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C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.15 14:15:00 - [1]
 

The final meeting minutes of the CSM December Summit are now available which looks at Incarna game play and vision, account security and much more. Read the full blog here.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.01.15 14:25:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 15/01/2011 14:32:07
*sigh* Very disappointed at CCP's heavy-handed (and in my and some other CSM delegates' opinion unnecessary) use of NDA to cut a substantial writeup of three hours of discussion about Incarna down to a grand total of 381 words.

Confused

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2011.01.15 14:26:00 - [3]
 

ugh

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.15 14:28:00 - [4]
 

I deliberately didn't snipe first post, and what do I get for it? Denied my IBC!

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2011.01.15 14:41:00 - [5]
 

"Greyscale feels that reduction in mobility will decrease need for big coalitions, because huge coalition blobs won't be able to move as fast; result should be smaller local wars."

YES! Finally! This crap where I have to worry about someone's ally that is OVER 40 JUMPS AWAY is a crappy crappy mechanic.

Secondly, there is a VERY easy way to make low sec more popular.

0.0 has better resources but worse facilities because they are not empire driven.

Low Sec has decent resources but the best facilities because they are unrestricted and run by empires.

Empire has the worst resources and ok facilities because of taxes and such in high security space. (You are paying for security after all)

Eh?

DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.01.15 14:58:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: DeftCrow Redriver on 15/01/2011 14:58:24
Quote:
It was mentioned that CCP has hired an effects artist (a specialist), who starts in a month. So old effects will be iterated - cyno effects and trails will be high on the list.


Woohoo!

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.01.15 15:09:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: BeanBagKing on 15/01/2011 15:47:17
Quote:
Their current backlog has been drawn from CSM crowdsourcing lists, forum threads, and internal backlogs.

Arnar commented that this was done because “it makes too much ****ing sense”


BEST MINUTES EVER! Thanks to that quote. Even with the dissapointing amount of "Because of NDA" edits Sad

Edit #1
Quote:
However, one CSM suggested, with respect to the nerfing of jump bridges, “get rid of them.” Greyscale: “Anyone disagree with that?” CSM response varied between “Nope,” “Nah” and a simple “No”.


But.. but.. I hate gates... :( Not to mention that they not only make the lives of players easier, yes, but they also provide a lot of strategic value when it comes to the good fights that CCP/CSM wants. Jump bridges allow the controlling alliance to cut off conventional blobs that strike an area. Removing them will probably remove the ability to intercept those blobs.

Edit #2
Quote:
CSM concerns: Any disruption must involve activity (AFK cloaking is lame).


As long as CSM is also admitting it, can we get it (AFK cloaking) on board as a discussion point for the next meeting? Even if CCP/CSM agrees not to change anything, I'd like to see their opinions on the issue rather than the usually back and forth trolling each side does in Features and Ideas once a week.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2011.01.15 15:25:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Jason Edwards on 15/01/2011 17:09:42
I love the sized cynos idea.

Battleships/recons only able to fit cynos that can bring it regular caps. You then need regular cap to pop scap cyno.

Titan bridges requiring scap cyno.

This means right now you can have cloaky bomber roll in with regular cyno. Pop anywhere and suddenly whole subcapfleet in system. It's near impossible to stop that from happening.

New way would require getting a battleship into system and not dying to gatecamp. While that gatecamp is at their optimals. Then getting carrier to that cyno to allow titan bridging in.

OR

Use bomber still. cov-op cyno bring in black op. Light cap cyno for carrier from blackop. Carrier cyno to bring in titan bridge. It makes the titan bridge much less offensive. Whereas you can have cyno gens and such still to move strategically.



Jumpbridge removal also a hugely good thing.


Now getting more people to 0.0 isnt a matter of nerfing highsec things. It's a matter of making it easy for them to go there and utilize the space. I suggest an ORE ship which isnt quite big enough to be a capship so it can use gates or jumpdrive whose role is mining moon minerals. Whose cycle is say 10 minutes like icemining but is sieged there unable to move. Would bring moon values right the hell down. Bring value to the members and not alliances.

Now if I'm a fairly big newb to the game. I can fly t1 bs or smaller. I want to do pve in 0.0. I pretty much need a drake/cane or t1 bs to manage it. Except buying one out there is very hard. So you need to get one out there. Getting your ship out there as a vet is somewhat easy now... imagine without jumpbridges and such. Screw that. Want more manufacturing to happen in 0.0? Change the time bonus to a mineral bonus. Suddenly tons of manufacturing in 0.0 stations. Then just maybe it would be great. It'd get people to mine for minerals out there; get them to build. It'd be overall good.

ALSO

Bigger brother to the stealth bomber. Fires compact citadels. Insanely speed up killing pos modules and sov ****; also means caps themselves die horribly. Though would be useless when subcaps fall on your fleet.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.01.15 15:41:00 - [9]
 

"The CSM provided strong feedback, and expressed significant concerns, to CCP about the Incarna
features and development plans that were disclosed to them"

This does not sound good.

C.


Mimiru Minahiro
Posted - 2011.01.15 15:44:00 - [10]
 

Quote:

What is becoming clear however is that the changes might have been popular at the time, but are now a source of rather widespread discussion about whether or not the Super Carriers are overpowered..... Maybe CCP should have stood firm against the players and forced the changes through? Perhaps players should have taken a step back and evaluated the whole thing on a larger timescale?


This had to quoted. Whatever CCP employee had the hutzpah to suggest that player ideas, regardless of how many "likes" they recieve, are not always well thought out deserves a raise!!!

I for one would be more than happy to see CCP say "Tough *******." much more frequently (and publicly)

Erdiere
Minmatar
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2011.01.15 15:45:00 - [11]
 

'Greyscale warns, however, that during the transition period “everything will go to ****.”'

That line has a potential to become a new CCP motto, "Everything will go to ****."

Mimiru Minahiro
Posted - 2011.01.15 15:46:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Erdiere
'Greyscale warns, however, that during the transition period “everything will go to ****.”'

That line has a potential to become a new CCP motto, "Everything will go to ****."


It's already CSM approved!

I sense an action-item being a created....

Astomichi
Posted - 2011.01.15 15:49:00 - [13]
 

Quote:

Discussion then turned to the issue of botting and RMT, and what could be done to reduce their impact
on the game. As this discussion involved potential countermeasures, it is sealed under NDA.



So much for the only potentially important part of the whole thing...

Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.01.15 16:06:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
Edited by: Mynxee on 15/01/2011 14:32:07
*sigh* Very disappointed at CCP's heavy-handed (and in my and some other CSM delegates' opinion unnecessary) use of NDA to cut a substantial writeup of three hours of discussion about Incarna down to a grand total of 381 words.

Confused

My looking forward to Incarna is confined to two things; "meh", and "maybe they can get around to eve stuff now." CCP have done an amazingly poor job of communicating why I should be excited about Incarna.

I'm beginning to feel that the reason for that is that it's simply much ado about nothing.

This is also an issue with most anything CCP insists on NDA'ing. Exploits and botting and what have you. I get that there're things CCP wants to keep under wraps, but they cannot both have their cake and eat it. Support is built through communication.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.01.15 16:22:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 15/01/2011 16:23:38
Summing up the third part here:

A third of it is nda'd. May as well not even exist and could of been thrown out entirely. I'm quite disappointed in the lack of news about incarna.

CCP/CSM may as well not of bothered with this third part. Whats left could of been put into the second part.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.15 16:41:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 15/01/2011 16:48:59
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 15/01/2011 16:43:42
Quote:
the CSM and Arnar agreed that publication of a long-range Incarna road-map should be a key part of Incarna messaging
Um no we already got the message

Loude And Clear.

the message is "we dont realy know why we are doing anything we are doing anymore because we keep starting things then droping what we are doing and running off to do something else because we got bored, and frankly its to the point that we honestly are not sure what we were thinking when we started whatever it was we are talking about because Quite honestly we did not know back then either.

Quote:
Arnar noted that of all the EVE game-play teams, half are working on Incarna and half on in-space features.
And given the less than half baked nature of the ingame features since you guys have started working on incarna some 4 odd years ago when you first announced and demoed it... we can only assume that it will be just as half baked as virtualy everthing you have done since then as well (Faction war, PI, Dust, the Improved sov system)

Milo Caman
Gallente
Anshar Incorporated
Posted - 2011.01.15 16:57:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
It was mentioned that CCP has hired an effects artist (a specialist), who starts in a month. So old effects will be iterated - cyno effects and trails will be high on the list.


F*ck Yes Very Happy

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.15 17:05:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 15/01/2011 16:48:59
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 15/01/2011 16:43:42
Quote:
the CSM and Arnar agreed that publication of a long-range Incarna road-map should be a key part of Incarna messaging
Um no we already got the message

Loude And Clear.

the message is "we dont realy know why we are doing anything we are doing anymore because we keep starting things then droping what we are doing and running off to do something else because we got bored, and frankly its to the point that we honestly are not sure what we were thinking when we started whatever it was we are talking about because Quite honestly we did not know back then either.

Quote:
Arnar noted that of all the EVE game-play teams, half are working on Incarna and half on in-space features.
And given the less than half baked nature of the ingame features since you guys have started working on incarna some 4 odd years ago when you first announced and demoed it... we can only assume that it will be just as half baked as virtualy everthing you have done since then as well (Faction war, PI, Dust, the Improved sov system)


Close. I'd say it's closer to "We don't really know where we're going with this product, but it's going to be totally awesome! See how awesome it is?" The CSM didn't buy into the awesome though, and CCP slapped an NDA on the ensuing discussion. It's pretty obvious that the NDA is nothing more than a muzzle.

CCP Sreegs

Posted - 2011.01.15 17:17:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ravcharas


This is also an issue with most anything CCP insists on NDA'ing. Exploits and botting and what have you. I get that there're things CCP wants to keep under wraps, but they cannot both have their cake and eat it. Support is built through communication.


Just out of honest curiosity, what positive outcome do you think would come from detailing specific counter-hacking/botting methodologies? What would you gain from this knowledge personally? I understand that you WANT to know things, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how some knowledge being public information would be to anyone's benefit and I'd like to hear an alternative viewpoint.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.15 17:17:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Cailais
"The CSM provided strong feedback, and expressed significant concerns, to CCP about the Incarna
features and development plans that were disclosed to them"

This does not sound good.

Nothing about Incarna so far sounds good.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.01.15 17:32:00 - [21]
 

When is the subject of delayed local and new d-scanner mechanics going to be discussed between CSM and CCP?

Killerhound
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.15 17:36:00 - [22]
 

Interesting reading.

Still while reading especially about Incarna I get that feeling as if you are watching an american version of a sitcom about sex. All you get to hear is *peep*, while *peep*, and the conclusion is *peep*.

All that I get from that text is a bigger envy to see behind the details of Incarna and how all those new mechanics will interact with my beloved EVE.


Tuon Peandrag
Posted - 2011.01.15 17:43:00 - [23]
 

I like jump bridges. Removing them will not decrease the size of alliances.

Jehanne D'ark
Minmatar
Ghost Tribal Credit Union
Sspectre
Posted - 2011.01.15 17:50:00 - [24]
 

“love to have jump-drive spoolup; you have to lock the cyno up and the lock time is proportional to the distance.” A suggestion
from the CSM was for different cyno generator sizes. So you'd need a battleship or carrier cyno to drop a supercap.

I agree, except that it should not affect covert cynos, covert jump bridges, or covert jump drives in my opinion.

Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.01.15 17:56:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Ravcharas


This is also an issue with most anything CCP insists on NDA'ing. Exploits and botting and what have you. I get that there're things CCP wants to keep under wraps, but they cannot both have their cake and eat it. Support is built through communication.


Just out of honest curiosity, what positive outcome do you think would come from detailing specific counter-hacking/botting methodologies? What would you gain from this knowledge personally? I understand that you WANT to know things, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how some knowledge being public information would be to anyone's benefit and I'd like to hear an alternative viewpoint.


I'm not saying the players need to now specific counter-hacking/botting methodologies. What I'm saying is that maybe you guys have erred on the safe side a little too often, especially concerning Incarna. Which is totally understandable, by the way, but no less annoying to see.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2011.01.15 18:47:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CSM Minutes
But how to deal with this problem? Greyscale suggestion that he would “love to have jump-drive spoolup; you have to lock the cyno up and the lock time is proportional to the distance.” A suggestion from the CSM was for different cyno generator sizes. So you'd need a battleship or carrier cyno to drop a supercap.


I'd add some fuzzification factor to the cyno jump tactical scene.
Namely the accuracy of the cyno jump.

From this you can branch into a number of options like :
- cyno spool up time for maximum accuracy
- some sort of bubble field that disrupts cyno accuracy
- .... bla bla bla.

Shepard Book
Posted - 2011.01.15 18:53:00 - [27]
 

Removing jumpbridges and creating more remote 0.0 entrances is an interesting idea. I hope jump freighters get a jump range increase and carriers get a hanger size increase if this happens.

I am surprised nothing was said about black ops after such a high ranking from the vote that the CSM asked for.

Super carriers getting a nerf would make a cry to be able to park them for sure.

I like the ideas of letting small fleets ( wing or smaller ) having a bigger impact. Anything new on removing local from 0.0?

CCP Sreegs

Posted - 2011.01.15 19:04:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ravcharas

I'm not saying the players need to now specific counter-hacking/botting methodologies. What I'm saying is that maybe you guys have erred on the safe side a little too often, especially concerning Incarna. Which is totally understandable, by the way, but no less annoying to see.


My apologies then I thought you were referring specifically to the security-type redaction. I'm not in the Incarna department so I'll toss you a hi five and ride off into the sunset.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.15 19:40:00 - [29]
 

NDA, NDA, NDA. But hey, that's fine, I'm capable of reading between the lines:
Quote:
The CSM provided strong feedback, and expressed significant concerns, to CCP about the Incarna features and development plans that were disclosed to them – and about items CCP was not yet prepared to discuss. This information, however, is sealed under NDA. Note: During the editing of these minutes, several CSM members protested against the removal of key discussion points from the write-ups for Incarna sessions.

The CSM strongly emphasized that Incarna should add to the EVE experience and become an integral part of EVE in its own right – EVE’s current gameplay should not be moved into Incarna and given a new user interface.
So, what is it? Discussions with agents being made more time consuming? Implants requiring the use of in-station medical facilities? Oh, the possibilities are endless.

Hey, CCP: Your players don't like surprises. This is mainly because they don't trust you to make those surprises pleasant ones. If you're not talking, people are going to assume you've got something to hide.

Nothing good will come of this.

Nice to hear about the engine trails, mind.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.01.15 19:44:00 - [30]
 

The longer you avoid telling the truth about Incarna, the bigger the smash is going to be when it hits.

Still, a bit of summer drama is always entertaining so what the hell. NDA all you like: we've already drawn our conclusions.


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