Posted - 2011.01.21 11:44:00 - [32]

 

Originally by: Arshes Nei

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I used CM to illustrate the effect defenders have on ships with a different amount of launchers, i thought that was obvious. Its why its called an example, it wouldn't have worked very well if i had used the tengu instead of the golem now would it? Also since it takes 3 defenders to take down one torp that would unnecessarily complicate matters, at we would have had a discussion wether that actually ever happens. And i believe you mean Beams not Arty, the paladin is the amarr Marauder and plenty people use tachs on it depending on mission.

isk needed to actually tank a CNR for the big lvl 4s.

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nah the arty paladin was a pretty good comparison to fitting cruise on a golem.

and a cnr can easily be tanked with straight up t2 mods.

Posted - 2011.01.21 12:27:00 - [34]

 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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Originally by: Arshes Nei

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I used CM to illustrate the effect defenders have on ships with a different amount of launchers, i thought that was obvious. Its why its called an example, it wouldn't have worked very well if i had used the tengu instead of the golem now would it? Also since it takes 3 defenders to take down one torp that would unnecessarily complicate matters, at we would have had a discussion wether that actually ever happens. And i believe you mean Beams not Arty, the paladin is the amarr Marauder and plenty people use tachs on it depending on mission.

isk needed to actually tank a CNR for the big lvl 4s.

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nah the arty paladin was a pretty good comparison to fitting cruise on a golem.

and a cnr can easily be tanked with straight up t2 mods.

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Yes because fitting 4 effective turrets on a ship can be compared to 8 effective launchers, wait what? Protip, its a 100% large energy weapon bonus on the paladin. If you pretend 4 unbonused arties are in any way comparable to 8 effective CMs your pulling my leg. Bottomline is that there are imho good reasons to fit CMs to a golem, like doing the first stage in a WC.

And i would like to see your T2 fit CNR that can handle WC or smash the supplier, kidding aside i might have some serious flaw in my tank because i have trouble with those.

Posted - 2011.01.21 12:43:00 - [36]

 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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and if your goal is mission running and you ended up in a vaga... well oops!

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Oh shush. The Vaga is plenty fun to fly in Sansha missions…

Posted - 2011.01.21 13:12:00 - [38]

 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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Originally by: Arshes Nei

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Yes because fitting 4 effective turrets on a ship can be compared to 8 effective launchers, wait what? Protip, its a 100% large energy weapon bonus on the paladin. If you pretend 4 unbonused arties are in any way comparable to 8 effective CMs your pulling my leg. Bottomline is that there are imho good reasons to fit CMs to a golem, like doing the first stage in a WC.

And i would like to see your T2 fit CNR that can handle WC or smash the supplier, kidding aside i might have some serious flaw in my tank because i have trouble with those.

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protip the golem should use cruise missiles just as often as a paladin uses artys. if you ever fit cm on a golem you would have been better off in another ship.

as for the fit, the raven a la liang, aka the fit that gets pasted in pretty much every cnr thread out there, with attention to cost a LSBII or a meta4 xl will work, most people just throw a faction one on because it fits and people like faction, my cnr has a DG LSB because I had a few laying around, but a t2 one works fine. although I'd modify the fit for smash the supplier, throw on a mwd (cuz now you can \o/) and kite the **** outta that mission.

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And all this argument just because i used the golem to explain WHY it is a bad idea to fit CM on it ... You know this is going in a circle, go a bit further and your back at my original point of how a golem with CM would loose more damage to defenders than any other missile boat, and how it only has the effective launchers of a SNI(which has the effective launchers of a Raven).

It still has nothing to do with the paladin or arties because the reasons for not fitting CMs on a golem have nothing to do with the reasons for not fitting arties on a paladin. I see a lot of people using CMs on golems, so we need to talk about that. I do not see a lot of people fitting arties to their paladin, why do you bring it even up?

Posted - 2011.01.21 13:55:00 - [40]

 

Edited by: Tippia on 21/01/2011 13:55:53

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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anyways defenders are chanced based and will take out the same percentage of dps in the long run. although that is without grouping, with grouping I don't really know how it works. I just kinda press f4 whenever a target dies these days.

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With grouping, you lose less long-term DPS the more launchers you have grouped.

The chance for a defender is still the same, but it is only triggered once for your "combo-grouped uni-super-missile" and it is only strong enough to knock out the equivalent of one of those grouped missiles. So if you launch 8 grouped missiles against a 25% defender chance, you only lose ~3% of your DPS (25% chance to lose 1/8th of your launch), compared to if you launched them individually, in which case your DPS loss over time would be 25%.

…but all of that's just the basics before we get into the whole issue of (normally) defender-proof torps and tripple-damage defenders.

Posted - 2011.01.21 16:40:00 - [42]

 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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Originally by: Janith Arakz

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Originally by: Zuper Zpy

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I wouldn't advise concentating on a Golem, a CNR or a Tengu. So many noobs get into these ships far too early, as I did. Without the support skills they are all at best useless. If you are wanting to make Isk from mission running then find a good Drake fit and train the skills you need to fly that well. You will find that most of these skills are advantageous to those ships you mentioned that you are wanting to fly. When cruise and torp specialisation are at 4 and most of the other missile skills are 5 then you can think about parading around in a fancy BS.

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This. So very much this. I rushed to BS and that did not work out well. So I went back to cruisers, battlecruisers (Drakes can easily do level 3s and the shorter easier level 4s) , HACs (you can run level 4s in a vaga -heresy- if you're desperate).

It took me about 3-4 months to train to use the Loki correctly itself, now it can run level 4s with it's eyes closed (a bit on the slow side though). You want to work your way through the levels of ships, making sure you can use them well otherwise it will all end in an expensive ball of fire.

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wow that sounds like some seriously bad skilling. of course one shouldn't just rush to sit in the ship, but getting most of the support skills to 4 and you are way ahead of where I was when I started doing missions.

and if your goal is mission running and you ended up in a vaga... well oops!

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As a noob you dont realise how cruel CCP can be. You can get the skills to fly a BS in just a few short weeks. You can train untill you can fit torps and after all that wait you realise that you dont have the grid or the cpu to fit it right. Then when someone sends you a fit you fall on the floor cos that fit is about a year away. Meanwhile you could have trained the Drake along with a few social skills and been making 6 mills an hour in high sec.

I regret that last sentence already. I think I just opened a door for all these guys that recon they can make 60 mills an hour running 3's in highsec. ;P