| Author |
Topic |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.11 04:08:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 11/02/2011 06:31:54
First of all: the price of wardec is laughably low.
I suggest the initial fee increased from 50M total to 10M per each member of your corp. Also, the daily fee should be around 1M per each member of your corp (maybe 0.2M for those offline for more than a day).
Second: I suggest "bribe auctions".
Let's say corp AA (60 members) wants do wardec corp BB (12 members).
CEO of AA goes to the nearest CONCORD station (yes, no more declaration of war by phone crap) and pays 10M per each of 60 members to apply for a wardec with BB, flushing 600M isk out of the game.
BB is immediately notified of this, and if, within 24 hours, no action is taken, the war is approved by CONCORD, and AA only needs to pay 60M per day. Candies.
Let's say BB calculated possible losses and wants to opt out. He/she goes to the CONCORD station, and pays AA's wardec fee PLUS a wardec fee for BB. That's 60*10+12*10=720M isk. AA is immediately notified and is required to either give even more money (sum above plus ANOTHER wardec fee, effectively 1.32 bil) or wardec is declined by CONCORD. In 24 hours after this, AA can apply for a wardec again, for the initial amount of cash, should they want it.
Pro:
- no more lulzdec (carebear side)
- less isk in the economy
Contra:
- no more lulzdec (gankermeat side)
- no easy "ah screw it, just wardec them" solutions
Weak point: corp member numbers.
Counter: I suggest recruiting freeze for the period of agreement. That's a half-assed solution though. |
Miacacea |
Posted - 2011.02.11 06:46:00 - [ 2]
Edited by: Miacacea on 11/02/2011 06:49:12
Edited by: Miacacea on 11/02/2011 06:46:39
Like to little bit change name of it :)
not bribe but object wardec via Concord.
also wardec corp must have 2 weeks recruit freeze after making wardec and both corp must have freeze until decision on war will be taken. also imho good to have wardec maker freeze for 2 weeks if target corp object it and wardec corp not put on war or 24H passed without actions from initial wardecing corp (ex. if corp A make wardec on B and B object it via appropriate sum, A can make insist on it by putting more for wardec or after 24H pass will be not able to make wardec to corp B for next 1/2 weeks)
also i think good to have some kind multiplier for hit and run corp (very few members 1-5) when they make wardec for corp like 20+ so will pay more for initial wardec and more daily.
|
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance |
Posted - 2011.02.11 08:22:00 - [ 3]
 Quote:
Let's say corp AA (60 members) wants do wardec corp BB (12 members).
CEO of AA goes to the nearest CONCORD station (yes, no more declaration of war by phone crap) and pays 10M per each of 60 members to apply for a wardec with BB, flushing 600M isk out of the game.
ah huh, so AA-giantswarm wants to dec BB-pipsqueek because they are encroaching into their lowsec space from highsec and are attacking hit and run. Giantswarm have 3000+ members, so 10 mill x 3000 = 30 billion for their wardec is that about it then? Anyone else is some issues here? The cost could stand to be increased a little but this is ridiculous. I do like the buy off bidding war with concord though. |
Miacacea |
Posted - 2011.02.11 13:07:00 - [ 4]
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
ah huh, so AA-giantswarm wants to dec BB-pipsqueek because they are encroaching into their lowsec space from highsec and are attacking hit and run. Giantswarm have 3000+ members, so 10 mill x 3000 = 30 billion for their wardec is that about it then?
Anyone else is some issues here?
The cost could stand to be increased a little but this is ridiculous.
I do like the buy off bidding war with concord though.
for gigant corps must exist alliances which have 'police' corps who will take care about how to defent lowsec/controlled territory. No need to swarm-corp wardec or really big corp must take responsibility if they like to make fullscale attack on 'popsqueek' corp. alli wardec is different topic and must be clarified differently. |
Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED |
Posted - 2011.02.11 13:10:00 - [ 5]
Why not bribe the agressors to back down instead of bribing concord?
Oh wait, you already can. |
Miacacea |
Posted - 2011.02.11 13:21:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Why not bribe the agressors to back down instead of bribing concord?
Oh wait, you already can.
because concord is 'law' on high sec territory... it have meaning to add this feature, but imho must be revised from all angles... it's looks like more wild west, where gang can bribe sheriff to make some nasty actions of controlled territory instead make agreement with victims |
Mocam |
Posted - 2011.02.11 13:27:00 - [ 7]
It's got some promise but I think you need to rework it a bit.
Alliances can grow huge and this encourages "hiding" in vast alliances. 20,000 member alliance in highsec. Who is going to wardec them - EVER? Bad approach and it would happen if it were found to be the way to play safe in highsec.
It would kill being part of a small corporation as small would be the only affordable targets to ever pick on. It would also encourage bullying, by major alliances, into joining them or perpetually being wardec'd by them as a small corporation.
Bidding wars might work and could prove interesting. Use a "blind bid" method with current highest-bid winner showing. When the war goes live, high bid decides if it does go live or is canceled. All fees kept by CONCORD. So it always costs to dec and try and prevent a dec.
So you can buy protection but it may cost a lot. They can "grief dec" you repeatedly *IF* you overbid by too much or you can figure out how to just beat their bid. If you beat it, they might just "penny up" to beat you but... Lots of good fun by those trying to grief as well as those trying to avoid it. |
Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2011.02.11 14:23:00 - [ 8]
And what about groups like us?
WE have 270 members, of which 40 are actually active and log in once a week. We currently have 33,000 potential war targets costing us BILLIONS a week to maintain.
Do we get a break because we are attacking much much larger groups? Or do we get screwed too? And if we get screwed, exactly WHO is going to interfere with the 0.0 alliances and keep their members from doing whatever they want where ever they want?
We get PAID by small groups to protect them from larger groups and large alliances. We also get paid by large missioning and mining corps to protect them from tiny griefer corps.
I've seen 80 memeber corps get literally destroyed (as in lost all but a handful of players) because they couldn't organize well enough to fight off a corp of 5 players who were less than 2 months old. TWO MONTHS.
Eve is about combat. It requires ships destroyed to keep its market going. Its core foundation is on combat. As a game it can't survive without it. You have plenty of ways to survive/beat griefers that you describe, including the best way which is to quit spouting crap in local and ****ing people off. Most "griefer" corps attacking defenseless missioning and mining groups were actually paid to do so by someone else who is mad at them....
By the way, I used to think like you do. Took me a long time to realize how eve was. |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.11 14:27:00 - [ 9]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Why not bribe the agressors to back down instead of bribing concord?
Oh wait, you already can.
If you bribe aggressors, it means: a) You must offer them much more then they can ever hope to gain by war. b) ISKs stay in the economy, which kinda defeats a half of the purpose. c) CONCORD honors deals. People don't. |
MoonglumX |
Posted - 2011.02.11 14:33:00 - [ 10]
It would be nice if in game we had a merc rating and searching system. Then you could just use that "bribe" money to pay off a merc corp to reverse war deck. That would keep the players involved and circulate the isk to somebody who is going to use it for pew pew.
One of the features lacking in EVE is that no corp/individual can give a thumbs up/thumbs down rating to other corps so we all know who can be trusted or not. I wouldn't mind paying a merc corp if I knew they were reputable without having to do days of research and check kill board statics.
Only problem is rating padding I guess. Some corps could just get everybody to thumbs up them. But still, people pad kill boards too. We could allow comments on the ratings, so they can see WHY people gave good or bad ratings. |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.11 14:34:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Mocam
All fees kept by CONCORD.
Yes, it's exactly the intent. Corp 1 (40 ppl) attacks corp 2 (20 ppl). First fee: 40*10=400M isk. Fee to counter it: 400+20*10=600M isk. Fee to counter a counter: 600+400*10=1B isk. Fee to counter a counter of counter: 1B+20*10=1.2B. Etc, etc, etc. All ISKs spent on each round of this "opt-out auction" are kept by CONCORD. In the example above, total amount of ISKs flushed from the economy would be 1200+1000+600+400=3.2bil Originally by: Mocam
They can "grief dec" you
That's why the dynamic war efforts cost is suggested. Okay, you bid 1bil against their 0.6bil. Okay, they sit in the docks, and you pay 40M daily for it. Stings even for big corps. Therefore, this system counters "grief decs". Or, as I call them, lulzdecs. |
WitchKingOfAgamar |
Posted - 2011.02.11 14:53:00 - [ 12]
Not supported. There are already numerous ways to avoid grief decs (from: "join an alliance that can fight" to "everyone join NPC corps for the war duration") |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.11 16:29:00 - [ 13]
Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 11/02/2011 16:29:17 Originally by: WitchKingO***amar
Not supported. There are already numerous ways to avoid grief decs (from: "join an alliance that can fight" to "everyone join NPC corps for the war duration")
Again, one word: POS. Edit: I love how it censors your name. ^_^ |
Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2011.02.11 18:34:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga
Again, one word: POS.
Edit: I love how it censors your name. ^_^
Wardecc'd with a POS? You have 24 hrs to pull it down and pack it away. Remove it from the target zone and your wardec will cancel next week because most likely someone probably hired them to take you out. We get contracts all the time to remove a POS, either because the corp ticked off our employer or sometimes the employer wanted to put THEIR POS in that spot. What you are asking for is a money-printing machine with no risk at all. You know the rules, deal with them  If you are having issues with wardecs, move to a quieter portion of space; that is what we did when I was care bearing with POSs up..... |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.11 18:47:00 - [ 15]
Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 11/02/2011 18:52:56 Originally by: Mikalya
Wardecc'd with a POS? You have 24 hrs to pull it down and pack it away.
Yeah. Instead of tipping off concord and staying the way I am. How much the removal of that pos is worth to ones wanting it? As you know, money talks, bullshït walks. Originally by: Mikalya
a quieter portion of space
There is no such thing. Sooner or later, someone will want to put a pos at your spot, or just to make a pignata out of it, or just dec you for lulz, to watch you mothballing it in a hurry. Current wardec costs allow it, quite freely. 40M/day is an average income of an average casual L4 mission runner. Two days income, now, means (80-50)/2=15 days of fun. For just one pilot. A medium-sized corp can indulge itself to much more griefing. |
Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2011.02.11 19:05:00 - [ 16]
Edited by: Mikalya on 11/02/2011 19:06:14 Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga
Yeah. Instead of tipping off concord and staying the way I am.
How much the removal of that pos is worth to ones wanting it? As you know, money talks, bull**** walks.
Upwards of billions, and we keep loot drops and modules normally. Lucrative business.... Quote:
There is no such thing.
Sooner or later, someone will want to put a pos at your spot, or just to make a pignata out of it, or just dec you for lulz, to watch you mothballing it in a hurry. Current wardec costs allow it, quite freely. 40M/day is an average income of an average casual L4 mission runner. Two days income, now, means (80-50)/2=15 days of fun. For just one pilot. A medium-sized corp can indulge itself to much more griefing.
Hogwash. Look around, there are lightly populated spaces in Caldari space. And high Caldari standings means you are close to Amarr standings, which has LOTS of empty systems. Keep to yourself, don't advertise your presence and quit whining on the forums and your issues will go away. Draw attention to yourself and they won't. This very post can cause you more issues because now people know you are an easy target If I was running a small merc corp looking for a fat target I would come calling and demanding ransom because I KNOW you can't fight back. Grow some, fight back and protect your assets. Don't be a victim. By the way, when Ad0pt wardecs someone, we only charge the person what it costs us to issue the dec. But since we target 100+ active member corporations and alliances on our own dime FIRST, if someone was to approach us to wardec you it would costs upwards of a billion ISK a week right now JUST TO COVER THE WARDEC FEES. And people still pay it because they want their enemies gone that bad. Wardecs are serious business for organizations like us. And you should be happy about it, with groups like us around you don't have near the number of goons around suiciding people for the fun of it, which you appear to not like based on your other posts in this forum. You still haven't answered my other question: For groups like ours where we are wardeccing alliances which are 10x and more our size, how much do we pay on your bright idea? We have 40 active players with 270 in our entire alliance, we have 33k wartargets as of last night. What does it cost for us to keep the mean 0.0 gankers from suiciding your haulers for fun? |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.11 19:42:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Mikalya
Upwards of billions, and we keep loot drops and modules normally. Lucrative business...
Exactly. So the effort for making this possible must be in more or less the same category. That spot is worth 20 bil to you? Alright, pay 10 bil to the mercs so they'll open a wardec and remove that eyesore. Originally by: Mikalya
Hogwash. Look around, there are lightly populated spaces in Caldari space.
Yeah. Plenty. Though all known to pirates who want to move from a rattle of big city and go on a homicidal rage in suburbs. Kinda defeats the purpose, in my book. You can lower the chances of being killed, but you'll never get them to zero. But any pirate, willing enough, can have a guaranteed kill on any target. So, what we have is a one-sided no-risk system. Probably reward wouldn't be high, but still, with zero risk, you can do whatever you please. Originally by: Mikalya
Keep to yourself, don't advertise your presence and quit whining on the forums and your issues will go away.
Yeah, yeah, an Elusive Joe tactic. Good thing, it is. Doesn't protect you from being a random target though. With my luck, it happens juuuuust a little more often than I can cope with. Originally by: Mikalya
This very post can cause you more issues because now people know you are an easy target
Everyone without a long story of involvement with some major alliance is an easy target. I wonder though, why there are easy targets, but no easy covers to balance things out? Why hauler has to plan and do research, LOSING his fun AND time, while gankers just have to bring in more muscle, GAINING fun at almost no time cost? Originally by: Mikalya
Grow some, fight back and protect your assets. Don't be a victim.
No one can protect her or his assets. In eve, it's impossible by design. You can make others to try and protect some of the assets, yes - at the cost of substantial time loss and nerves strain, which doesn't apply for the aggressor. The point is, you suggest methods of counter-action that will kill only the carebear's fun while actually ADDING to a pirate's, be it a single player or a corp, in both cases. Let me show you. Case 1. Pirate: lol i kil u Carebear: no u dont * Carebear brings mythical mercs-that-honor-contracts Pirate: oh more pewpew! sweet! thx! Case 2. Pirate: lol i kil u Carebear: no u dont * Carebear hides Pirate: lololol u js try to undoc! thx4tears! See? Every suggestion "solving" the problem doesn't actually solve it, it just makes it more fun for the aggressor, therefore breeding more aggression and worsening the entire thing in the longer run. There must be a way that involves things pirate doesn't like and doesn't want to do just as much as a carebear doesn't like to dogpile and pewpew. Originally by: Mikalya
it would costs upwards of a billion ISK a week right now JUST TO COVER THE WARDEC FEES
And this is bad because?.. Originally by: Mikalya
you don't have near the number of goons around suiciding people for the fun of it, which you appear to not like based on your other posts in this forum.
Then it must be just my luck. I never sent a killmail, and for three damned years never even showed up on the forum. Still, as soon as I turn to non-combat activities (unless I'm hauling bpo's in a t3 ship), someone makes a pignata out of me, usually in a couple of weeks. Still, the problem stands. Eve must not be all about luck. Originally by: Mikalya
What does it cost for us to keep the mean 0.0 gankers from suiciding your haulers for fun?
Half of my daily profits should do okay. If it's more, it wouldn't pay off. |
Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2011.02.11 20:39:00 - [ 18]
You know, maybe JUST MAYBE Eve isn't the game for you. At some point you have to evaluate that. Eve is not intended to be safe, at any time. The Devs have said so, game mechanics say so. You CAN minimize your losses and be 99% or higher safe if you are careful. If that isn't good enough, so be it. Its like griping that you get head shotted repeatedly in Unreal; the game is what it is. Moving to less populated areas works; when I was care bearing we did it. Counter-hiring mercs against your enemies works. We did it. Fighting back works, we did it. We successfully ticked someone off and ran through a 4 month string of multiple war decs and FOUGHT THEM OFF. Afterwards we stuck around just long enough to let everyone know we weren't afraid, then found a nice quiet system to put our POSes in. Ran for 2 more years without any war decs until we finally disbanded due to RL commitments. We formed contracts with merc corps for ships and equipment, created friends and dealt with the problem within the game's boundaries and had more fun for it (and made a crap-load of ISKies). I also had a toon in the largest highsec industrial alliance ever to exist in eve; we had over 70 POSs in High Sec with their locations published. We allowed corporations to bounce in and out of the alliance almost at will so they could use our facilities without having to put up their own towers. We also had ISK could hire muscle to protect us. We had ONE wardec the entire time I was involved which resulted in the loss of one medium tower that was obviously chosen even before the dec went active; they were hoping for ransom. Our POS was in an out-of-the way location and looked like a death star with 25 weapons emplacements and corp members who knew how to use them. Nasty in battleship-only High Sec; I almost regret I never had cause to use them as I could have flown 3 more labs instead but we consciously chose to defend it... Now almost all of our old corp is back in game, most of us flying with PvP corps or pirates. Prior to the wardecs we were just like you and ranted against PvP, pirates, suicide gankers and WarDecs  The war dec system and suicide ganking has been nerfed several times in the past. You aren't proclaiming anything new, other than you don't know just how good you have it now. Anything further removes a style of game-play from the game, which CCP has said multiple times is a valid style and intended to exist. Hello Kitty Onlineand My Little Ponyare that way  |
MoonglumX |
Posted - 2011.02.11 23:04:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Mikalya
You know, maybe JUST MAYBE Eve isn't the game for you. At some point you have to evaluate that.
Eve is not intended to be safe, at any time. The Devs have said so, game mechanics say so. You CAN minimize your losses and be 99% or higher safe if you are careful. If that isn't good enough, so be it. Its like griping that you get head shotted repeatedly in Unreal; the game is what it is.
Moving to less populated areas works; when I was care bearing we did it. Counter-hiring mercs against your enemies works. We did it. Fighting back works, we did it. We successfully ticked someone off and ran through a 4 month string of multiple war decs and FOUGHT THEM OFF. Afterwards we stuck around just long enough to let everyone know we weren't afraid, then found a nice quiet system to put our POSes in. Ran for 2 more years without any war decs until we finally disbanded due to RL commitments. We formed contracts with merc corps for ships and equipment, created friends and dealt with the problem within the game's boundaries and had more fun for it (and made a crap-load of ISKies).
I also had a toon in the largest highsec industrial alliance ever to exist in eve; we had over 70 POSs in High Sec with their locations published. We allowed corporations to bounce in and out of the alliance almost at will so they could use our facilities without having to put up their own towers. We also had ISK could hire muscle to protect us. We had ONE wardec the entire time I was involved which resulted in the loss of one medium tower that was obviously chosen even before the dec went active; they were hoping for ransom. Our POS was in an out-of-the way location and looked like a death star with 25 weapons emplacements and corp members who knew how to use them. Nasty in battleship-only High Sec; I almost regret I never had cause to use them as I could have flown 3 more labs instead but we consciously chose to defend it...
Now almost all of our old corp is back in game, most of us flying with PvP corps or pirates. Prior to the wardecs we were just like you and ranted against PvP, pirates, suicide gankers and WarDecs
The war dec system and suicide ganking has been nerfed several times in the past. You aren't proclaiming anything new, other than you don't know just how good you have it now. Anything further removes a style of game-play from the game, which CCP has said multiple times is a valid style and intended to exist.
Hello Kitty Online
and
My Little Pony
are that way
I mostly agree with what you are saying. The only fixes I see for war decs are a more stream lined way of doing what you were suggesting, such as an easy way to find mercs that best fit the war dec at hand. When my corp was war decced we just didn't know who to hire to fit our needs. It just seems a pain to wade through dozens of mercs and not know what you are getting. I guess that is easily fixed by experience, but it is nice to have less steep learning curves to see progress in game. My ideology is that this is a social game, so it is best to look to your fellow players to fix a problem, rather than running straight to CCP. |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.12 03:13:00 - [ 20]
Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 12/02/2011 03:15:09Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 12/02/2011 03:13:12 Originally by: Mikalya
You know, maybe JUST MAYBE Eve isn't the game for you. At some point you have to evaluate that.
Did it already. Other mmos do not have the variety eve can offer, so I stay here. Originally by: Mikalya
Eve is not intended to be safe, at any time.
Yes, I know. That's my entire point: that eve IS safe - for gankers. Nothing threatens their playstyle, and there is very little you can do to lower their fun. Originally by: Mikalya
Moving to less populated areas works; when I was care bearing we did it.
Try this thing now. Move with a hulk to some location, go mining during gankfest and tell me when it's gonna go poof. Originally by: Mikalya
Counter-hiring mercs against your enemies works. We did it.
What can I say? You were lucky. But don't you dare to tell me to test my chances with like 1% probability. Mercenaries are 99% scam, just 'cause they don't have a reason no to take your money and say goodbye. Same thing with the ransom - one of the hundred times, maybe, you can meet someone who'll honour the deal, yes - but it's still just luck. Originally by: Mikalya
Fighting back works, we did it.
"We" is the keyword. Yes, I can turn into a corporate cog and hide behind it, but it limits my freedom of operation just as much as random gankers do. Maybe even more. Originally by: Mikalya
We successfully ticked someone off and ran through a 4 month string of multiple war decs and FOUGHT THEM OFF.
Lucky you. What does it prove? As far as I can see it - only that dogpiling really works, but, hey, where did I deny that? Originally by: Mikalya
Afterwards we stuck around just long enough to let everyone know we weren't afraid, then found a nice quiet system to put our POSes in.
You'll be happy to know it ain't possible anymore. Player base grows, hisecs don't. Originally by: Mikalya
We also had ISK could hire muscle to protect us.
I take the liberty of not believing they were working for you out of goodwill. You must've had some means to make their life miserable if they don't do their job. Originally by: Mikalya
Now almost all of our old corp is back in game, most of us flying with PvP corps or pirates. Prior to the wardecs we were just like you and ranted against PvP, pirates, suicide gankers and WarDecs
So now you've came to like to ruining others' game, eh? Figures. I still don't. Sorry. Originally by: Mikalya
The war dec system and suicide ganking has been nerfed several times in the past. You aren't proclaiming anything new, other than you don't know just how good you have it now.
Having horsepower replaced with steampower is nice, but it doesn't mean we don't have to invent electricity. Originally by: Mikalya
Anything further removes a style of game-play from the game, which CCP has said multiple times is a valid style and intended to exist.
They said the same thing before the "nerfs" you're talking about, but still did them. |
Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2011.02.12 03:40:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga
Originally by: Mikalya
You know, maybe JUST MAYBE Eve isn't the game for you. At some point you have to evaluate that.
Did it already. Other mmos do not have the variety eve can offer, so I stay here.
I'm only going to bother answering two things as you are completely wrong on so much... 1) You left for other MMOs and keep coming back to Eve for its "variety". Yet your goal is to REMOVE that variety for other players to make it conform to YOUR idea of a perfect game.  2) I have worked with several DOZEN merc groups, including the one I am flying with. As both aggressor and defender. Supplying them will equipment, negotiating low-sec and 0.0 minerals, etc. I have never had an agreement dishonored. Ever. Not one lie, not one ISK took not earned, not one scam. Established Merc corps are very very sensitive about their reputation, new Merc corps will work for free or dirt cheap to earn that same reputation. Do your research and chose wisely based on talking to their previous targets and employers and you won't go wrong. Honestly, you don't belong here perhaps you should either admit it or adjust. Nothing wrong with that, Eve isn't for everyone. |
Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2011.02.12 03:51:00 - [ 22]
Edited by: Mikalya on 12/02/2011 03:55:06Changed my mind  Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga
"We" is the keyword. Yes, I can turn into a corporate cog and hide behind it, but it limits my freedom of operation just as much as random gankers do. Maybe even more.
Our corp had 25 active players. Hmm, this IS a MASSIVELY MULTI-PLAYER Online game... Quote:
You'll be happy to know it ain't possible anymore. Player base grows, hisecs don't.
Out of curiosity I checked out our old haunts. Less than 10 jumps from Jita. 7 pilots in the 4 systems we played around in. 0 ships killed in ANY of them in the last 24 hours. Less than 10 jumps in the previous hour. And ONE POS in the dozen moons. You aren't looking hard enough. |
Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2011.02.12 04:01:00 - [ 23]
|
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.12 05:08:00 - [ 24]
Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 12/02/2011 05:38:32Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 12/02/2011 05:17:38 Originally by: Mikalya
You left for other MMOs and keep coming back to Eve for its "variety". Yet your goal is to REMOVE that variety for other players to make it conform to YOUR idea of a perfect game.
How do expensive wardecs remove the variety from eve? Surely not all of this is coming from lulzdecs and random gankfests. I understand that the opposition is crucial for development, but I just don't get why not keep it um... no, not as little as possible, that was done in several UO shards and ended up boring... but, shall we say, controlled? Originally by: Mikalya
I have worked with several DOZEN merc groups, including the one I am flying with. I have never had an agreement dishonored. Ever. Not one lie, not one ISK took not earned, not one scam.
Okay, so if I request protection for my pos and pay them, what exactly do they lose if they scam me? I see no way I can hurt a big badass corp in return, unless I devote a substantial part of my life to getting my revenge through politics. Even if I succeed, it will be hardly of any compensation, since all they had to do is say "meh, goodbye", while I'll have to spend MONTHS on making them pay for it a jack. Yes, I know mercs can honor the bargain. But they have no reason to do so unless they depend on you in one way or the other. Trusting random people, no matter their reputation, is inviting scam, just as stuffing a hauler with t2 bpos is inviting gank, no matter the system security. Originally by: Mikalya
Out of curiosity I checked out our old haunts. Less than 10 jumps from Jita. 7 pilots in the 4 systems we played around in. 0 ships killed in ANY of them in the last 24 hours. Less than 10 jumps in the previous hour. And ONE POS in the dozen moons.
You aren't looking hard enough.
First of all, no kills in recent 24 hours doesn't mean there were no kills in recent 25 hours. Second, what the system's security status and the belts count? Less than ten makes it obsolete, since just one macrominer wipes out six of them in one day. Third, what's the local? I hope it's well under ten people, or you'll have a REMOVE YER POS DAMMIT or LOLOLOL POS PEWPEW gang knocking on your front door real soon. I've put eight POSs in my eve life. Two of them were taken down through a wardec - one was the first and I thought I could protect it, the second I've trusted to mercs and they left at the first sign of trouble. The other six I had to either mothball or relocate in two weeks to three months of operation. Systems I chose were all with low (under 20 ppl) local, and MORE than 10 jumps from ANY major hub (not just Jita, but Rens, Dodixie, Oursulaert, Motsu, Hek and Amarr as well). |
Christoph Rieken |
Posted - 2011.02.12 05:18:00 - [ 25]
Cool idea, the prices you suggest are insane though... It needs to cost more but not as much as you suggest.
CONCORD bribing sounds awesome too.. It won't really matter in low/null though. |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.12 05:24:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Christoph Rieken
Cool idea, the prices you suggest are insane though... It needs to cost more but not as much as you suggest.
CONCORD bribing sounds awesome too.. It won't really matter in low/null though.
Why insane? One (just one!) L4 mission runner makes 40 mil a day on relaxed schedule, in hisec space. It's enough to fuel the 4 ppl's war expenses if the corp has 10% tax. So, if your 40ppl corp have ten of them, you can wage your war at your leisure. But then, again, I agree I don't see something important in this, so numbers really need to be corrected. I won't argue about that ^_^ |
Joe McAlt |
Posted - 2011.02.12 07:42:00 - [ 27]
Not supported. As annoying as being grief dec'd is there are many ways to beat one if you are creative.
the War Dec system works. No need to monkey with it. |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.12 18:22:00 - [ 28]
Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 12/02/2011 18:22:33 Originally by: Joe McAlt
As annoying as being grief dec'd is there are many ways to beat one if you are creative.
Yes, there are ways. However, they are all juuuust a bit more difficult to pull off than pressing an I DECLARE WAR LOL button. Originally by: Joe McAlt
the War Dec system works. No need to monkey with it.
Steam also works. No reason to invent gasoline and electricity, eh? |
Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage |
Posted - 2011.02.12 19:27:00 - [ 29]
Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga
Steam also works. No reason to invent gasoline and electricity, eh?
Uhm, you do realize that electricity is generated with STEAM, right? Any electrical plant that uses nuclear, coal, gas, etc converts the raw energy to steam to drive the generators to make electricity.... Just like war. You really think that you could even make money on a POS without war losses driving your profits? I WOULD like to congratulate you on teh spin though. Your proclamation of how damaging war was to small corps getting griefed by larger corps was nice, especially since you alluded to being small with your examples of small vs. mid-sized griefers. But your example falls apart since your alliance is almost 15 TIMES the size of your examples. You still haven't answered my question though. With less than 200 players (we kicked inactive accounts), we are wardeccing alliances that have thousands of members, and are at war with 35 thousand targets right now. All of them self-proclaimed PvP corporations or 0.0 land owners. Based on your sliding scale we should get a BREAK as we are definately the underdogs. Or what about my alt, whom at 1 month old joined with 3 other 1 month old players and literally destroyed an 80 person corporation. We should have been obliterated; and as the underdogs should have had a serious break in the cost. As far as your "not fair", in that case it was specifically because of the treatment we received while part of that corporation; it was the only way we could revenge the treatment we received. Or what about my previous main, who was part of a very friendly corp that was seriously hurt by a corp theft. Some of us returned 3 years later to revenge our previous compatriots against THAT individual. Again, very small number of us (6) against 50 active. Again we tore them apart. Again, directly because what they did to us. I used to hate the wardec system also. As I've played more and watched more I've discovered that it is the only way a small group or individual can strike back. You are NOT small, you should be able to take on and defeat almost anything that is willing to hit you. Quit being the victim and learn to fight. Hell, you can even hire mercs to TRAIN you in how to fight. Or send your alts to Eve-uni for experience, or to RvB (Red vs Blue), or take courses from Agony-Unleashed. It is your CHOICE to be defenseless. I still think that if you are constantly having issues most likely you ****ed someone off in the past and this is the price for it. Random "greifing" on a continual basis ins't random As far as your comments on mercs, you are so full of it  "Nothing to keep them from taking my money", how about "If we fail at a contract we don't get any more". They earn they ISK by shooting people under contract, if they fail to deliver they don't get paid by the next group. Don't just grab the first to apply though, you have to verify references. |
Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.02.12 20:16:00 - [ 30]
Edited by: Suiginryou Hitaiga on 12/02/2011 20:20:46 Originally by: Mikalya
Uhm, you do realize that electricity is generated with STEAM, right?
Not all of it. Hydroelectric plants, wind turbines, solar panels, thermal elements, hydrogen batteries, you name it. Steam era's coming to an end. No reason to cling on it. Originally by: Mikalya
Just like war. You really think that you could even make money on a POS without war losses driving your profits?
Naturally. Constant 0.0 clashes, lowsec overkill - more than enough to create a constant demand for hisec production lines. Originally by: Mikalya
But your example falls apart since your alliance is almost 15 TIMES the size of your examples.
Meh. As if I command that alliance. As if alliances are not temporary and are not breaking apart on the first signs of real trouble. Therefore, alliances are irrelevant to my examples. Originally by: Mikalya
You still haven't answered my question though. With less than 200 players (we kicked inactive accounts), we are wardeccing alliances that have thousands of members, and are at war with 35 thousand targets right now. All of them self-proclaimed PvP corporations or 0.0 land owners. Based on your sliding scale we should get a BREAK as we are definately the underdogs.
Yes. So I take the liberty of not believing you. No, don't get me wrong, I don't say you lie about the number of your targets or your numbers. But I think you're not telling me something, like, probably, about being all mobile, hiding in stations, getting out just for short hit-n-run attacks. I perfectly know a guerilla team can harass a whole army, but harassment can't protect a POS, or a mining operation. Originally by: Mikalya
Or what about my alt
<skipped>
Some of us returned 3 years later to revenge our previous compatriots against THAT individual.
I'm glad for you. You have some "us" that would stick out their necks for you. My congratulations. Originally by: Mikalya
Again, very small number of us (6) against 50 active. Again we tore them apart. Again, directly because what they did to us.
They must've been grossly incompetent to lose at these odds. But alright. I've never argued about small all-combat corps being able to hit larger ones - it's naturally possible due to organization issues. What about small industrial corps? What can they do? Trust the mercs and play the lottery? Or stop being industrial and discard that part of the whole game for pewpew? Originally by: Mikalya
Quit being the victim and learn to fight.
If I'd want to fight, I'd go team fortress 2 or battlefield 2, thank you. If I'd want to dogpile, I'd go on raids in other mmos. You're offering me a perfect example of how current wardec system hurts the playstyle. You can be either combatant or dead, nothing in-between. That's why I think this change is needed - this way, any corp will have to choose its targets wisely, and never wage war on several fronts. Originally by: Mikalya
I still think that if you are constantly having issues most likely you píssed someone off in the past and this is the price for it.
How could I do it without even knowing it? I don't chat in local or other channels, I don't pvp, I politely ask if I could mine along if I see another miner in the belt, and I leave if they say no. Originally by: Mikalya
As far as your comments on mercs, you are so full of it "Nothing to keep them from taking my money", how about "If we fail at a contract we don't get any more".
Simple. Two things. First: in this business, demand is staggeringly higher than supply, which means you'll have tens of bils per corp member and happily leave the business before you'll get a "don't try them" reputation. Second: merc corps are usually hired by other corps. I mean big ones, not consisting of two mining and ten planet operations. And these contracts almost never involve protection. |
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