| Author |
Topic |
Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire |
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:47:00 - [ 1]
This is more fishing for a dev response, or anyone whose knowledgeable about how Eve's tech side works.
WoW has over 8 million players easily, but of course they have hundreds of servers. Lets assume that Incarna is a wild success (Lets say WoW level success for the sake of argument). Can our cluster of servers handle it? Is population a problem you guys can handle just by throwing more money at it?What is the limit of a single shard universe?
What about from the gameplay side? how many people is the game designed to actually hold before its actually just too overcrowded and creating separate universes becomes a real option?
This is in no way an Eve vs WoW post or something that stupid, I feel its a valid question from someone who doesn't know how the system works exactly. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:49:00 - [ 2]
OVER 9000! |
Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io |
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:53:00 - [ 3]
As technology progresses. So does EvEs capabilities.
How many also depends on where and what people do. If people spread out more I guess you could easily have 100000 online. |
Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire |
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:56:00 - [ 4]
 Originally by: Shintai
As technology progresses. So does EvEs capabilities.
How many also depends on where and what people do. If people spread out more I guess you could easily have 100000 online.
I really don't believe people are just going to "spread out" to save the server some stress though, I think the 2000+ man fleet battles are a testament to that. |
Bibbleibble |
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:01:00 - [ 5]
Think of it this way;
The Jita Node can support 1200 people.
There are over 7500 systems, but I don't know exactly how many, so lets say there are 7500 for argument's sake.
Therefore, presuming that CCP buys top level hardware for every system, EVE can handle 9,000,000 players concurrently without totally breaking presuming that they are equally spread out doing nothing.
However, I think that a more reasonable estimate would be a maximum of about 3,000,000 players because the unequal distribution of players, and the CPU intenstive nature of the most common activity in game (shooting stuff) would cut that down a lot.
|
Meeogi
Amarr
Lone Star Privateers |
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:05:00 - [ 6]
I don't think anyone really has a clue. A game like eve is on a permanent test / trial and error status. |
Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
|
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:05:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Shintai
As technology progresses. So does EvEs capabilities.
How many also depends on where and what people do. If people spread out more I guess you could easily have 100000 online.
I really don't believe people are just going to "spread out" to save the server some stress though, I think the 2000+ man fleet battles are a testament to that.
Actually, the 2000+ man fleets mean just the opposite. As the server's capacity increases, the size of our fleets ALSO increase. When the server's capacity decreases, so too does the size of our fleets (and also the number of fleet fights too). The question you want to ask is if the improvements in server lag has also seen a corresponding increase in Motsu/dodixie population levels. |
Lazarann
Ideal Machine
|
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:27:00 - [ 8]
Edited by: Lazarann on 11/01/2011 23:28:30 Originally by: Bibbleibble
Think of it this way;
The Jita Node can support 1200 people.
There are over 7500 systems, but I don't know exactly how many, so lets say there are 7500 for argument's sake.
Therefore, presuming that CCP buys top level hardware for every system, EVE can handle 9,000,000 players concurrently without totally breaking presuming that they are equally spread out doing nothing.
However, I think that a more reasonable estimate would be a maximum of about 3,000,000 players because the unequal distribution of players, and the CPU intenstive nature of the most common activity in game (shooting stuff) would cut that down a lot.
A dev recently stated that Jita is on better/newer hardware than the other nodes, not to mention Jita is one system on its own node. All the rest (unless they're reinforced for a fleet fight) are sharing nodes, so your math doesn't really work. Edit: spelling |
Infected Cure
Caldari
Bank Of America
|
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:33:00 - [ 9]
There are really only about 12 to 15 people who play eve, the rest are just alts.
Each solar system is a 'computer core' so the real question is how many ppl can fit in a solar system X number of systems = max # of users.
|
Forum Guy |
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:42:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Meeogi
I don't think anyone really has a clue. A game like eve is on a permanent test / trial and error status.
I think this is more likely. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:44:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Lets assume that Incarna is a wild success. Can our cluster of servers handle it? Is population a problem you guys can handle just by throwing more money at it?What is the limit of a single shard universe?
Incarna nodes are allegedly separate from "regular EVE" nodes, so heavy-duty population for people "inside stations" will not be affecting "in space" people (much). As for the limitations... well, CCP can keep upgrading the hardware as needed, get even beefier systems for heavy load nodes, and hopefully manage to transition to the much-talked-about Infiniband architecture (if they haven't put that on the really slow backburner) which would allow multiple physical CPU cores to handle a single system while also scaling relatively well, in which case, it becomes much more of a matter of how many physical blades can they add to their cluster, or how much can they afford to keep spending on hardware to keep up. Quote:
What about from the gameplay side? how many people is the game designed to actually hold before its actually just too overcrowded and creating separate universes becomes a real option?
There are very few things that don't scale well when the server population increases, the most obvious one right now being moon mineral production, but that can also be addressed by introducing alternative sources for them before they skyrocket to ludicrous price levels. Theoretically you can make gameplay scale up rather well for as many people as would like to play, but it won't happen overnight. Then again, EVE is an ever-evolving system, so nothing new has been said. |
Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P.
Eternal Evocations |
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:51:00 - [ 12]
Would be cool if they could try this out with the thin client. Perhaps get supercomputer status? |
Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:54:00 - [ 13]
Eve could handle alot more players, the problem is stopping them all cramming into the same place at the same time i.e. mission hubs, trade hubs (esp jita) and 0.0 sov fights. Eve could probably quite easily handle 50 people per system across the whole universe, the problem is keeping them that spread out. If the population was to double and the spread remain the same it would be disasterous (3k in Jita constantly, 0.0 sov fights with 4k in system). |
Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:56:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
What about from the gameplay side? how many people is the game designed to actually hold before its actually just too overcrowded and creating separate universes becomes a real option?
There are very few things that don't scale well when the server population increases, the most obvious one right now being moon mineral production, but that can also be addressed by introducing alternative sources for them before they skyrocket to ludicrous price levels.
Also none of these things require a separate universe, you simply add more systems to the current one (again) or add more resources to whats already there (a mechanic for hi sec moon mining for example, and moon mining in wormholes). |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2011.01.12 00:03:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Doddy
Eve could handle alot more players, the problem is stopping them all cramming into the same place at the same time i.e. mission hubs, trade hubs (esp jita) and 0.0 sov fights. Eve could probably quite easily handle 50 people per system across the whole universe, the problem is keeping them that spread out. If the population was to double and the spread remain the same it would be disasterous (3k in Jita constantly, 0.0 sov fights with 4k in system).
This is one of the reasons that CCP should do everything in their power to encourage people to go into wormholes. -Liang |
Sporked |
Posted - 2011.01.12 00:16:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
OVER 9000!
You know, 6 years ago we might have laughed at the thought of having over 9000 people online at Sunday primetime and called you crazy. Now we have twice that on Monday mornings just after DT. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 01:49:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Doddy
Eve could probably quite easily handle 50 people per system across the whole universe, the problem is keeping them that spread out.
It could most likely handle up to 1k average online (mostly 500-1500 spreads) at peak per system across the entire universe (so easily more than 10 million paying accounts) if they pile up enough hardware (and with that subscriber count, they could easily afford to), but like you just said, the problem is clustering. |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics |
Posted - 2011.01.12 02:24:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Doddy
Eve could probably quite easily handle 50 people per system across the whole universe, the problem is keeping them that spread out.
It could most likely handle up to 1k average online (mostly 500-1500 spreads) at peak per system across the entire universe (so easily more than 10 million paying accounts) if they pile up enough hardware (and with that subscriber count, they could easily afford to), but like you just said, the problem is clustering.
Well, not only player clustering; I would imagine there are some limitations on the total size of the server cluster in blades or CPUs, either from programming or technical hurdles. I mean, just imagine the database servers dealing with transactions from 10million people all at once  |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 02:26:00 - [ 19]
Google seems to handle it quite well, but then again, they have entire buildings full of servers  |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics |
Posted - 2011.01.12 02:46:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Akita T
Google seems to handle it quite well, but then again, they have entire buildings full of servers
eh, good point...although i dunno if running a giant singlesharded universe carries the same hurdles as indexing the entire internets I shudder to imagine how big a building the EVE server would need at ~10,000 nodes (7500 systems at one node/system plus proxies and various service nodes and databases), not to mention power and heat dissipation requirements... |
M3ph1sto |
Posted - 2011.01.12 02:56:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Akita T
Incarna nodes are allegedly separate from "regular EVE" nodes, so heavy-duty population for people "inside stations" will not be affecting "in space" people (much).As for the limitations... well, CCP can keep upgrading the hardware as needed, get even beefier systems for heavy load nodes, and hopefully manage to transition to the much-talked-about Infiniband architecture (if they haven't put that on the really slow backburner) which would allow multiple physical CPU cores to handle a single system while also scaling relatively well, in which case, it becomes much more of a matter of how many physical blades can they add to their cluster, or how much can they afford to keep spending on hardware to keep up.
This seems correct. Unlike WoW or any other MMO that has muliple servers, when you cross zones "systems" there is no loading, it happens in an instant. When you cross systems in EVE, there is a loading time. This changing over is what I believe can make EVE handle a grip of ppl in a station. If you dock, your loading the station on a different node (or so they will make it that way). So those in Jita 4-4 who are walking in station will load onto yet another node. With this theory I believe you could handle maybe 1000 ppl or more in a single station before the hampsters die. However I could be way out in left field and just talking out my ass.  |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 03:04:00 - [ 22]
Edited by: Akita T on 12/01/2011 03:18:36 Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
eh, good point...although i dunno if running a giant singlesharded universe carries the same hurdles as indexing the entire internets
I shudder to imagine how big a building the EVE server would need at ~10,000 nodes
Well, latest highball estimates place the number of blades under Google's control up to around one million units A "mere" 10k sounds quite pleasantly affordable in comparison, "only" about 1% of what Google operates with  http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2009/04/01/google-unveils-its-container-data-center/ Quote:
The Google facility features a “container hanger” filled with 45 containers, with some housed on a second-story balcony. Each shipping container can hold up to 1,160 servers, and uses 250 kilowatts of power, giving the container a power density of more than 780 watts per square foot. [...]
The data center facility, referred to as Data Center A, spans 75,000 square feet and has a power capacity of 10 megawatts. The facility has a Power Usage Effectiveness (PUE) of 1.25, and when the container load is measured across the entire hangar floor space, it equates to a density of 133 watts per square foot. Google didn’t identify the facility’s location, but the timeline suggests that it’s likely one of the facilites at Google’s three-building data center complex in The Dalles, Oregon.
So, you see, the entire computing needs of a heavily upscaled CCP server cluster could fit inside a fraction of just one (granted, one of the largest) of the many datacenters Google uses  P.S. Why am I suddenly getting a strange craving for a newsitem reading "Google acquires CCP Games" ? |
Orpheus Terminus |
Posted - 2011.01.12 03:33:00 - [ 23]
Erm, Iceland is 103000 square km. You could build 103000 1x1 km interconnected server cubes on top of the land. Although ovals would definitely fit better with the terrain. But that would make it harder for the indigenous tribes to build their huts on top.
I don't know let's say we could fit 250,000 people spread out right now and it takes up less than 15 yards cubed. 1093/15 = 72.86 x 250,000 = 18,216,666.66 then all of Iceland.. x103000 = 1,876,316,665,980
I don't know though I'm not good at maths |
CCP Yokai
 |
Posted - 2011.01.12 11:50:00 - [ 24]
Edited by: CCP Yokai on 12/01/2011 12:27:38
TL;DR
Current Proxy limits: 81,000 to 99,000 PCU
Current Sol limits: 323,600 PCU
Ideal Proxy limits: 192,000 PCU
Ideal Sol limits: 1,585,800 PCU
-----
NO NEW HARDWARE
-----
Proxy Limits:
27 proxies give us about 81,000 PCU on today's startup
6 spare proxies could be enabled on any startup taking us to 99,000 PCU
Solarsystem Limitations (assuming no proxy cap)
1600 players in a Jita type playstyle (docked and spinning ships)
200 (normal) sol nodes running (minus any service nodes) so that would put us at a max of 320,000 + 2 super nodes that can handle an additional 2000 each in Jita or more...
making the max on current hardware 324,000
----
NEW HARDWARE
----
Assuming we take proxies to 64 nodes (max math we have done to date... not to say it's impossible to do more... just what I think we can do.) We could easily get to 192,000 PCU
If you just want to look at max solarsystem numbers...
Each sol could handle 2000+ players
There are 7929 sol's (including Polaris, Jove, wormholes, and other spaces not accessable today to normal players)
1,585,800 max players... (before Incarna, it changes things a bit more)
Love
CCP Yokai
|
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten. |
Posted - 2011.01.12 11:51:00 - [ 25]
Originally by: CCP Yokai
Will post the actual numbers here...
BRB
*Taps fingers* |
Rellik B00n |
Posted - 2011.01.12 11:59:00 - [ 26]
eleventy |
CCP StevieSG
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 12:03:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
OVER 9000!
Okay I loled at this.. nooooooo  |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 12:17:00 - [ 28]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 12/01/2011 12:35:24 Originally by: Sader Rykane
*snip*
What about from the gameplay side? how many people is the game designed to actually hold before its actually just too overcrowded and creating separate universes becomes a real option?
Gameplay wise you run into big troubles, as the number of stations/planets/gates is static.. more players mean more station/gate-camping with bigger camps. Good luck going anywhere in low/nullsec with a very good chance to get killed. Content as mission deadspace is unlimited. Exploration content according to my knowledge too (sites spawn somewhere else as soon as despawned). Not limitless is moon-goo, but I bet 1bn isk we're just using 20-30% of the available resources there at the moment. TL;DR we got enough resources, but places of interaction are limited and cause the gameplay to stall (see low sec today) |
Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 12:45:00 - [ 29]
So what if there was a PCU explosion after an expansion and suddenly everyone from wow decided to play eve, what would CCP do? |
Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire |
Posted - 2011.01.12 12:49:00 - [ 30]
Originally by: Kalle Demos
So what if there was a PCU explosion after an expansion and suddenly everyone from wow decided to play eve, what would CCP do?
Actually if what I read was correct based on our current setup if everyone with currently active accounts decided to log in, not everyone would manage to get in. I'm assuming they would probably have to limit subscriptions while they bought more hardware? This is even before taking into account your question. |
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