Questioning everything but God, His Glory and his Chosen Ones is an integral part of civilization as it should be. It is called progress. It shows you have the capability to overcome your singlemindedness and fear for His judgement but sadly your answer indicates you are not ready yet.
We are not alone in our struggle for answers, we have The Scriptures, His guidance, His leadership, His love; the exact opposite of what tribalism can give you and what you are questioning or are not sure about.
Alas, I can only give you advice from a more advanced point of view that probably would be too complicated for you too understand, but with proper guidance you show promise to receive His mercy nevertheless.
Struggle on , brave one, struggle on.
*real tears of compassion and sadness roll down Lu'ay's cheecks when he closes his comms. |
Jev North
Ghost Festival
Naraka. |
Posted - 2011.03.26 13:07:00 - [ 32]
Edited by: Jev North on 26/03/2011 13:08:01 Originally by: Sinti Vailatti
I see what you're getting at, but it's kind of a creaky analogy.. lasers are monochromatic by nature. It's in part how the self-amplifying "lasing" effect works, and how come they're so nice and destructive. A focused beam of boring ol' bog-standard visible light is just that. Not that it can't be powerful -- I've a more industrially-oriented friend who is doing absolutely marvelous things with solar furnaces and separators -- but it's less use as a weapon or tool because properly focusing a higher bandwidth beam over longer distances is a big pain. I'm sure there's some kind of philosophical lesson in there, hm. |
Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
|
Posted - 2011.03.26 14:00:00 - [ 33]
Originally by: Lu'ay al Din
Publically asking for answers to a question whilst holding a predetermined mindset is why you seek an answer in the first place Luna Mori. We have arrived at the most basic and fundamental reasons why Tribalism exists, especially among the Minmatar. Seeking answers to questions we cannot answer ourselves and closing our minds and hearts to His knowledge makes one seeks comfort in chaotic social stuctures to not feel alone in the struggle. The very roots of Tribalism, Barbarism and Fear.
Your question was fair and it shows me that there is still hope for the Minmatar. Questioning everything but God, His Glory and his Chosen Ones is an integral part of civilization as it should be. It is called progress. It shows you have the capability to overcome your singlemindedness and fear for His judgement but sadly your answer indicates you are not ready yet.
We are not alone in our struggle for answers, we have The Scriptures, His guidance, His leadership, His love; the exact opposite of what tribalism can give you and what you are questioning or are not sure about.
Alas, I can only give you advice from a more advanced point of view that probably would be too complicated for you too understand, but with proper guidance you show promise to receive His mercy nevertheless.
Struggle on , brave one, struggle on.
*real tears of compassion and sadness roll down Lu'ay's cheecks when he closes his comms.
Tribalism cannot give leadership, guidance, or love? Mr. al Din, I strongly suggest you go do some actual research on the Matari people, and stop making yourself appear quite so foolish. The tribe's core purpose is as a unifying body for a group of people who share common ideals and goals. Every step down the tribal ladder, from the Tribe as a whole to the smallest subclan and single family, exists only due to strong leadership. Matari are as capable of love, of compassion, of dreaming as anyone else. We united under strong, emergent leadership to kick you all the hell out of our space, now didnt we? Was fear involved? Of course, who wouldnt be frightened to rebel against those who hold absolute power over you? Love, compassion, anger, also were all involved, mr. Din, love of their fellow tribesmen and women, anger for those that had beaten, ****d, killed. Gudiance for my people is found in a wise word from an elder or relative, perhaps a bit of advice from the shaman, or even in a conversation with a friend. I love how the Amarr love to attempt to dehumanize us... maybe it makes your brutality a bit easier on your conscience. I am studying your scriptures, mr. Din... and I find them to be full of things we already know. |
Korvan Hraldir Davanev
Silver and Gold Enterpises |
Posted - 2011.03.26 14:26:00 - [ 34]
Tribe to me means a combination of 'my people' and my nation. As a Thukker the closest I have to a Nation State is my tribe, a lose bond but a still bond. The tribe is what gives a sense of identity, of belonging. We share a culture, a history and a collection of shared values. Whilst I am free to serve my own ends and seek gain for my own advantages I should always keep in mind the needs of the tribe and the well being of my fellow Thukker. If I prosper I should see that the tribe prosper along with me.
A Thukker I have never met before can come to me for aid and recieve it - within reason. I would not protect him from the consequences of any misdeed, as judged by our tribal traditions, but I would do all I could to ensure his fair and honourable treatment. If he seeks work he can have it, but I have the right to expect a fair days work for a fair days pay. If he needs money he can have it at no greater rate of interest than I would lose from the bank, but I expect repaymnt.
Relations with the other Minmatar tribes can be more difficult and I believe are more likely to change over time. We share traditions and history, but some of that history is of conflict. For now we are allies, possibly more, I do not know if these warm relations will continue although I hope they will. We share too much to cast it aside lightly. The Republic would to my mind be better thought of as a Tribal Commonwealth, an area of space and set of political institutions created for the mutual benfit of the tribes - a version of our homeworld writ large across the stars. However I reject any claim from the Republic to a say in internal tribal affairs.
A Sebiestor or Brutor has no automatic right to call on my aid, unless it is for direct support against our mutual enemies, but likewise I hould not go out of my way to harm the interests of another tribe, except by the way of constructive competition.
I treat the Federation in a similar way only with more caution
The Nefantar who returned to the Republic after the return of the elders are to my mind a valid tribe. I accept the Elders judgement in this even if it feels uncomfortable. Individual Nefantar must prove themselves over time but for now the newly reconstituted tribe as a whole has the benefit of doubt - just.
The Ammatar and those of my own former kin who side with the Angels are no longer Matari and should be treated as the enemies they clearly are.
|
Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
|
Posted - 2011.03.26 14:45:00 - [ 35]
Originally by: Korvan Hraldir Davanev
Tribe to me means a combination of 'my people' and my nation. As a Thukker the closest I have to a Nation State is my tribe, a lose bond but a still bond. The tribe is what gives a sense of identity, of belonging. We share a culture, a history and a collection of shared values. Whilst I am free to serve my own ends and seek gain for my own advantages I should always keep in mind the needs of the tribe and the well being of my fellow Thukker. If I prosper I should see that the tribe prosper along with me.
A Thukker I have never met before can come to me for aid and recieve it - within reason. I would not protect him from the consequences of any misdeed, as judged by our tribal traditions, but I would do all I could to ensure his fair and honourable treatment. If he seeks work he can have it, but I have the right to expect a fair days work for a fair days pay. If he needs money he can have it at no greater rate of interest than I would lose from the bank, but I expect repaymnt.
Relations with the other Minmatar tribes can be more difficult and I believe are more likely to change over time. We share traditions and history, but some of that history is of conflict. For now we are allies, possibly more, I do not know if these warm relations will continue although I hope they will. We share too much to cast it aside lightly. The Republic would to my mind be better thought of as a Tribal Commonwealth, an area of space and set of political institutions created for the mutual benfit of the tribes - a version of our homeworld writ large across the stars. However I reject any claim from the Republic to a say in internal tribal affairs.
A Sebiestor or Brutor has no automatic right to call on my aid, unless it is for direct support against our mutual enemies, but likewise I hould not go out of my way to harm the interests of another tribe, except by the way of constructive competition.
I treat the Federation in a similar way only with more caution
The Nefantar who returned to the Republic after the return of the elders are to my mind a valid tribe. I accept the Elders judgement in this even if it feels uncomfortable. Individual Nefantar must prove themselves over time but for now the newly reconstituted tribe as a whole has the benefit of doubt - just.
The Ammatar and those of my own former kin who side with the Angels are no longer Matari and should be treated as the enemies they clearly are.
Well said, on all points. |
Lu'ay al Din
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard |
Posted - 2011.03.26 15:07:00 - [ 36]
I still do not remeber I was talking to you Ava Starfire. Your opinion is so far from mine and His truth that you really should consider if it is even worth talking to me.
However as you have taken the liberties of adressing your concerns to my person and proving every point I made with every syllable you speak I am really struggling to find a correct response without disrespecting you. I said that Tribalism is based on trying to give to eachother what a civilized society can get from God, his Chosen ones, his Truth, his Word and His guidance the proper way. You are now saying the same thing but then from the other side of the wall.
Mind you, It is not Amarr that built that wall, it is Tribalistic Minmatar that cannot see beyond their own built bricks of understanding.
through your Tribalistic mindset and continuous search for comfort, guidance and leadership amongst your fellow kinsmen and showing this protectionism of a fellow tribeswoman asking a question that very well hits the essence of your existance, or the lack of that essence rather, is completely derailing this discussion.
Luna Mori allready stated that she cannot use my opinion to give her a good view of what she wants to think of what Tribalism is. That should be enough for you to leave my comments for what they are and not selfishly project them on yourself; and it should be enough for me to start to pray in further silence that she will continue to educate herself.
keep reading those Scriptures though! |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
|
Posted - 2011.03.26 15:27:00 - [ 37]
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 26/03/2011 15:29:41 Originally by: Korvan Hraldir Davanev
The Ammatar [...] are no longer Matari and should be treated as the enemies they clearly are.
They clearly are ? Originally by: Ava Starfire
The tribe's core purpose is as a unifying body for a group of people who share common ideals and goals. Every step down the tribal ladder, from the Tribe as a whole to the smallest subclan and single family, exists only due to strong leadership.
All this discussion is very interesting in itself, and so I wonder what if an individual, part of tribe, shares different or even opposite beliefs of his tribe's ? For example, taking a tribe that strongly believes in Shakor's values, and one member of this tribe strongly disagreeing. How far can he express his beliefs ? How far can he hope to make a point ? And is he doomed to remain in the same tribe, or is he free to leave, and thus, be part of another tribe sharing his beliefs ? Is he tied to his tribe by blood or by ideals ? I probably think each tribe has its own levels of democracy, some may also only lay on the elder's voices while some others might accept everyone's view, though I wonder what are your thoughts on this ? |
Cipher7 |
Posted - 2011.03.26 15:51:00 - [ 38]
Edited by: Cipher7 on 26/03/2011 17:39:28
Tribalism can be as simple or complex as we choose to see it.
You can say idealistically that all humans should love each other, that we should all strive for the greater good, we're all in this together, blah blah blah.
At the end of the day we love our own children the best. It's not a "choice," the truth is humans aren't in control half as much as they like to think they are. You can pretend all you like about being an "advanced" society but meat will always taste good to you no matter how much you pretend otherwise.
I don't have any qualms about saying that I like my family better than yours, and if you say otherwise about yourself then you're either a liar or on boosters.
From this honest self-assessment is a beginning : that charity starts at home, firstly being good to yourself, then your family, then your clan, tribe, etc work outward in concentric circles.
If everybody did this there would be no hunger or war.
This is not "barbaric" or backward, it is advanced thinking based on REALITY instead of pipe dreams that say I should love everybody because we're all human, get outta here with that nonesense.
C7 |
Korvan Hraldir Davanev
Silver and Gold Enterpises |
Posted - 2011.03.26 15:59:00 - [ 39]
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 26/03/2011 15:29:41
Originally by: Korvan Hraldir Davanev
The Ammatar [...] are no longer Matari and should be treated as the enemies they clearly are.
They clearly are ?
Originally by: Ava Starfire
The tribe's core purpose is as a unifying body for a group of people who share common ideals and goals. Every step down the tribal ladder, from the Tribe as a whole to the smallest subclan and single family, exists only due to strong leadership.
All this discussion is very interesting in itself, and so I wonder what if an individual, part of tribe, shares different or even opposite beliefs of his tribe's ? For example, taking a tribe that strongly believes in Shakor's values, and one member of this tribe strongly disagreeing. How far can he express his beliefs ? How far can he hope to make a point ? And is he doomed to remain in the same tribe, or is he free to leave, and thus, be part of another tribe sharing his beliefs ? Is he tied to his tribe by blood or by ideals ?
I probably think each tribe has its own levels of democracy, some may also only lay on the elder's voices while some others might accept everyone's view, though I wonder what are your thoughts on this ?
On the point of the Ammatar I stand by my original judgement. I find many people in this universe, of all races and creeds with a desire to complicate apparently simple matters. Personaly I prefer simplicity. The Ammatar have chosen to side with the enemies of my race, therefore they are my enemy. This view saves confusion when trying to establish who to shoot. On the second point I am sure that the different rules apply to different tribes and even clans, I can only speak for my own and to some degree for associated clans. A tribe is a large body and as such will contain a variety of opinion on almost any subject, as will a clan. Each individual can speak their mind to his fellows and openly at clan and tribal meetings the later only if he has the rank or social to justify a hearing). As long as he works for the good of the clan/tribe, and abides by such collective decisions as are made an individual can remain in place even if he openly disagrees with the decision. Much the same as a federation citizen who disagrees with a law my argue and lobby for its reppeal whilst obeying it whilst it is in force. If a person finds himself in open and sustained disagreement with the will of his clan on a truly significant issue he is free to seperate himself from his fellows and find another clan more agreeable to him. My own half-sister has rather more 'progressive' views than myself. Personally I am content with limited Republic, the "Tribal Commonwealth" of my first post. Kosiri argues for more power and centralised authority for the institutions of the Republic. I lead my Caravan and as our fathers eldest child lead the clan council. My sister, as daughter of a chief and a capsuleer in her own right speaks against me frequently. Most of the time my own view prevails but not always. No one has to leave the clan, let alone the tribe. Sometimes a political division is too great for compromise, for Thukkers this would leave to the formation of an offshoot caravan if the dissenting party where large enough. If the group were smaller then they would simply join a caravan with views closer to their own. Most larger caravans contain members for several clans with similar, or at least non conflicting political outlooks. |
Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
|
Posted - 2011.03.26 16:03:00 - [ 40]
Edited by: Ava Starfire on 26/03/2011 16:12:19 Originally by: Lu'ay al Din
self righteous drivel
Thanks for showing how truly little you and yours understand of my people. Of course, it was only a confirmation of what we all already know. You attacked the institution of "tribalism", our system of living, and hence, in doing so, spoke out against something quite dear to me and mine. I replied. You know, like we do, every day, when we fight you. See you in space. EDIT- Oops, missed Lyn Farel's question. Captain Farel, if the Tribe, or Clan, or whatever unit, as a whole, has an opinion differing greatly from that of our leaders, we push for change. If that fails, we will place our trust in another, and remove the current elder or leader from their position. We tried the Gallentean system, and found it wanting. While I am no fan of Shakor, he at least acted. Midular spoke of wanting to welcome the Nefantar home, Shakor and the elder fleet saw to it that those Nefantar, and of course, Starkmanir, that wished to return had a chance, however small it was, of doing so. Worrying about whether what we are doing is the right thing is often worse than doing something. Actions speak louder than words, if you follow me. |
Ssakaa
Minmatar
Metropolis Moods |
Posted - 2011.03.26 19:38:00 - [ 41]
Dear Luna. Originally by: Ava Starfire
.. Midular spoke of wanting to welcome the nefantar home.(Emphasis mine)
Quote:
.. Worrying about whether what we are doing is the right thing is often worse than doing something.
I believe these observations answer your original question unequivocally. |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
|
Posted - 2011.03.26 21:38:00 - [ 42]
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Actions speak louder than words, if you follow me.
Indeed, though depending if they are wise or not. Thank you for your answers. For the answer concerning the individual in the tribe, and the answer concerning the tribe in the Republic. Naturally these seem to be ideal situations, and I am pretty sure the Republic has some tyrannical black sheeps here and there (like in any empire), of course, as usual. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah |
Posted - 2011.03.27 01:45:00 - [ 43]
Dear Cpt. Surionen, you said: Originally by: Ava Starfire
The tribe's core purpose is as a unifying body for a group of people who share common ideals and goals. Every step down the tribal ladder, from the Tribe as a whole to the smallest subclan and single family, exists only due to strong leadership.
This is most interesting, especially considering yor statment, that you Originally by: Ava Starfire
tried the Gallentean system, and found it wanting.
The tribalist approach to how a state should be constituted, which we might call political tribalism, indeed seems to put much more emphasis on unity than the Gallentean approach. I think, in a nutshell, political tribalism can bee understood - somewhat simplyfing the issue - as the position that the state should function as a family - albeit a large, extended one - would. I think, though, the danger therein is that a state might be reduced to exactly that: A large, extended family. But then, I agree that it is good for a state to be more unified than the libertarian Gallentean system assures. A philosopher once said: "Different men seek after happiness in different ways and by different means, and so make for themselves different modes of life and forms of government." So, maybe the citizens of the Republic will fare well with their shift away from a less unifying system. I'll pray for that, but in my opinion Midular was a better leader than Shakor will ever be. Regards, N. Mithra |
Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
|
Posted - 2011.03.27 01:56:00 - [ 44]
On Midular vs Shakor, overall, I agree. I am no fan of Shakor. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2011.03.27 02:06:00 - [ 45]
Feh, Midular's appeasement and coddling of the Ammatar and Amarrians both should have had her shot. She was no leader and never will be. After what that woman did, she should have been given the traitorous end she deserved. Shakor is far from my favorite person in New Eden, but he's still ten times the leader than that Midular *****. |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
|
Posted - 2011.03.27 13:48:00 - [ 46]
Well, that last statement was definitly very constructive, and cool headed. |
Aryanna Callibri |
Posted - 2011.03.27 17:42:00 - [ 47]
Edited by: Aryanna Callibri on 27/03/2011 17:42:40 Originally by: Luna Mori
I am trying to understand what is meant by tribalism to a Minmatar capsuleer. For example, in my opinion, it would be natural* for any Matari with a strong cultural and ethnic identity to consider the total abolition of slavery a central part of their ideology. Therefore, I would say that it is a pre-condition for any Matari tribalist.
There is much discussion concerning tribal heritage and faith, but what else might help define tribalism?
*Not that I'm suggesting environmental determinism over cultural.
Thank you Ms. Mori for putting this out here on the IGS...being half Brutor its giving me a chance to learn something about where I come from.  (edit for spelling) |
Korvan Hraldir Davanev
Silver and Gold Enterpises |
Posted - 2011.03.27 18:01:00 - [ 48]
Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
Feh, Midular's appeasement and coddling of the Ammatar and Amarrians both should have had her shot. She was no leader and never will be. After what that woman did, she should have been given the traitorous end she deserved. Shakor is far from my favorite person in New Eden, but he's still ten times the leader than that Midular *****.
Slightly harsher than my opnion of Midular, but not by a lot. Midular's dream was to move the Matari people onwards, away from their past and into what she believed would be a better future. Therefore I respect her intentions, her methods and the compromises she was prepared to make to ensure her vision came to pass I cannot accept. Shakor was the right man for a crisis but I don't see him as a long term, constructive leader. We need patience and political deftness to build a lasting political entity that can support and unite all the tribes without suffocating their uniqueness and individuality. That is not Shakor. Problem is that at the minute I don't see a likely alternative. |
Lu'ay al Din
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard |
Posted - 2011.03.27 18:34:00 - [ 49]
Midular was deaf to the masses, Shakor is blind as a bat, and looking how you all speak about the supposed Tribal leadership you are all best off with a mute. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2011.03.27 20:54:00 - [ 50]
Shakor is not a choice for long-term leadership, no. He is infinitely better than Midular, but we do need a change indeed. I doubt we'll see it any time soon, but a complete cleansing of the Republic's government and having it replaced by a proper Tribal Assembly representing all tribes well would be something to strive for.
While I'll give Midular points for intent, the means she used were treason at best. |
Cipher7 |
Posted - 2011.03.27 21:19:00 - [ 51]
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
A philosopher once said: "Different men seek after happiness in different ways and by different means, and so make for themselves different modes of life and forms of government."
This is exactly correct. While I do respect most forms of government, I think ours is the one that suits our sensibilites and needs. If Midular wants so much to "move forward" or whatever, then she should **** off and move to Sinq Liason or something. Shakor isn't a politician, but he's a hell of a Minmatar and our brother. The biggest problem in the universe is that different cultures and societies don't have respect for each other. By respect I don't mean kiss each others butts, I mean "to fully appreciate the capabilities of." The Federation did not respect the Caldari, hence losing them as Federation members and now having trouble with the Intaki. The Amarr don't respect anybody, hence the string of military defeats, from the Jovians, not to mention more recent losses of Providence and getting manhandled by the TLF. Pride goes before the fall. Midular is a capable politician, but she needs to learn loyalty and respect for her own roots, there's more than enough self-hating Matari out there. C7 |
Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2011.03.28 00:46:00 - [ 52]
This thread is dense with personal impressions and their own tribal culture thrown in the mix. Lets step back a bit.
If you go to the origins of tribalism you'll see that it is much a political structure and form of government as it is a social structure.
All 7 Matari tribes come from our home planet in Matar, and came to be due to the common ground between groups of people: mainly location, lifestyle and genetic similarities. In that tribe leadership would be necessary to settle affairs, whether it is disputes or plain organization, and how that leadership came to be recognized as such varies from tribe to tribe as much as it does from nation to nation.
The tribes are made up of clans, which is little more than another name for family. The difference in words I feel just emphases the importance of the family in the Minmatar culture as opposed to other cultures where perhaps where you work or what political party you belong to matters most. Clans have higher or lesser influence on their Tirbe based on the skill of their members, the functions they perform, popularity, wealth, deeds done, and hell, even charisma; therefore individuals within clans can greatly contribute to their influence.
Like a family, you can be born into a clan, you can get into one by marriage, you can be adopted, or you can even start your own, of course chances are you wont gain any significant influence or even recognition for several generations unless you happen to do something legendary or already have a strong following. You can, much like myself, be an orphan of sorts.
Long standing clans belong to a certain tribe because its founders most likely lived in where that tribe originated form in Matar. The Sebiestors for example, originally come from the Mikramurka continent in the northern artic region. Newer clans are perhaps more associated with their tribes because they come from a region of space that was settled by that particular tribe or their genetic ties.
There is also the matter of the Elders. The older members of the human race have always been sought for as a reminder of our roots and for advice, more because of their accumulated experiences that any one characteristic. Because the great importance matari place on clans, the older members of those clans are highly respected and influential.
In a more practical manner, Tribes are important in Minmatar society as long as Matari place importance in that structure, much like the Amarrian religion is important because of the people that believe in it.
Some of the minmatar who belong to less influential clans, have no clans, or simply don't hold a lot of importance in the tribal structure support clans or tribes not because they belong to them but because they relate or like their views ideas and opinions, much like you'd back a political party, which in turn adds to the clan's or tribe's influence.
In a short, Tribalism is a grassrooted social and political system driven by your support of your closest relations rather than votes, the share value of your corporation, or the outcome of a royal gladiator match. The inevitable consequence of the importance placed on your closes ties is a very strong sense of identity and individuality, present in most Minmatar.
Fly Fierce
|
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
|
Posted - 2011.03.28 12:53:00 - [ 53]
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 28/03/2011 12:53:38
Midular only tried to achieve peace somewhere, for which I admire her tenacity, by following the rules of the Republic. I do not know how she managed to remain in her position, even if left weakened with not a lot of influence, surrounded by hot-headed idiots and radicals pressuring her to act against what she believed in. And her main issue was probably, yes, not to have more listened to the change of governement system the people was asking for.
Oh, it has happened since then. I suppose they only forgot to remove the Republic title as well, considering how Shakor rules the whole entity. |
Sinti Vailatti
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
|
Posted - 2011.03.28 13:10:00 - [ 54]
But Neu,
What happens when those Elders become corrupt and put their own wants and desires before what is good for the people? Times change. What happens when the Elders are incapable or unwilling to change with the times?
|
Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2011.03.28 15:14:00 - [ 55]
Originally by: Lyn Farel
not to have more listened to the change of governement system the people was asking for.
When Midular was in power, the government system was a parliamentary democracy, which was always scorned as the Gallente way to do it. The change most people people where claiming for was a return to Tribalism and that we got. Shakor will be in power for as long as the tribes let him be there. Originally by: Sinti Vailatti
But Neu,
What happens when those Elders become corrupt and put their own wants and desires before what is good for the people? Times change. What happens when the Elders are incapable or unwilling to change with the times?
The same that happens when someone commits election fraud, steals corporate funds, or deflowers altar boys. Sometimes they get called on it, sometimes they don't. In any case what system would you have the Republic use? Democracy? Theocracy? Corporate dictatorship? Anarchy? |
Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
|
Posted - 2011.03.28 17:31:00 - [ 56]
Originally by: Sinti Vailatti
But Neu,
What happens when those Elders become corrupt and put their own wants and desires before what is good for the people? Times change. What happens when the Elders are incapable or unwilling to change with the times?
Sinti, as a non-Matari, this really is none of your concern. You have boots to lick. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah |
Posted - 2011.03.28 17:51:00 - [ 57]
Originally by: Neu Bastian
This thread is dense with personal impressions and their own tribal culture thrown in the mix.
Captain Bastian, This thread is not only "dense with personal impressions and their own tribal culture", but also full of unreflected dogma, idealism of the most naive type and tribal romanticism. Tribalism doesn't seem to be a political system or structure to me and most decidedly isn't a form of government. It's an ideology that informs political system, structure and form of government. This ideology can be healthy as well as harmful for the people in the 'Republic' (Which, as Paladin Farel rightly pointed out, isn't a Republic anymore). As in most cases extremism is also harmful in this case. That you think that there is an "inevitable consequence of the importance placed on your closes ties" which you identify as "a very strong sense of identity and individuality, present in most Minmatar." seems to indicate that you tend towards extremism. First, because there really aren't inevitable consequences of ideologies. Second, because you seem to have managed to convince yourself that all the 'inevitable consequences' are - in the case of tribalism - positive. This is a dangerous path. When Shakor assumed the mantle of Sanmatar his relationship to the 'Republic' and its citizens changed. It's very similar to that of a pater familias to his family and children. That's also a consequence of tribalism. And a Father is a despot: a benevolent despot (hopefully), but a despot nonetheless. While it is in a certain way true that he'll be in power (just) as long as the tribes let him, it's similarly true that the Emperor is (just) as long in power as his subjects let him. No ruler can rule if everyone is against him. I'm weary that the citizens of the Republic will transform into children of Sanmatar Shakor of the Minmatar family. Don't get me wrong: If they do so in a metaphorical or allegorical way, it's no issue for me. It's the possibility of an all to literal realization of that which worries me. Regards, N. Mithra |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
|
Posted - 2011.03.28 19:40:00 - [ 58]
Originally by: Neu Bastian
Originally by: Lyn Farel
not to have more listened to the change of governement system the people was asking for.
When Midular was in power, the government system was a parliamentary democracy, which was always scorned as the Gallente way to do it. The change most people people where claiming for was a return to Tribalism and that we got.
Shakor will be in power for as long as the tribes let him be there.
This is what I implied, yes. Except for the scorned part, of course, I can't be the judge of if it was scorned or not. I wonder what a gallentean partisan might answer to that, though. |
Sinti Vailatti
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
|
Posted - 2011.03.29 05:03:00 - [ 59]
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Originally by: Sinti Vailatti
But Neu,
What happens when those Elders become corrupt and put their own wants and desires before what is good for the people? Times change. What happens when the Elders are incapable or unwilling to change with the times?
Sinti, as a non-Matari, this really is none of your concern. You have boots to lick.
But Eva dear, if those of us who reside in the Empire are not Matari, why does the Republic spend so much time and money to try and "free" us? Make no mistake. I am Matari. And I am loyal to my God and my Empire and my House. Would you have me be a turn-coat Republican, or am I better off being honest, even if my words upset you? Face it Ava, your predjudice is exactly at the core of what's wrong with the Republic. And Neu...I'd have to honestly say I'd like to see the Republic as part of the Empire again. Khanid was able to break away and later rejoin. What if a similar path is meant for us? Failing that, I'd like to see a Republic that feeds it's poor, houses it's people and cares for it's citizens before dumping ISK and hatred into a war-machine that just doesn't work. One side says revolution. One side says reclimation. What if the right word is reunification? |
ValentinaDLM
Minmatar
Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
|
Posted - 2011.03.29 05:06:00 - [ 60]
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Sinti, as a non-Matari, this really is none of your concern. You have boots to lick.
Could I too, get a pass to be a non-matari, seeing as you are in a position to decide that sort of thing apparently. Race like tribes are a factor that only leads to disunity and perhaps that too, should be done away with. |
|
All Channels
Intergalactic Summit
