Posted - 2011.03.15 17:15:00 - [3]

 

Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin

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Originally by: Cipher Jones

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1. Yes, we know its the fastest BS in the game. Putting an AB on it is stupid in any scenario where it doesn't help you finish the mission faster. Sometimes a MWD is better, usually no (speed) booster is needed. Remember that while it's the fastest, it's the most agile also. Killing its align time when you have to go to another system is a waste of time. And there ARE missions where the AB is warranted.

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... then don't run your afterburner when you're about to start warping around. Problem solved!

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So not using it takes up a slot, how does that solve the problem? I takes you longer to complete the mission. If you are using it it takes time to complete its cycle before you can turn it off and gain align time. Still takes longer.

The way to solve the problem is to use it on missions where it makes them quicker to complete.

Posted - 2011.03.15 18:16:00 - [5]

 

Originally by: Cipher Jones

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Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin

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Originally by: Cipher Jones

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snip

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... then don't run your afterburner when you're about to start warping around. Problem solved!

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So not using it takes up a slot, how does that solve the problem? I takes you longer to complete the mission. If you are using it it takes time to complete its cycle before you can turn it off and gain align time. Still takes longer.

The way to solve the problem is to use it on missions where it makes them quicker to complete.

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/facepalm

Because waiting a whole 10 seconds for your AB to finish cycling just completely negates any speed bonus you get while traveling to an acceleration gate.

Posted - 2011.03.15 18:56:00 - [7]

 

Using faction ammo on a Mach is ******ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges.

Posted - 2011.03.15 20:25:00 - [9]

 

Originally by: Alonzo Harris

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Using faction ammo on a Mach is ******ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges.

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It only hurts your income by a small percent unless you utterly fail at missioning, however. As mentioned in the above post you can minimize fighting in falloff quite easily.

The only angel mission that puts groups initially out of falloff is "The Blockade", there's a group within falloff for all of the spawns except one.

You use 2-3k on the longest missions. that costs 2.4 mil, and you make all of the LP you spent back in the mission, plus 19 mil extra in bounty and of course the salvage if you're into that.

If you're rushing you use almost no ammo.

WC4 Angels/Sansha. Fit a MWD, rush the first gate. Kill the 2 frigs in the second room and MWD to the next gate. Kill the group gaurding the heron, loot the crew. You just bought your ammo for the day in 10 minutes. There's a perfect example of when to use an AB/MWD (as staed in the OP). Even if you don't rush it it makes it much quicker.

Posted - 2011.03.15 20:56:00 - [11]

 

Edited by: Patient 2428190 on 15/03/2011 21:11:57

Originally by: Cipher Jones

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1. Yes, we know its the fastest BS in the game. Putting an AB on it is stupid in any scenario where it doesn't help you finish the mission faster. Sometimes a MWD is better, usually no (speed) booster is needed. Remember that while it's the fastest, it's the most agile also. Killing its align time when you have to go to another system is a waste of time. And there ARE missions where the AB is warranted.

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While I agree with the notion of just enough tank and a whole lot of gank, the afterburner helps you apply DPS to rats. You have spare mids and the only other thing you could put in the spare mids to help your mission completion time is a target painter(s) which are fairly annoying to deal with.

You lose DPS as stuff is farther from you (and a lot of non angel missions have rats 40-70km away from you), so sitting like a turd and lolololol shooting ACs at everything is not the most efficient way to go about it.

And the agility penalty is only when the AB is on

Originally by: Cipher Jones

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3 CCC's are great. Unless you have terribad skills and micromanagement you wont be able to pop anything in less volleys (assuming you follow the rest of the advice and use utility slots in the extra mid slots) with other rigs.

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The T2 projectile damage rigs have a really sexy damage modifier, and you were really all about blitzing missions fast, you'd cap inject anyways, rendering the CCC rigs completely useless.

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The only angel mission that puts groups initially out of falloff is "The Blockade", there's a group within falloff for all of the spawns except one.

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AE has plenty of rats that start 40-50km from you. A 1100 DPS Mach does that at 5km, but its closer 700 DPS at 40-45km (36% less). I don't know if the EFT graph takes into account the lower quality hits you get as you go farther in falloff, if it doesn't, you are actually closer to 40% less at 45km.

Posted - 2011.03.15 21:50:00 - [13]

 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 22:08:48
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 22:02:20
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 21:52:36

Originally by: Pod Amarr

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That would then bring out the question:

At which point [range] would a CNR doing 820 dps with fury Cruises doing the clean damage type outperform the Machariel?

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You mean and also with drones, because a CNR ain't pushin that much DPS at all 5's.

All 5's vs all 5's, 43K, not counting for defender missiles.

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AE has plenty of rats that start 40-50km from you. A 1100 DPS Mach does that at 5km, but its closer 700 DPS at 40-45km (36% less). I don't know if the EFT graph takes into account the lower quality hits you get as you go farther in falloff, if it doesn't, you are actually closer to 40% less at 45km.

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So what you are really saying is that I have tried it both ways and you have not but your way is better.

In all seriousness I did mention using strategy already and one shoting the small stuff in all those waves first is the only way to run it. You can easily pull that off no problems. By then you can be in great range.

Posted - 2011.03.15 23:10:00 - [15]

 

No that is all lvl 5 character with the 2 5 % implants. No drones.

With Bouncers II's and the implants the CNR can push out 996 DPS Fury cruise
With the same implants and 4 Bouncers Machariel can do 1485 DPS with Fleet EMP. [to get something like the 69 km fall off.

This would be the number I would like to know.

Posted - 2011.03.16 00:37:00 - [17]

 

Further more, i would really like to try a 1200 Arty Mach fit one day soon, with a MWD or AB. Would certainly overcome issues applying full DPS onto targets some distance away, even if the total DPS is lower

Posted - 2011.03.16 01:37:00 - [19]

 

I wouldn't be using mine for missions, would be using it for Anoms out in 0.0, some spawns are usually between 30 and 50km away. The falloff and damage bonus would be very effective

Posted - 2011.03.16 04:29:00 - [21]

 

Doesn't need a gisti sb.. and a bil+ in mods without a DCU is just asking for an alpha of death. Add in that you could use the cost of a gisti to instead fund DED hardeners, a pithi sb, RF gyros, a T2 RoF rig and still have another couple hundred mil leftover.. all while still succeeding in every mission.

Posted - 2011.03.16 13:53:00 - [23]

 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 16/03/2011 13:53:08
1. I prefer a speed and armor tank. With a good afterburner enemy turret battleships are barely able to hit me at close range and missile damage taken is drastically reduced, also an armor tank leaves room for an additional stasis webifier.

2. Calling other people stupid makes you look stupid.

Posted - 2011.03.16 21:23:00 - [25]

 

It's not so much about clowning around or being inefficient, the test Liang did was based on mission completion time only. The result was that when using more expensive ammo taking away a percentage of the profit it would be offset by a bigger percentage in speed gain, but again Liang never accounted for total actual time to do a mission. Switching fitting, undocking, warping to gate, jumping perhaps, warp to mission, perhaps pick up mission completion item, then warping warping back to gate or station, docking again.

If the result is that faction ammo increases net gains by 8% (when counting missions completion time only) then on a 10 minute mission you'd start to LOSE money if the total extra time of fitting/undocking/warping etc would take more than a minute, and it easily does. In a realistic scenario using faction ammo on a Mach just isn't worth it if you look for isk/hour.

Posted - 2011.03.17 07:07:00 - [27]

 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 17/03/2011 07:14:33

Originally by: Alonzo Harris

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If the result is that faction ammo increases net gains by 8% (when counting missions completion time only) then on a 10 minute mission you'd start to LOSE money if the total extra time of fitting/undocking/warping etc would take more than a minute, and it easily does. In a realistic scenario using faction ammo on a Mach just isn't worth it if you look for isk/hour.

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My issue with your logic is that you're not talking as if the Mach using T1 ammo has to take the exact same time to dock, warp, change fit, and get to the mission as a Mach using Faction ammo would have to.

To use Blockade as an example (it's fast and an easy 20mil wallet tick for division's sake), if it takes you fifteen minutes to run it with T1 ammo and 13.5 minutes to run it by faction, you have to spend fourteen minutes ****ing around getting to and from the mission before you lose the advantage that Faction ammo gave you. That's assuming you're buying Faction ammo at 1600 a pop off the market and blowing through 2000 rounds, as well.

I can dock, turn a mission in, take a new one, and start shooting at the next rats within ten minutes easy. Faction ammo is simply better than the meager credit you're giving it. Missions that take longer to run than they do to get to and start skew to Faction Ammo's side.

And I'll once again state for fairness's sake that I think using T1 ammo is perfectly fine, and I use it when I'm not grinding in a dedicated fashion.

ED: I'd like to add that I only considered the 20m isk tick you get for shooting the rats and completing the mission in the Blockade, and no other form of compensation from the mission. Things start leaning even more to Faction Ammo's side once you consider LP, but I didn't want to assign LP an arbitrary isk value since the work that turns that into isk happens outside of normal missioning time.

Posted - 2011.03.17 13:34:00 - [29]

 

Edited by: NoNah on 17/03/2011 13:34:46

Originally by: Cipher Jones

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There's a lot of fits going around out there that are just plain slow at running missions. I have tried many fits that came highly recommended but left producing less isk. I just want to dispel a few myths about mission running in a mach.

1. Yes, we know its the fastest BS in the game. Putting an AB on it is stupid in any scenario where it doesn't help you finish the mission faster. Sometimes a MWD is better, usually no (speed) booster is needed. Remember that while it's the fastest, it's the most agile also. Killing its align time when you have to go to another system is a waste of time. And there ARE missions where the AB is warranted.

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An afterburner decreases damage taken, increases damage done and helps you with any sort of travel. No time is lost in alignment. There are however many missions where MWD's are warranted. I'd love to hear examples of missions where zero prop mods is desirable.

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2. 3 CCC's are great. Unless you have terribad skills and micromanagement you wont be able to pop anything in less volleys (assuming you follow the rest of the advice and use utility slots in the extra mid slots) with other rigs.

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This makes no sense. If your micromanagemet is optimal, every last bit of dps counts, going CCC's means no burst aerator, means you lose some 75 dps. This is terribad. There is no mid or highslot modules that can compensate. Assuming you use an injector(which you should) CCC's give next to nothing.

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3. Any gist xlarge booster plus 2 hardeners should be enough for almost any mission. a 3rd hardener for the difficult sansha's missions will allow you to complete them easily.

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It will also paint a big target. Using an afterburner you'll easily get by with a meta 4 or CN/DG shield booster(obviously t2 xl aswell, but it's general waste of SP to get it for a very long time imho)

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4. lows = 4 gyro's + 3 trackers. Period.

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Oh... I agree.

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5. Extra mid slots can be used for utility.

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Such as?

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6. You don't need t2 guns on it, but you need enough DPS to forgo the 4th and 5th shield mods. About 700-750 (not including drones) should cut it. Meta 4's with faction ammo are great,republic fleet are best.

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I'd love to hear how republic fleet AC's are better than T2. While admitably it's rare, t2 even allows you hail and barrage for the occasions, and they have better damage than RF(assuming you have spec 2 or above).