| Author |
Topic |
Yxalitis |
Posted - 2011.02.22 01:55:00 - [ 1]
If I want to see the historical pricing of an eve market commodity, I can do so easily right there in game.
But is there an equivalent system for contracts? I would love to see how the prices of faction gear has shifted over the past year, but can't see this information anywhere? |
Estel Arador |
Posted - 2011.02.22 02:15:00 - [ 2]
Such a feature doesn't exist. |
Yxalitis |
Posted - 2011.02.22 02:18:00 - [ 3]
 Originally by: Estel Arador
Such a feature doesn't exist.
Bugger... You'd think if CCP went to such an effort for the market, they'd figure it would be useful for contracts too... |
Commander Godsmack |
Posted - 2011.02.22 02:28:00 - [ 4]
Actually the absence of a price history on contracts makes that system unique and special in its own way against the regular market; and my vote would go to keep contracts this way.  |
Brock Nelson |
Posted - 2011.02.22 02:54:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Commander Godsmack
Actually the absence of a price history on contracts makes that system unique and special in its own way against the regular market; and my vote would go to keep contracts this way.
+1 |
Liberty Eternal |
Posted - 2011.02.22 03:00:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Commander Godsmack
Actually the absence of a price history on contracts makes that system unique and special in its own way against the regular market; and my vote would go to keep contracts this way.
The absence of price information is a powerful barrier to entry that must surely hinder the contracts market. My vote [if indeed we're voting now] would certainly be in favour of liberating the price mechanism by making the data publicly available. |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
Origin.
Black Legion. |
Posted - 2011.02.22 03:22:00 - [ 7]
The data's available to anyone with enough time and patience to find out what the major sellers of a given contract item have historically sold that item at.
Not everything should be easy; games are no fun without a challenge. |
TipsyMcStagger
Caldari
Spruillo WarDec Corp
|
Posted - 2011.02.22 04:55:00 - [ 8]
Edited by: TipsyMcStagger on 22/02/2011 04:59:00 Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Originally by: Commander Godsmack
Actually the absence of a price history on contracts makes that system unique and special in its own way against the regular market; and my vote would go to keep contracts this way.
The absence of price information is a powerful barrier to entry that must surely hinder the contracts market. My vote [if indeed we're voting now] would certainly be in favour of liberating the price mechanism by making the data publicly available.
A few braincells and some creative research on any unfamiliar item, no huge barrier there are ways to gauge volume and price. The real barrier for serious contracting as opposed to market trading for the budding trader is massive ongoing opportunity cost your going to live with if you take the jump. For those with isk to spare however a sensible spread of buy tracts are a great place to park capital. |
Yxalitis |
Posted - 2011.02.22 05:18:00 - [ 9]
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane
The data's available to anyone with enough time and patience to find out what the major sellers of a given contract item have historically sold that item at.
Not everything should be easy; games are no fun without a challenge.
Sooo, if I want to buy a Dread Guristas Shiny New Hat, and only 3 are on contract, for 10 mill, 12 mill, and 15 mill, how I am I to know if, in fact, these items usually sell for 100,000, and those items are scam contracts... Oh, I see, you're saying I can't, I have to wade through the contracts search system on a daily basis for a few months until I can collate enough data to make an infomred decision... And that's GOOD, is it? I suppose if I was blind, and had to use a braille computer, that would be harder, and therefore even better too? What if I was blind, AND had leprosy..are we getting better and better? Sometimes it's best to step back, and realise what's a "challenge" and what's just bloody annoying! |
Tehg Rhind |
Posted - 2011.02.22 05:57:00 - [ 10]
The one strong argument I have for pushing everything to markets is that it makes it easier for CCP to track. This has 2 consequences:
1) Making it harder for RMTers to launder isk.
2) Gives CCP greater ability to track probable market prices of an item, which could then allow a ship value, hull + mods, to be determined to a degree of accuracy great enough for them to implement the loss-based bounty system which is generally considered unexploitable.
Mainly though I am just whinging because contract trading takes too much time :( |
Commander Godsmack |
Posted - 2011.02.22 06:00:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Yxalitis
Sooo, if I want to buy a Dread Guristas Shiny New Hat, and only 3 are on contract, for 10 mill, 12 mill, and 15 mill, how I am I to know if, in fact, these items usually sell for 100,000.....
Bro, when the market gets bought out and is flipped and holds that position = THAT IS the market {price/rate} for that item. Originally by: Yxalitis
Oh, I see, you're saying I can't, I have to wade through the contracts search system on a daily basis for a few months until I can collate enough data to make an infomred decision...
And that's GOOD, is it?
I suppose if I was blind, and had to use a braille computer, that would be harder, and therefore even better too?
What if I was blind, AND had leprosy..are we getting better and better?
Sometimes it's best to step back, and realise what's a "challenge" and what's just bloody annoying!
Just trade in something else if you dont want to bother with the research. Simple. Also your hypothetical "what if" scenerio is outright obnoxious + ridiclous suggesting you'd even be using a computer under those circumstance. Chill out bro. |
Tehg Rhind |
Posted - 2011.02.22 06:29:00 - [ 12]
The implication of his comment is that making it hard for the sake of making it hard is dumb.
Don't really have a stance on that. I like it that blueprints aren't exactly easy to search for. |
Tenatz
IsTech Industries
|
Posted - 2011.02.22 10:42:00 - [ 13]
Presently there is no way of looking at the price history of contract sales, but by tracking price of items for a couple of months, if you have the time, you can easily see how the price fluctuates. |
Cyniac
Gallente
Twilight Star Rangers |
Posted - 2011.02.22 11:07:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Yxalitis
Sooo, if I want to buy a Dread Guristas Shiny New Hat, and only 3 are on contract, for 10 mill, 12 mill, and 15 mill, how I am I to know if, in fact, these items usually sell for 100,000, and those items are scam contracts...
Oh, I see, you're saying I can't, I have to wade through the contracts search system on a daily basis for a few months until I can collate enough data to make an infomred decision...
And that's GOOD, is it?
In a word - yes. It's good in that it serves a niche purpose (rewarding those who truly know the market). Information can now be gleaned from others sources because most items which are sold through contracts can also be sold through the market which gives you some inkling of their value. Originally by: Yxalitis
I suppose if I was blind, and had to use a braille computer, that would be harder, and therefore even better too?
What if I was blind, AND had leprosy..are we getting better and better?
Sometimes it's best to step back, and realise what's a "challenge" and what's just bloody annoying!
If you were six feet under you'd also have a problem. Straw man argument I'm afraid. Having said that, any visually impaired players of Eve have my utmost respect. Kudos to them all. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.22 11:14:00 - [ 15]
Markets are based on fear, greed and ignorance.
Contract markets nicely show these 3 human properties working together.
The price of fear is low profits
The price of greed is high losses
The price of ignorance is bad spread.
The few (5% or so if the percentage resembles RL in any way) good traders are those who play by taking advantage of the above, instead of undergoing them.
The regular market is the market for baddies, those who 0.01 ISK being those who trade insane slave-time vs actually sitting down and perform some analysis (aka know WTF you are doing).
The contracts market is the market where demand, offer, fear, greed, ignorance are all meshed in plentily and may be played by those who know WTF they are doing.
Basically those who want a fully automated, fully visible, easily predicted and possibly smooth market are those who want the easy way out, quantity vs quality and so on. The others are old style traders who prefer cunning and analysis and niche knowledge. The former is more "past years 1980" style, the latter is pre-1980 style" and I noticed how it's past 1980s that the world economy became unstable, full of cheap but crappy stuff made to earn the quantity over quality and so on. The above is not mixing apples and oranges, it's a clash of two mentalities.
|
Tenatz
IsTech Industries
|
Posted - 2011.02.22 11:33:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Markets are based on fear, greed and ignorance.
Contract markets nicely show these 3 human properties working together.
The price of fear is low profits
The price of greed is high losses
The price of ignorance is bad spread.
The few (5% or so if the percentage resembles RL in any way) good traders are those who play by taking advantage of the above, instead of undergoing them.
The regular market is the market for baddies, those who 0.01 ISK being those who trade insane slave-time vs actually sitting down and perform some analysis (aka know WTF you are doing).
The contracts market is the market where demand, offer, fear, greed, ignorance are all meshed in plentily and may be played by those who know WTF they are doing.
Basically those who want a fully automated, fully visible, easily predicted and possibly smooth market are those who want the easy way out, quantity vs quality and so on. The others are old style traders who prefer cunning and analysis and niche knowledge. The former is more "past years 1980" style, the latter is pre-1980 style" and I noticed how it's past 1980s that the world economy became unstable, full of cheap but crappy stuff made to earn the quantity over quality and so on. The above is not mixing apples and oranges, it's a clash of two mentalities.
Wow, I applaud your comparison between the real world economy and the eve online one. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror |
Posted - 2011.02.22 18:33:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I noticed how it's past 1980s that the world economy became unstable
There are some economic historians (or historical economists) who would point out that even as far back as the 1600's large economies were unstable. MDD |
Commander Godsmack |
Posted - 2011.02.22 20:27:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Markets are based on fear, greed and ignorance.
Contract markets nicely show these 3 human properties working together.
The price of fear is low profits
The price of greed is high losses
The price of ignorance is bad spread.
The few (5% or so if the percentage resembles RL in any way) good traders are those who play by taking advantage of the above, instead of undergoing them.
The regular market is the market for baddies, those who 0.01 ISK being those who trade insane slave-time vs actually sitting down and perform some analysis (aka know WTF you are doing).
The contracts market is the market where demand, offer, fear, greed, ignorance are all meshed in plentily and may be played by those who know WTF they are doing.
Basically those who want a fully automated, fully visible, easily predicted and possibly smooth market are those who want the easy way out,.....
 This is right on the money among reasons that contracts do not not need to be changed because of the superficial inconvenienced whims of joe bloke - +1 VV |
Yxalitis |
Posted - 2011.02.22 23:32:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Commander Godsmack
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Markets are based on fear, greed and ignorance.
Contract markets nicely show these 3 human properties working together.
The price of fear is low profits
The price of greed is high losses
The price of ignorance is bad spread.
The few (5% or so if the percentage resembles RL in any way) good traders are those who play by taking advantage of the above, instead of undergoing them.
The regular market is the market for baddies, those who 0.01 ISK being those who trade insane slave-time vs actually sitting down and perform some analysis (aka know WTF you are doing).
The contracts market is the market where demand, offer, fear, greed, ignorance are all meshed in plentily and may be played by those who know WTF they are doing.
Basically those who want a fully automated, fully visible, easily predicted and possibly smooth market are those who want the easy way out,.....
This is right on the money among reasons that contracts do not not need to be changed because of the superficial inconvenienced whims of joe bloke -
+1 VV
*Looks around nervously O...Kay I see... I thought I was playing a game, but apparently the EVE Market is where economics students go to study a microcosm of global market forces. So, anything that allows me, as a player of a GAME, to have a historic view of pricing of contracts, like I can with the main market..is bad and wrong because I have to STUDY the system as though my real-world prosperity depended on it? You guys are weird…seriously, this is a friggin’ GAME, WTF should I have to have a degree in marketing to buy a product and be reasonably assured that I haven’t spent too much? Maybe the skill books should be real books, you have to find in back-alley 2nd-hand dealers scattered around the globe…so that those who can find them and read them feel superior to those who think…”hey, isn’t this just a game, why should I go through hoops to achieve a micro transaction in a non-existent, make believe world that I only enter to have fun?” Get a freakin life already…sheesh! |
Liberty Eternal |
Posted - 2011.02.22 23:53:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Markets are based on fear, greed and ignorance.
Why so cynical? A market is simply a mechanism for buying and selling where there is competition on at least one side of the transaction. Markets are very rational and largely stable - which is why the few exceptions are so easy to see. The idea that markets are semi-predatory mechanisms where the illuminated few prey on the weaknesses of the deluded many is not true in my opinion. In terms of gameplay, I'm sure the contract markets are a very interesting challenge for the traders who are in them. However, in terms of utility for the customer, it would be better to move all the contract items onto the regular markets so that information is easily available and capital can flow through them more rapidly. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.23 00:41:00 - [ 21]
Quote:
I thought I was playing a game, but apparently the EVE Market is where economics students go to study a microcosm of global market forces.
EvE has its economy, its materials, its rules so there's not a 1:1 similarity with RL. EvE has humans dictating the rules (both on CCP and players sides) and the mental reactions / feelings / sentiment are implemented in us regardless of applying them in RL or in a game. Just notice how - like in RL - there's the huge majority of people slaving at minimal wages (100k courier wages, "minerals are free" guys, 1% market gains with hours of babysitting...) while - as per QEN - there's a minority of "seniors" reaping the benefits. Quote:
You guys are weird…seriously, this is a friggin’ GAME, WTF should I have to have a degree in marketing to buy a product and be reasonably assured that I haven’t spent too much?
Just do like everyone else and do your friggin' homeworks? It does not take a master in economics to see how much stuff is selling for and to react accordingly. Quote:
Why so cynical? A market is simply a mechanism for buying and selling where there is competition on at least one side of the transaction.
Cynical? This is what they teach in at least two pay-for RL trading courses. I only added one term: "ignorance", because knowledge obfuscation is a big weapon in the hands of a market maker. |
Yxalitis |
Posted - 2011.02.23 02:30:00 - [ 22]
Edited by: Yxalitis on 23/02/2011 02:52:35 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Just do like everyone else and do your friggin' homeworks? It does not take a master in economics to see how much stuff is selling for and to react accordingly.
I can't pop into a contract search, find an item of interest, and "do my homework" there and then...like I can - and this is my main point of contention - with the normal market. This research requires me to fire up the contacts applet every day for as long as I feel I need to, and try and determine the sell price for every contract...which I can never be 100% sure about, as once a contract is completed, I can't see what the final bid was. I may have to do this for a month or more...just to be sure that I have a reasonable idea of the price.. You see I DO this already! My post was to suggest that this mindless method of contract monitoring is tedious for anyone...except people like you who seem to like economics. I don't play EVE for it market simulation aspects, I play EVE for it's pew pew BOOM! Gosh pretty spaceships...aspects. It would be like Sim City requiring a social engineering degree to know how to make the trains run on time. All I want is to see historic market contracts. Is that really too hard? |
Commander Godsmack |
Posted - 2011.02.23 05:48:00 - [ 23]
|
Caldariftw123 |
Posted - 2011.02.23 12:29:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Commander Godsmack
For the sake of pew-pew, seeing the price history serves you no purpose at all what-soever since your probably looking to fit faction mods you need to be able to accept differences of tens of millions or more and also you don't spend months just to fit a ship; you fit it right then and there and whatever the market happens to be right then and there is irrelevant to its history vs your budget you have made to build your ship.
Heh exactly .. the market history information is a trading tool, sure it might let a buyer get an idea of whether they are over or under paying for a good, but the price at the moment they want to buy it is the market price that they are concerned with - they are either willing to pay it, or they are not and can find some other module instead. Whatever the price is though is the market price, that is what you pay if you want the good there and then. This contract price history idea wouldn't work though anyway, practically speaking contracts can contain all sorts of items, how are you supposed to determine the high/low/average/quantity for individual items in there? If someone pays 400mill for a rigged and fitted battleship, and someone else pays 30mill for the ship alone and another 150mill for the items seperately, then what price would each item and the ship show in the contract history? It's an unwieldy device for the secondary market, and don't forget that it is a SECONDARY market, it is meant to be different. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.23 13:17:00 - [ 25]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 23/02/2011 13:18:24 Quote:
I can't pop into a contract search, find an item of interest, and "do my homework" there and then...like I can - and this is my main point of contention - with the normal market
This is odd, because it's what I do. There are about two types of contracted stuff: - high volume - low volume. The former is very easy, just apply some approximate formula like I published in RAW23 audit report. The latter is also easy, because the 2-3 items you'll find ARE the market, and you have the option of crashing it and sell fast or undercut a little and have the item sold slower. Of course if there are just 2-3 items in a market it's because that market is not so hot, so expect to have to wait. Quote:
I may have to do this for a month or more...just to be sure that I have a reasonable idea of the price..
Nah, I have sold some billions worth of stuff and never had to do 1/10 of that. This is the fun and challenging part of contracts: YOU make the market. You are waiting for some other trader to pave the easy way out for you, it's not going to happen. If you don't feel like competing in a niche (and thus potentially more profitable) market then you should stick to the regular market. Quote:
All I want is to see historic market contracts.
So, what kind of graph is going to be significant for i.e. a 5 run faction BPC vs a guy selling the 1 run (same BPC, just got it thru the navy instead of science)? How do you sort a 15 run BPC ME 150 PE 50 vs a 5 run BPC ME 150 PE 50 vs a 5 run BPC ME 100 PE 100? Quote:
I don't play EVE for it market simulation aspects, I play EVE for it's pew pew BOOM
Then give your stuff to someone who knows the market and share the profit. Some of my former corp mates did that, no blame on someone who wants to do A and not B. |
Yxalitis |
Posted - 2011.02.23 21:54:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Commander Godsmack
Your doing it wrong.
Quote:
just to be sure that I have a reasonable idea of the price..
Originally by: Yxalitis
I don't play EVE for it market simulation aspects, I play EVE for it's pew pew BOOM! Gosh pretty spaceships...aspects.
All I want is to see historic market contracts.
For the sake of pew-pew, seeing the price history serves you no purpose at all what-soever since your probably looking to fit faction mods you need to be able to accept differences of tens of millions or more and also you don't spend months just to fit a ship; you fit it right then and there and whatever the market happens to be right then and there is irrelevant to its history vs your budget you have made to build your ship.
Rubbish, You're saying that anyone who plays Eve to fight ships, is NOT interested in making sure they aren't being ripped by contract prices... I desire a new module, I whip open the contacts window, and start searching, this DOES NOT mean I HAVE to BUY IT NOW...what a stupid comment! Players of all types PLAN their fits, RESEARCH them for ages, your notion of how Ev eplayers buy and fit ships is GARBAGE... Originally by: Commander Godsmack
Your doing it wrong.
Great, pray tell me how I should be doing it? |
Yxalitis |
Posted - 2011.02.23 22:01:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
lots of useful comments and helpful advice
Thank you for a measured, and helpful response...I will bow to your superior marketing knowledge, and leave now to polish my shiny spaceship.  |
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