Posted - 2011.03.24 02:15:00 - [2]

 

The idea that the prosperity of the tribe is more important than the prosperity of the individuals in it, though the two are, of course, connected; if the tribe does well, the members do well.

Cultural ties are the most important aspect of any social group; the Sebiestor culture and traditions, language, etc, are quite different from those of, say, the Brutor. Tribalists value those ties, recognizing that our combined strengths make us strong, but that those differences make us unique.

Freedom, of course, is a huge part of Matari identity, but it is also important to most Gallente, for example; demanding the abolition of slavery alone is not a sufficient condition to be a "tribalist". We value the structure of the tribal system, placing faith in our tribal and clan leaders, and trust that they will do their best to help the rest of their tribe be prosperous. If they are not, well... they dont remain in their position for long.

I suppose a "tribalist" then, is one who supports the idea of leadership by our elders, who want to protect the identity of our own tribes, and who wish to preserve, on some level, our cultural uniqueness and heritage.

Posted - 2011.03.24 10:23:00 - [4]

 

Originally by: Kor Shivat

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Matari who have risen above the self-interest of their scurrying tribes would more accurately be called "nationalists."

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Ludicrous. The Tribes exist in multiple nation states. They are not subservient to any one nation - not even the Republic - just as tribalism is not a 'lower' form of nationalism. Both are entirely separate.
What does Republic Nationalism have to do with our people living in Federation space? Or those still held in bondage in the Empire?

In my view the Tribes are branches of a single family.

Posted - 2011.03.24 11:17:00 - [6]

 

Edited by: Ssakaa on 24/03/2011 11:17:56

Originally by: Borza Slavak

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Ludicrous. The Tribes exist in multiple nation states. They are not subservient to any one nation - not even the Republic - just as tribalism is not a 'lower' form of nationalism. Both are entirely separate.
What does Republic Nationalism have to do with our people living in Federation space? Or those still held in bondage in the Empire?

In my view the Tribes are branches of a single family.

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Mr. Slavak -would you personally include the nefantar as a branch of the Tribes, nowadays? Some Matari might do so, some might grit their teeth at the very notion.

I've been trying to understand the nefantar all my adult life, attempting to repress any distaste for their treacherous history and to study their willing conversion to an alien lifestyle, academically. It's been a struggle, frankly, to remain objective.

It would be interesting to hear a response from emm... nefantar capsuleers or spokespersons as to their peoples' current thinking about their former brothers and sisters.

Generalisation will suffice.

Posted - 2011.03.24 11:54:00 - [8]

 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 24/03/2011 11:54:39
The Ammatars are not Nefantars anymore. The only Ammatars having remained Nefantars are the ones that left the Mandate by rallying the call of the Elders and revealing the existence of the Starkmanir tribe survivors on the planet Halturzhan.

The rest of the Ammatars, after so many generations, mostly live like Amarrians. The new generations have no link left with their Matari ancestors, except for some of the oldest families, though like their brethen they have been raised in an Amarrian society.

Originally by: Luna Mori

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I am trying to understand what is meant by tribalism to a Minmatar capsuleer. For example, in my opinion, it would be natural* for any Matari with a strong cultural and ethnic identity to consider the total abolition of slavery a central part of their ideology. Therefore, I would say that it is a pre-condition for any Matari tribalist.

There is much discussion concerning tribal heritage and faith, but what else might help define tribalism?



*Not that I'm suggesting environmental determinism over cultural.

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The fight against slavery has nothing to to with tribalism. The Matari people does not have a monopoly over this, and anyway, tribalism is about social and cultural traditions, and not about an external fight. This would just be like linking a certain type of family with an unique political party. People are free to choose their political views while still living in a tribal system, or I think so. Unless the whole social structure in the Republic has changed in less than... 5 years, and that being a freedom fighter is mandatory.

There is also no more notion of freedom in tribalism than in any other social ladder, for obvious reasons of hierarchy. That does not mean, of couse, there is no freedom at all, at the contrary.

Originally by: Kor Shivat

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"Tribalism" is an assertion of separation, not common suffering. The human record abounds with groups claiming "strong cultural and ethnic identity" justifies genocide. There is no reason to sympathize with the plight of "tribalists." Live by the sword, die by the sword. Matari who have risen above the self-interest of their scurrying tribes would more accurately be called "nationalists."

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Again, you are comparing a social structure to a political stance. It is irrelevant, even if the latter can use the first one as a political tool.

Posted - 2011.03.24 12:01:00 - [10]

 

Tribalism, to me, means basically an awareness of one's tribal roots, culture, identity and a tribe-centric form of living.

This begs the question : What is a tribe.

A tribe is a social group of people with common history and ancestry.

To me the "abolition of all slavery" is more of a Gallente thing than a Matari thing. Matari care about slavery because we're mainly the victims of it, not that I would wish it on someone else, but it just isn't on my mind as much when say the Amarrians are enslaving a Ni-Kunni or something. To me those are more like willing slaves who embrace that culture.

C7

Posted - 2011.03.24 16:28:00 - [12]

 

Edited by: Syn Callibri on 24/03/2011 16:28:57

All of this talk about tribes is well and good, but what about loyalty to your clan before your tribe? Personally I think it is too often overshadowed by "The Tribe".

Posted - 2011.03.24 19:37:00 - [14]

 

Originally by: Borza Slavak

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Originally by: Kor Shivat

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Matari who have risen above the self-interest of their scurrying tribes would more accurately be called "nationalists."

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Ludicrous. The Tribes exist in multiple nation states.

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Clearly, the implications of "multiple" elude you.

Posted - 2011.03.24 21:13:00 - [16]

 

Originally by: Borza Slavak

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Or perhaps you.
'Matari who have risen above the self-interest of their scurrying nation states would more accurately be called "tribalists."'

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By which you suggest "tribalists" consider themselves members of a unified whole and not their actual, you know, "tribes?"

Wow.

Nation, sign me up. Mankind is beyond hope. I can almost fly a Rifter without crashing it into the side of a station twenty kilometers tall. Will that be useful?

Posted - 2011.03.25 10:42:00 - [18]

 

Ms Starfire said:
"The idea that the prosperity of the tribe is more important than the prosperity of the individuals in it, though the two are, of course, connected; if the tribe does well, the members do well."

Common needs, common goals, common backgrounds, all for the greater good (and therefore the individual's good). But what of common political ideals?

Also:
"I suppose a "tribalist" then, is one who supports the idea of leadership by our elders, who want to protect the identity of our own tribes, and who wish to preserve, on some level, our cultural uniqueness and heritage."

I agree. A 'modern tribalist' might then revere and respect the heritage but embrace contemporary ideals also. Try visiting some of our planetbound clans. It took me most of an evening to convince them I was still human and hadn't trancended into something else completely alien as a capsuleer. My claiming of tribal heritage didn't seem enough without also establishing that we shared the same ideals.


Ms Farel said:
"There is also no more notion of freedom in tribalism than in any other social ladder..."

I disagree. An Amarrian child raised with Amarrian cultural values would be more inclined to accept slavery (for others) as normal. Conversly, a Matari child raised with Matari cultural values would abhor the idea.

I am saying that concept of free-will-for-all is built into Matari (not exclusively) culture. Just as the concept of a slave labour force would be part of Amarrian culture.


Mr Nofearion said:
"In truth Tribalism is loyalty to your tribe, to your clan and family."
...and to the ideals of your tribe, clan or family?


I thank you all for your various ideas and comments. I knew there would be no easy answer in my ongoing quest to determine exactly what is meant by a 'modern' tribalist. There is still much for me to think about.

Posted - 2011.03.25 13:24:00 - [20]

 

Edited by: Ssakaa on 25/03/2011 13:24:12

Originally by: Luna Mori

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Common needs, common goals, common backgrounds, all for the greater good (and therefore the individual's good). But what of common political ideals?

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Luna, there's been a lot of fluff propaganda and deliberate obfuscation on the shared political goals (and the dissemination of same) of certain tribes or Minmatar nations. We are led to believe that there is a bitter rivalry among two opposing blocs in parliamentary affairs, to pick something out of the barrel.

One might be tempted to buy into the notion because its plausible enough, but keep your wits about you and you'll see it's just fluff. The current dominant political bloc has to have an effective opposition for it to be popularly legitimate, at least in as far as the Republic's day-to-day affairs go. You want your protagonists, you'll find them soon enough, on the surface of things.

But consider this. We are lead to believe, increasingly, one tribe has the ascendency in political matters of various kinds, and its historical 'rival' (as perceived by the capsuleer community at least) is on the back-foot.

It's just another political posturing of the sort we all encounter every waking day.

To illustrate, head over to Eram in any Interbus slow-liner and simply open your eyes. Our 'bitter rivals' are sitting cosily bunched up together by proxy, happy as happy can be. There must be solid political reasons (amongst others) for each of our illustrated tribes to almost be able to reach out with one hand and touch one another's orbital stations. (Eram really should be the first stop on the career itinerary of every Matari student of politics, and perhaps it is, who knows?)

On a related note, not so far from your homeland, Luna, individuals and organisations of those same tribal blocs work exceedingly well together towards identical political ideals as you've no doubt noted on your travels planet-side. They are unified and they are strong, yes?

It's all very encouraging.

Posted - 2011.03.25 16:09:00 - [22]

 

Originally by: ValentinaDLM

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I personally the Ammatar have done well by getting rid of most of their tribal identity and traditions, and becoming a more unified people because of it. Diversity of culture is highly overrated, as it is just another excuse for division, and lack of unity. You can even see this in the political makeup of the republic, where tribes struggle (politically at the very least, though I imagine bar brawls probably happen too) against each other for dominance, weakening the system itself.

I find it reprehensible that people would even expect, that due to my Brutor heritage, I would act like one, or celebrate their traditions. My loyalty is to humanity, not some tribe, and that is why I make the choices I do for the greater good rather then a small group of people who selfishly look after themselves.

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I find it reprehensible that you believe anyone would ever assume you are actually Matari. Your "heritage" may be that of the Brutor tribe, but your actions are those of a puppet. Someone pulls your strings, and you dance. Appropriate, I suppose, that you admire the Ammatar.

Posted - 2011.03.25 17:10:00 - [24]

 

You know, supposing someone were to announce their intention to collate notable Summiteers (is that a word?) on a list -emm, let's say for example the idea of notability including those who consistently wield vocabulary as stiletto blades -I'd nominate Ms. Ava Starfire as an example of a thoroughly modern Minmatar who ticks all the right boxes.

So, in pale imitation of her wit, I recall a dog I once owned, since nefantar came up again. Neither he nor I knew what breed he was and neither of us cared much. But I threw sticks and he returned them over and over again. Ah, how his bushy tail wagged as he loped off into the sand-dunes and back.

A fine dog, but still a dog.

Posted - 2011.03.25 17:52:00 - [26]

 

Originally by: Lu'ay al Din

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It is a simple question Luna Mori, it's barbarism. A primitive culture that lacks major signs of of economic development or modernity.

Salvation from barbarism is possible though. If you would like to know more please to not hesitate to contact me. My family house of Hasib has programs in place to guide lost souls to their rightful place in society.

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My clan has plenty of programs available, to guide your soul to its place as well! Contact me for more information.

Posted - 2011.03.25 22:02:00 - [28]

 

Originally by: Ava Starfire

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Originally by: ValentinaDLM

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I personally the Ammatar have done well by getting rid of most of their tribal identity and traditions, and becoming a more unified people because of it. Diversity of culture is highly overrated, as it is just another excuse for division, and lack of unity. You can even see this in the political makeup of the republic, where tribes struggle (politically at the very least, though I imagine bar brawls probably happen too) against each other for dominance, weakening the system itself.

I find it reprehensible that people would even expect, that due to my Brutor heritage, I would act like one, or celebrate their traditions. My loyalty is to humanity, not some tribe, and that is why I make the choices I do for the greater good rather then a small group of people who selfishly look after themselves.

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I find it reprehensible that you believe anyone would ever assume you are actually Matari. Your "heritage" may be that of the Brutor tribe, but your actions are those of a puppet. Someone pulls your strings, and you dance. Appropriate, I suppose, that you admire the Ammatar.

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Comparing the Ammatars with Sansha ? Well, this is interesting. Happy chips would be replaced by Faith in the case of the Mandate, and every Ammatar would obviously think the same way their governor thinks ?

Please note that I strongly disagree with this Sansha sympathizer, though, but I find the comparison quite uncongruous, even if I perfectly see what is your point here.

Posted - 2011.03.26 12:38:00 - [30]

 

Hrm...lessee...

I am a citizen of Khanid, so they are my tribe. I am also Minmatar, so they are my tribe. I am also Vherokior, so they are my tribe as are the people of my House and my immediate family, my friends and co-workers.

There is a philosophy here. Light, when aimed at a prism, breaks into seperate wavelengths. It is still light, but it isn't as bright, isn't as pure. When you focus it through a lens, it becomes a laser. All the light of many wavelengths are together in one focused beam. One focused purpose.

I think it's good to know what wavelength you're on, but let your light be a part of something greater.