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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2011.03.08 15:55:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: mazzilliu
high level concerns: "hey you don't have anybody assigned to working on EVE" -summer, 2010, something only the higherups can deal with

low level concerns: "hey, why is this feature mandatory" -this letter, 2011, something only the grunts can deal with

Utter drivel Rolling Eyes

It is the management/vision/producer level staff within CCP who should be making those kind of key strategic decisions not the "grunts" working on one part of a feature.

We've been waiting for answers to questions and constructive feedback raised in December and haven't heard anything. An internal letter was sent to CCP last month and all we got back was the CQ blog which didn't address anything significant.

This letter hasn't damaged any working relationship with the Incarna teams because there wasn't a working relationship with them in the first place Wink

Natalia Kovac
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.03.08 16:03:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 08/03/2011 16:04:24
Frankly I think Incarna is going to be great. I spent a lot of time crafting my virtual ass, and I expect to spend a lot of time fapping over it.

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.03.08 16:15:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Seleene on 08/03/2011 16:15:23
Originally by: Natalia Kovac
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 08/03/2011 16:04:24
Frankly I think Incarna is going to be great. I spent a lot of time crafting my virtual ass, and I expect to spend a lot of time fapping over it.


What about all those guys with male avatars tho? If you're not gay... PLEX for sex-change? These are important questions! Cool

I've blogged on this and I'm going to stick with my initial take on Incarna - CCP has to 'deliver' the goods and make it interesting. Thus far, CCP has not shown that they have a PLAN (there's that word again) for doing that and I don't think this public letter would have become public if the current CSM had been given any kind of bread crumbs to reassure them.

mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.03.08 17:57:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: TeaDaze
Originally by: mazzilliu
high level concerns: "hey you don't have anybody assigned to working on EVE" -summer, 2010, something only the higherups can deal with

low level concerns: "hey, why is this feature mandatory" -this letter, 2011, something only the grunts can deal with

Utter drivel Rolling Eyes

It is the management/vision/producer level staff within CCP who should be making those kind of key strategic decisions not the "grunts" working on one part of a feature.

We've been waiting for answers to questions and constructive feedback raised in December and haven't heard anything. An internal letter was sent to CCP last month and all we got back was the CQ blog which didn't address anything significant.

This letter hasn't damaged any working relationship with the Incarna teams because there wasn't a working relationship with them in the first place Wink


you still can't disagree that the two complaints are of a completely different nature. one is something that can be seen as a reasonable request all around, the other can be seen as trying to dictate game features by others. one is broad and allows for a lot of leeway in the possible responses, the other is specific and narrow and not to mention ignorant of whatever operational constraints may be imposed on the team.

the csm's relationship with the incarna team might not have possibly gotten worse but we've just broadcasted a message to the rest of the teams saying hey guys, if you dont do something we really want you to do, we're going to try publicly shaming you. GOOD WORK GUYS

with regards to the timing issues brought forth by others: the letter was supposed to be released two weeks ago, since i raised up such a stink about it and the csm was concerned about being perceived as acting maliciously, and ccp said they would be taking time to draft a response(incarna devblog). but in the end NOBODY's minds changed because of it. We can't really release this letter much later than this because our term is ending, although most functional activity of the csm seems to have ceased at around the time of this letter anyways.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.03.08 20:57:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: mazzilliu
Now on Fox News: State of Fear - how to preserve reverse social engineering!


Sorry, I could not resist that wide open door Cool

Anyway, earlier today I left a comment on Keith's blog, which was promptly turned into a guest post, where I left my own observations on the matter of the Incarna Open Letter. It is best read there, and until we get new forums the character limit here is a bit restrictive Wink

Anyhow. I understand where the sentiment of buffering against perceptions of butthurt comes from. But it is unwarranted, unnecessary, and counterproductive.

Unwarranted because this is CCP we are talking about. A company that dares to be different, that wants to conquer the world. They know that is never smooth sailing, and takes a lot of hardship.

Unnecessary again because this is CCP, they have an open business culture with clear company values which they stick to. If folks working there get butthurt over an open letter, it is more from individual confusion between work and person than from an absence of such company values.

Counterproductive because this open letter, the process, the communication, the accountability, it is all exactly part of the mission of CSM as a stakeholder as laid out by CCP's CEO. Providing feedback is but one part of it, challenging CCP another, and both are inherent elements required in any external stakeholder interaction. yes it is a learning curve on all sides, but that is fine. CCP are humans, but strong people, and they are a team.

Just like in my comments on Keith's blog, it is still best demonstrated by the words of CCP's Chairman of the Board of Directors. It's from 2009, yet still applies to everything CCP takes on. As a company, as people.

Quote:
CCP‘s culture is strong, and is built on four core values: We are fearless, we stand united, we pursue excellence, we practice transparency. Such values cannot simply be dictated by committe or by installed by fiat. They have to be lived and breathed by everyone in the company, including the board and its chairman, or they are not credible. Also, the values are truly validated only when there is a crisis or a severe test facing the company. Will it then live up to its values, or are they empty talk?

Vilhjalmur Thorsteinsson

Those are very wise words, and the thoughts behind it are even smarter. They are good lessons, and values, not just for CCP as a company, but also as people, and equally for the dynamic that they created - of which CCP, CSM and customers alike are a part of.


Tiny Montgomery
Posted - 2011.03.09 00:14:00 - [66]
 

Just out of curiosity has there been any communication/progress on any other issues in the last 2 months? You know, the other stuff that you guys were actually elected to push CCP to work on? Low Sec proposals? Hybrid fixes? Or have all efforts been dedicated to badgering CCP about Incarna? I confess I haven't been following much lately, but it seems that since the December Summit there hasn't been much done or said that was productive. Shame since up until that point a lot had actually been accomplished (I am not being sarcastic).

TBH I think the CSM's mandate should not be to "call bull****" but to help get the things that are currently broken in game, fixed. The players have all been clamouring for things to get fixed and the CSM was helping with that. The fixes in "Incursion" are a clear example of the CSM's impact and progress on that front. The outrage in June seemed to stem very much from the perception that CCP wasn't going to be adding or fixing anything other than Incarna for 18 months. And now this CSM has taken a page from that book and doesn't seem interested in anything other than Incarna. Ironic.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.09 00:36:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Virtuozzo
It is best read there, and until we get new forums the character limit here is a bit restrictive Wink

I begged the EVEGate Forums team to impose a special 140-character length limit on Virtuozzo posts, but they refused, on the grounds that Virtposts are incredibly useful as forum stress-tests.

On a more serious note, a reply I posted in my campaign thread gives my perspective on how the letter evolved.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2011.03.09 02:04:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Tiny Montgomery
Just out of curiosity has there been any communication/progress on any other issues in the last 2 months? You know, the other stuff that you guys were actually elected to push CCP to work on? Low Sec proposals? Hybrid fixes? Or have all efforts been dedicated to badgering CCP about Incarna? I confess I haven't been following much lately, but it seems that since the December Summit there hasn't been much done or said that was productive. Shame since up until that point a lot had actually been accomplished (I am not being sarcastic).

CCP did their release planning in Jan so we're at the stage of waiting to hear back on which items are being progressed and which have been shelved. Since December CCP have started providing weekly updates to CSM of where things are, but unless they give permission we can't discuss features in progress in case they get dropped.

Just to make it clear, CCP have stated that no stakeholder group within the Eve project has guaranteed development time allocated so it is entirely possible that no CSM issues will get worked on for a whole release cycle. However in this cycle a team is spending some of their time working on quick fixes identified by CSM and players.


Originally by: Tiny Montgomery
TBH I think the CSM's mandate should not be to "call bull****" but to help get the things that are currently broken in game, fixed. The players have all been clamouring for things to get fixed and the CSM was helping with that. The fixes in "Incursion" are a clear example of the CSM's impact and progress on that front. The outrage in June seemed to stem very much from the perception that CCP wasn't going to be adding or fixing anything other than Incarna for 18 months. And now this CSM has taken a page from that book and doesn't seem interested in anything other than Incarna. Ironic.

See above, release planning has been done and so no further issues can realistically be added at this stage. CSM focus until the next round of release planning is on providing feedback unless a team has time to work on something else at which point we'll do what we can to get more issues pushed forward. This cycle will continue for as long as CCP have a two release per year schedule.

The role of the CSM continues to evolve and that is likely to continue into CSM6 and beyond. It simply isn't worthwhile going back to the old system of just raising hundreds of new issues because CCP simply don't have the development time to address more than a handful of them. The key time is providing the priority list (from the crowdsourcing) before the release planning (which we did) and attempting (as you pointed out) to get existing things fixed. The reason CSM are so interested in getting answers to Incarna questions is because that is the main focus of this release cycle.

Lain Umi
Posted - 2011.03.09 03:39:00 - [69]
 

they better fix hybrids first. just sayin.

mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.03.09 04:53:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Virtuozzo
Originally by: mazzilliu
Now on Fox News: State of Fear - how to preserve reverse social engineering!


Sorry, I could not resist that wide open door Cool

clearly i am abstaining from signing my name to trick you.

Gertrud ToD
Terrorists of Dimensions
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2011.03.09 07:15:00 - [71]
 

so why exactly is incarna that important and crucial?

eve is about flying spaceships. thats what we all love about it,
and i dont see how that incarna stuff improves anything?
frankly, i think its a waste of resources.

Helen Highwater
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2011.03.09 08:14:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Gertrud ToD
so why exactly is incarna that important and crucial?

eve is about flying spaceships. thats what we all love about it,
and i dont see how that incarna stuff improves anything?
frankly, i think its a waste of resources.


It's important because it's taking up a lot of CCP's development resources for a significant amount of time. Choosing to spend developer time on Incarna means that CCP has chosen not to spend that time on other things. I agree that Incarna is likely to offer little to no value for the majority of current Eve players. CCP thinks that it will attract new ones but I am sceptical of this.

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2011.03.09 09:26:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Gertrud ToD
so why exactly is incarna that important and crucial?

eve is about flying spaceships. thats what we all love about it,
and i dont see how that incarna stuff improves anything?
frankly, i think its a waste of resources.


It's important because it's taking up a lot of CCP's development resources for a significant amount of time. Choosing to spend developer time on Incarna means that CCP has chosen not to spend that time on other things. I agree that Incarna is likely to offer little to no value for the majority of current Eve players. CCP thinks that it will attract new ones but I am sceptical of this.


No.

CCP is developing a Character & Environment engine for Carbon. They happen to have a huge playerbase to test it on in EVE-online, so they ahve decided to add the engine to EVE to test it out in real life before making World of Darkness and/or other Carbon based MMO's.

Incarna is a toy in EvE. Thats all.

CCP gets to develop and refine the content pipeline for the engine on a live game instead as a lab experiment.

If you think the reseources would have been used on EvE had they not made Incarna you are very wrong.

Helen Highwater
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2011.03.09 10:00:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Qual


No.

CCP is developing a Character & Environment engine for Carbon. They happen to have a huge playerbase to test it on in EVE-online, so they ahve decided to add the engine to EVE to test it out in real life before making World of Darkness and/or other Carbon based MMO's.

Incarna is a toy in EvE. Thats all.

CCP gets to develop and refine the content pipeline for the engine on a live game instead as a lab experiment.

If you think the reseources would have been used on EvE had they not made Incarna you are very wrong.


Except that the Carbon team is completely separate to the Incarna team or any of the other Eve teams. There are Eve resources being spent on Incarna over and above the Carbon integration.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.03.09 11:29:00 - [75]
 

As if I ever do excessive posting :P This I could not resist however, with a bit of a wink Cool



Vote Seleene for CSM 6 (Blog) & Vote Trebor for CSM 6 (Blog)!

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Vote Seleene for CSM 6 (Blog) & Vote Trebor for CSM 6 (Blog)!



Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.03.09 11:36:00 - [76]
 

This is the kind of post CSM should more often/on a regular basis.

It is very hard to get a feeling you do something, this is great example of showing what you do, giving transparency, having a dialogue with both sides, etc. It also shows the CSM5 already done way more than any of the previous versions, by this post alone.

Thank you.

Joahan
Posted - 2011.03.09 12:18:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Gertrud ToD
so why exactly is incarna that important and crucial?

eve is about flying spaceships. thats what we all love about it,
and i dont see how that incarna stuff improves anything?
frankly, i think its a waste of resources.


It's a distraction for the players and for the designers. It isn't going to have any new functionality or gameplay that we are aware of, though there are many references to what it might be in the future. It will essentially be a better looking habbo hotel.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.09 12:53:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 09/03/2011 12:56:07
Edited by: Mynxee on 09/03/2011 12:55:33
Originally by: Misanth
This is the kind of post CSM should more often/on a regular basis.

It is very hard to get a feeling you do something, this is great example of showing what you do, giving transparency, having a dialogue with both sides, etc. It also shows the CSM5 already done way more than any of the previous versions, by this post alone.

Thank you.


Thanks for your comments, Misanth. The amount of time and effort it took to get to the point of publishing this letter was far above average, but we do have similar internal discussions and debates about many things that follow a similar process. This is a big part of the "unseen" time spent doing CSM stuff and it is considerable for those delegates who choose to participate in such discussions (not all do; for example, I contributed very little to the null sec discussion because I have no expertise that would allow useful participation). These discussions often involve topics that CCP has placed under NDA which is why they don't get shared with the public. The CSM internal forums are by default considered to be NDA, which helps to establish a comfort level for CSM and CCP to engage freely in discussion--particularly for people on the CCP side of the equation.

But CCP participation is optional; no one on the CCP side is required to engage with the CSM or answer our questions (with the possible exception of our advocates), nor come to the table to try and resolve grievances. It is easy to assume such a grievance--perhaps due to personality conflicts or personal issues with some CSM5 members--is held by the Incarna Team. We don't know. Perhaps we can make some assumptions about that when CSM6 takes office and we see how or if they are engaged by Team Incarna.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.09 14:31:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: TeaDaze
But - Incarna participation will be enforced (unless CCP change their mind).


Making Incarna participation optional will not ruin your immersion but making it enforced ruins mine...

How will Incarna be enfoced on supercapital pilots or pilots living in W-space? I'm curious.

iP0D
Posted - 2011.03.09 14:50:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: iP0D on 09/03/2011 14:50:46
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: TeaDaze
But - Incarna participation will be enforced (unless CCP change their mind).


Making Incarna participation optional will not ruin your immersion but making it enforced ruins mine...

How will Incarna be enfoced on supercapital pilots or pilots living in W-space? I'm curious.



Don't be silly, we all know Incarna is station environments. Unless you have a station on board of your supercap or in a wormhole those niches will be irrelevant for CCP in the topic :P

That does not diminish the importance being cautious of the mindset behind the approach of "X cannot be compelling unless it is enforced". With Incarna that is a topic, let's hope the paradigm does not spread beyond.

Chuc Morris
Posted - 2011.03.09 14:54:00 - [81]
 

We have no real idea what's Incarna about unless "captain's quarters" and... and nothing else but "mabe's" and stuff alike, how can the CSM take players coments/sugestions seriously when even them are in the blackout?
-aren't they supposed to be the comunity voice but also the "coolwater" for all the boilling threads?

It's pretty obvious that the "comunication" from CCP vs players has serious issues and vs CSM.
At the end of the day the major part of the players has I do, whenever I get enraged (that happens pretty often Laughing ), we throw on CSM's back al this misscomunication issues.

Now I really hope for the grater good of this game I enjoy that CCP's Senior Dev's are capable to open their eyes a little bit and see the community waiting for answers from them and not only from you (actually I expect their answers for the issues you repport better than your repport of their answers).

Knowing whow senior dev's/managers act I will not expect any change in this sens and wish you guys good luck on trying. Profit to take some local beers and kiss some local chicks for me, at least that will profit a liitle bit to some eve's community Laughing

(sry for my poor english, not english native)

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.03.09 15:15:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 09/03/2011 15:18:12
Edited by: Cearain on 09/03/2011 15:16:24
Originally by: TeaDaze
The reason CSM are so interested in getting answers to Incarna questions is because that is the main focus of this release cycle.


Teadaze
Thank you, for your work on csm. I voted for you last time and definitely feel I got my votes worth. Your main point in your campaign and throughout what you did on csm was you were going to push player concerns.

But here I think CCP is pulling a form of bait and switch on you. Tiny Montgomery is correct the players were extremely upset because they didn’t care about incarna. CSM should continue to inform CCP of this fact and continue to push for the things players care about - Iterating on the spaceship game.

It seems to me that it is very hard to represent the player’s views about a game feature that isn't even out yet and they know nothing about. Sure you may know some things, but we don't. The only thing you know is that the players don’t really care about incarna and were therefore upset that it was taking so many resources for such a long time period. That was clear right?
If that was clear then how can the csm as representatives of the players say things like this:

“given how crucial Incarna is to the future of EVE and CCP”

“the success or failure of Incarna is such an important issue”

“We are extremely concerned that development of Incarna, the most significant addition to EVE since Beta,”

“rather we are primarily concerned about the apparent lack of significant planning for a feature CCP properly regards as crucial to the future of the company, and the game we love so much.”

Huh??
I am left to wonder what ccp put in your beer. The players have said the opposite very clearly in June. Many left because they saw incarna as a big time waste and a guarantee that what they find “crucial” to the game may never get worked on.

The kicker is really this ”We want to see Incarna fully fleshed-out.” I read this as "CCP spend more time on incarna than the 18 months you already set aside!" This couldn’t be further from representing the player’s views.

I want incarna spit out asap so CCP can go back to spaceships asap. Players were ticked off that it took as long as it did. If it’s not fleshed out so be it, I don’t care. I care about ccp getting back to spaceships because that is what is crucial to eve – or at least my subscription to it and others who left the game. Not incarna.

If ccp won’t listen to what the players tell them that does not mean you should ignore what the players say and start playing along with what ccp is forcing down our throat. You simply need to report to the players that ccp is going to continue to ignore them until incarna is done.

You have always done a great job of this as far as I can tell and you achieved great results for the players. This letter though…. come on. It’s the opposite of what the clear majority of players said in june. In any event on the whole I would vote for you again – if you were offering to run. I think the csm got suckered into ccp’s agenda a bit here but you would start to see straight eventually. Step back and you will see where tiny Montgomery is coming from.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.09 15:19:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: iP0D
Edited by: iP0D on 09/03/2011 14:50:46
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: TeaDaze
But - Incarna participation will be enforced (unless CCP change their mind).


Making Incarna participation optional will not ruin your immersion but making it enforced ruins mine...

How will Incarna be enfoced on supercapital pilots or pilots living in W-space? I'm curious.



Don't be silly, we all know Incarna is station environments. Unless you have a station on board of your supercap or in a wormhole those niches will be irrelevant for CCP in the topic :P

That does not diminish the importance being cautious of the mindset behind the approach of "X cannot be compelling unless it is enforced". With Incarna that is a topic, let's hope the paradigm does not spread beyond.


It was just to point out that Incarna will be optional regardless how much CCP tries to enforce it. TaeDaze listed everything but Incarna in eve as optional. I just said it will be optional as well if you really truly hate it with every fibre of your body and don't want to participate. Just find a playstyle where you never have to dock. Wink

Ghost Miner101
Posted - 2011.03.09 16:26:00 - [84]
 

I know I am a new player in the grand scheme of things. And I know that I do not speak for anyone other than myself. But as this has become a huge issue and I have heard far more experienced players voice their opinion but not many newer players like me. A lot of you guys (and gals) have noted that there is little or no use to Incarna. And perhaps for the experienced players there won’t be. It will just be something you see for 30 seconds while you switch ships to go blow some poor person up. But as a newer player I believe that this at least has the makings to be very useful to the newer player. It could be a place that can give you direction, a place to see and understand before being thrown to the wolves. I tried to start this game once before and stopped simply from the fact that it was so open ended I had no idea what to do. Now that may seem ignorant and make me sound stupid but it is the truth. At least at the beginning you need some kind of go here do this to at least know how to do the various things. If you are searching for a way to actually make a reason for it think of this. If it even adds a tenth of the amount of people that currently play the game to the universe. Then is more then there are now. And that means more people to blow up for the experienced players and a more enjoyable experience being blown up for newer players like me. Because no matter how enjoyable a game is you need to have n0obs to make it better. Just my thoughts.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.03.09 17:16:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 09/03/2011 17:16:47
Ghost miner
The tutorials will help you learn how to play eve. It's hard to see how you can better learn to fly a spaceship while in a station.

No one doubts that incarna will add players who would like a game where they walk around in a space station. But at least as of June of 2010 that was not our playerbase. Indeed it’s pretty clear that the time and resources spent on incarna will cost eve at least some of its current players.

There are many players who continue to play with the hope that ccp will someday improve whatever it is they currently do. (For me its faction war.) The June summit minutes forced everyone to realize that whatever it is they would like done will almost certainly not get done for 18 months. That sucked to hear and more than a few quit. But some of us have decided to ride out the 18 months.

Now we get a csm letter that says “flesh out incarna” which can be interpreted as asking that they should do more with it than they already planned. Well … no. That is the complete opposite of the views of the players that I had read back in June.

The csm should represent the players that elected them. For the reasons I set forth in my prior post this letter does not entirely do that and in some ways completely contradicts the players' outcry.

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.03.09 17:51:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: PC l0adletter
buff the lag team

I think the biggest problem here is people don't know the difference between lag and bad FPS.
tbh i think the lag issues are under control, and large fleet framerate(framerage?) is bad, at least on common systems (im on a q6600 with geforce 9800gtx and its literally unplayable in some fights)

I think more attention needs to be payed to framerate performance, and scaling down visual effects / 3d models automatically to improve framerate and UI responsiveness. Also, the option to specifically select what visual effects we see, would be great. (IE: so i can hide all the sebo effects only... etc)

TLDR: More graphics, more options to turn them off! (preferably, optionally, automatically)

.... AND audio (amarr *KCHHHHHH*KCHHHHHH*)

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.03.09 22:32:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson

I'd much rather have CCP be open about being empty-handed for now, and actually asking us what WE would like in incarna.

I'm sorry CCP, I love you guys but "it's gonna be awesome!!1!" just doesn't cut it anymore.



Whoha, hold that quote. It always struck me as more odd than usual that CCP, after having presented a pretty nice demonstration of 'Incarca' (or 'Walking in Stations' at the time), to suddenly announce that they have scrapped the current concept and would make it something else instead. Ever since I saw this post in the Mission forum I have had a bad feeling about the direction of the concept.

I fully support the message of the CSM and the last line of your quote in particular, Helicity.

William Loire
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.10 00:01:00 - [88]
 

I'm not exactly referring to the CSM letter so much as most of the responses in this thread. You know when Incarna was first announced five years ago, I remember there being very little objection, I didn't see much support but the "this is a spaceship game" bitter vets mostly kept to themselves except for the odd post. Back then there was no capital sunk into Incarna, we weren't just about to receive the product.Now skip ahead to about a year ago. Incarna is about a year from it's initial release we now know. three to four years of development time, resources and capital already in use and suddenly the player base unites against the concept?

There was a time when we could have stood up and said no, that time has long gone. The product is here, get over it. It will barely effect you if you don't want to use it. If you feel the need to quit over Incarna then go have fun trying other MMO's. I did that for a year starting last july and I found myself coming back to make a new character simply because I couldn't find an MMO that satisfies like EVE.

Incarna is coming, you should have spoken up four years ago when it was reasonable for CCP to drop the idea.

Latrodanes
Independent Combat Support Services
Posted - 2011.03.10 00:06:00 - [89]
 

Thanks for getting these points out in the open for all to see. Those of us who have followed the CSM's attempts over the past year have been tracking this, but other players may not have noted the true depth of worry around Incarna. Frankly, if Incarna is to be taken seriously by the player-base, there had better be one helluva huge reveal at this year's Fanfest. Otherwise, I am going to add this to the long list of semi-implemented bits n' pieces I've seen from CCP since I joined back in 2008.

Faction Warfare = fail
Big Industry expansion => Orca
Planetary Interaction => clickfest, or as my wife, an avid Facebook gamer, noted - "it's more boring and uglier than Farmville." PI 2 replaced clickfest with annoying processes = fail
Incursions = happen in only six (6!) random (<cough> BS flag) constellations with little or no impact on the vast amjority of players

We've seen so many half-delivered promises and this is shaping up to be another one. I appreciate good marketing like the next player, but at least all those had quite a bit of planning and some semblence of intent before being released and abandoned. So, based on CCP's previous history, I'm just not going to hold out much faith this expansion will be any different and given the lack of planning, is on track to be worse.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.03.10 03:00:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: William Loire
... You know when Incarna was first announced five years ago, I remember there being very little objection, I didn't see much support but the "this is a spaceship game" bitter vets mostly kept to themselves except for the odd post. Back then there was no capital sunk into Incarna, we weren't just about to receive the product.Now skip ahead to about a year ago. Incarna is about a year from it's initial release we now know. three to four years of development time, resources and capital already in use and suddenly the player base unites against the concept?.....


I would imagine that before the june minutes were released most people like myself thought incarna would be a “6 month of work and then release” deal of like everything else ccp had done. As soon as the players found out that it was going to take 18 months and the rest of eve was to be pretty much abandoned during that time there was the uproar.

No one is necessarily “united against” incarna as a normal release. But it’s obviously just sort of a graphical update to improve immersion for eve. It’s not going to add anything of substance to the actual game and abandoning eve for 18 months is a long time for that. It should be not have been a surprise this was not going to make players happy.

Now we have this csm letter talking about fleshing it out even more – ie longer than 18 months?? Sorry, that really sucks for those of us who like to fly space ships.

It has already been 3 years and fw occupancy still needs 3 or 4 iterations due to it being broken. Everyone acknowledges it is broken. Dominion is only half implemented and then will like need fine tuning. No one is really fighting like they used to before. “the Great wars” are in the past history. Now you hear more about bots than anything else happening in null sec.

And the devs are developing dresses and hair bows instead of new ships. Or worse they trying to figure out what sort of gameplay they can bring with incarna. Some players complain that they want to punch and shoot at each other. But really that is not how wars in this sci fi universe are fought. We have clones and huge space ships! You don’t fight spaceships by kicking them or shooting them with pistols.

I would just ask anyone who wants more than just the basics in incarna: How much more time do we need to wait? We have stuck it out for the 18 months. Players have already been waiting 3 years for a fix to faction war. Do we need to wait another 3 years?

Really, those who want more out of incarna, I just want to know how long the vast majority of resources will be tied up with incarna. In June 2010 I was told they would be tied up until December of 2011. I wasn’t happy but I swallowed it. If they are going to do more “fleshing out” of incarna before they get to any of the broken features I try to interact with in game, I just want to know how much longer this will take.

If csm is just complaining that incarna isn’t good enough for them and they expect more in the same amount of time, well I think that is a bit unrealistic. I don’t know allot about this but I do see that CCP has made these incarna characters look better than any other game I have seen. If it were easy to do this in a mmo, don’t you think lots of games would look that good? That time was spent and they created something really top quality. No you can’t punch a pirate or shoot someone. But that is not how the wars are won here.

Let’s just let them get it out and get back to spaceships. Then as time passes if good ideas come up for it great. But let’s not try to force creativity. The basics are great for incarna. Its looking really nice. That’s fine for now. They can add stuff later.


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