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blankseplocked Role of dreadnoughts and how it can help to sort lag in future.
 
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Cyaron wars
Fallen Angel's
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.01.18 09:40:00 - [1]
 

In modern eve I don't see any use of dreadnoughts. They became useless due to their inability to counter pretty much anything except carriers, they are unable to kill mothership having huge DPS but lack of tanking capabilities. Unable to kill moving battleship etc. Right now biggest part of supercaps are owned by big coalitions like NC, IT, DRF etc. Other small alliances are unable to fight those just because they cannot counter supercap fleet without having bigger superap fleet. this makes that small alliances to join big coalition. Bigger coalition is - bigger blob it gets- bigger blob is - lagfest becomes harder to manage. In modern eve motherships are dominating, they became more powerfull then titans now. I read CSM suggestion to nerf motherships, but tbh it's kinda lame. Instead of nerfing motherships I would boost dreads so they would be able to counter supers with their insane DPS. One of the ways to fix this is to allow remote reps and energy transfer on sieged dreadnaught. this will allow small alliances to have their own capital fleets to deffend themselves from agression from bigger alliances and their supercapital fleets. Basicly it'll give dreadnoughts a send chance, coz right now nobody even wants to train for those.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.18 11:00:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Cyaron wars
this will allow small alliances to have their own capital fleets to deffend themselves from agression from bigger alliances and their supercapital fleets.


The NC put over 200 dreadnoughts and carriers on the field in Y-W, just to kill 6 PL Titans. This was an on-the-fly counter hotdrop, not a preplanned operation. They had enough RR on the field that they pulled one of their own titans back from the brink of destruction, against the DPS of 50+ PL supercarriers.

tl;dr Your idea won't make it any easier for small alliances to hold space, just move the goalposts from supercarriers to dreads.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.01.18 11:28:00 - [3]
 

Dread is close to the DPS of a supercarrier, a small fraction of the price, insurable and can shoot pos.

There are plenty in use by the lower minions of nullsec alliances. Just all the big boys use the moon goo for supercarriers.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.18 11:30:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 18/01/2011 11:31:29
Edited by: Target Painter on 18/01/2011 11:30:47
Originally by: TimMc
There are plenty in use by the lower minions of nullsec alliances. Just all the big boys use the moon goo for supercarriers.


Large alliances still have plenty of dreads. Nothing else can take down medium and large POSes fast enough (excepting titans). And when I was last in sov 0.0, the majority of dreads were personally-owned, since they aren't expensive. Unlike supercarriers which can get a bit pricey.

Cyaron wars
Fallen Angel's
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.01.18 12:47:00 - [5]
 

All I want to get is something to counter supercaps without any nerf. Everything in this game has something to counter with, like: u use armor hacs to counter BS fleets/ u use BS to counter dreads for example. Now to counter supers u need more supers. that was the point :)

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.18 13:46:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Cyaron wars
All I want to get is something to counter supercaps without any nerf.


That's not what you said in your opening post.

Quote:
Right now biggest part of supercaps are owned by big coalitions like NC, IT, DRF etc. Other small alliances are unable to fight those just because they cannot counter supercap fleet without having bigger superap fleet. this makes that small alliances to join big coalition. Bigger coalition is - bigger blob it gets- bigger blob is - lagfest becomes harder to manage.


You want a dread buff to somehow address metagaming issues. It won't. Because it's human nature for things to eventually settledown into a handful of powerblocs. The "Wild" West didn't stay wild for very long.

Quote:
Everything in this game has something to counter with, like: u use armor hacs to counter BS fleets/ u use BS to counter dreads for example. Now to counter supers u need more supers. that was the point :)


It's worth noting we got the current supercarrier paradigm to address the issue of "Capitals Online" i.e. the only real counter to a capital fleet was a larger capital fleet of your own. So we received anti-capital supercarriers.

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.01.18 14:45:00 - [7]
 

Stop wishing things to always work in your favor. Make use of what you have. Dreads are useful in their own way which i think have all been highlighted in this thread. You want dreads to counter supers. What would the super carrier be used for when you have the isk and skills for one and it's useless compared to your dread? If you don't like supercaps being much stronger than dreads. I suggest you train up for them and find a way to finance it. Some things in the game just have to be the way they are. I mean, it'll be pretty much useless to train up for a BS or even a cruiser if i can run lvl4s or whs in a frig.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.01.18 14:54:00 - [8]
 

I think reducing of their siege cycle time would slightly boost dreadnoughts. Balancing dreads is a rope walk because too much boost would turn them into wtfpwn-machines.

In combination with that, a slight nerf of supercarriers would possibly help. Currently, supercarriers are used as ramming bock against any kind of structures except of towers. If their ability of doing that ****ing lot of damage to structures could be reduced, this would shift the balance a bit more towards dreadnoughts.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.01.18 15:05:00 - [9]
 

I have been playing MMOs since the mid-late 90s. Probably played nearly 2 dozen MMO only( as in no single player) games. The issue you are describing like many of the player based issues in eve are common between all of them. It is even common in the real world. The countries with the best gear are all typically allies or pretty friendly towards each other effectively making a powerbloc. It is hard to fix human nature.

That said dreads and carriers are not by any means useless. They are more expendable now that they were 2-3 years ago. A lot of people own them. Hell i build my own carriers and dreads out of junk loot. You can do some dedicated ratting in a good null system for a week or so and buy one. As alts get older more and more people will own them. Many super pilots own their own supers now. Alliances still build supers but more and more pilots are dropping isk on their own to own them.

It is always going to be a game of numbers. It either has to be a game of numbers or their has to be to be an "i win" button. Dreads are not really that useful against supers. They have terribad dps for their size and cost outside of siege. A combat fit revelation with 3 sinks and beams only gets 516 dps @ 50km and that is with perfect skills i can get over 700 dps at that range on baddon and it cost 10 times less. In siege mode it is a sitting duck.

You could improve it by adding an assault module. Which would replace the siege module( so you fit either/or)


Assault Module:
* 600 second duration
* Cannot warp or jump (sub warp speed is unaffected)
* Consumes 100 isotopes per cycle.
* + 300% to damage
* 100% bonus to amount repped of local reppers( No duration bonus)
* 75% penalty to being remote repped and remote energy transfer
* 50% Bonus to base drone damage
* 25% penalty to scan res.
* 25% bonus to weapon range.

Also tracking and explosion velocity mods so hitting anything smaller than a carrier moving at base speed is a lucky shot at best.

Thus assault mode would make dreads better at killing other caps and while they still have some ability to be spider tanked it would take 4 carriers to do the work of one. This would help keep them from being vulnerable and still put out better dps against caps. But doesnt make them invulnerable through spider tanking.


raukosen
Posted - 2011.01.18 15:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Target Painter

The NC put over 200 dreadnoughts and carriers on the field in Y-W, just to kill 6 PL Titans. This was an on-the-fly counter hotdrop, not a preplanned operation. They had enough RR on the field that they pulled one of their own titans back from the brink of destruction, against the DPS of 50+ PL supercarriers.


Bull****.
It happened during a massive capital OP that had been announced days in advance. The hotdrop wasn't planned, of course, but the fleet was already assembled and on its way back when the opportunity for a trap arose.

Altaica Amur
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:19:00 - [11]
 

Quote:
Assault Module:
* 600 second duration



That's why this won't benefit smaller operations who will need to gtfo if a supercap swarm is inbound. You might be able to make this work as long as you can warp or at least have some meaningful degree of mobility. For larger operations being able to RR them will bring them back at least, so that's something, sucks to be Caldari again/more though. If not changing the mobility perhaps cutting the duration down to 300 or maybe 180 seconds would be good.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:24:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: raukosen
The hotdrop wasn't planned, of course, but the fleet was already assembled and on its way back when the opportunity for a trap arose.


Originally by: Target Painter
This was an on-the-fly counter hotdrop,


Originally by: Target Painter
on-the-fly counter hotdrop


Originally by: Target Painter
on-the-fly

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:30:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: raukosen
The hotdrop wasn't planned, of course, but the fleet was already assembled and on its way back when the opportunity for a trap arose.


Originally by: Target Painter
This was an on-the-fly counter hotdrop,


Originally by: Target Painter
on-the-fly counter hotdrop


Originally by: Target Painter
on-the-fly



When I read your post, I read it as "we were just sitting around with our fingers up our arse and pulled 200 dreads out of thin air". His post was enlightening in that told us you had already assembled your cap fleet.

-Liang

Shaitis
Caldari
Fallen Angel's
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:35:00 - [14]
 

There is easy and short path to own supercarrier quick and painless.
Take your 15-17 personal own dreads and die 15-17 times, profit and buy SC.Shocked

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:58:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 18/01/2011 20:03:55
Edited by: Target Painter on 18/01/2011 19:58:25
Originally by: Liang Nuren
When I read your post, I read it as "we were just sitting around with our fingers up our arse and pulled 200 dreads out of thin air". His post was enlightening in that told us you had already assembled your cap fleet.

-Liang


Heh, I wasn't there, I was actually chatting with a a buddy who was up north when suddenly, "Uh... I gotta go."

The picture he painted was that the majority of the dreads that jumped in Y-W weren't actually a part of the original operation and got batphoned in when it was clear that they had made the tackle.

As for the topic at hand, perhaps tying fighterbomber deployment to a siege-like module, forcing them to commit to field to apply their outrageous DPS, would be advantageous. Even better if it was tied into the logoff-timer so that you would first come out of deployment mode, then your logoff timer would begin.

Karl Luckner
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.18 21:54:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Karl Luckner on 18/01/2011 21:54:23
Al that is needed to bring back dreads is to reduce their siege cycle by a healthy amount. (+ adjustement of fuel consumption per cycle)

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.01.18 22:18:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Karl Luckner
Edited by: Karl Luckner on 18/01/2011 21:54:23
Al that is needed to bring back dreads is to reduce their siege cycle by a healthy amount. (+ adjustement of fuel consumption per cycle)


This.

That said, Dreads still are very important for any 0.0 alliance


 

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