| Author |
Topic |
Samican Nutikor |
Posted - 2011.01.26 18:13:00 - [ 301]
9 years of latin tells me:
bonus (m)
plural tense = boni
virus (m)
plural tense = viri (not "vira")
Reading sometimes makes my eyes bleed. |
Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising |
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:52:00 - [ 302]
Edited by: Grimpak on 27/01/2011 01:48:29Edited by: Grimpak on 26/01/2011 19:56:40 Originally by: Altaica Amur
Yeah I agree, though it will leave a situation that will require some additional adjustments to the caldari rail boats to make them preform with their short range weapon as well.
rails is a whole different boat altogether. if fixing blasters is hard because you need to actually delve in tanks and whatnot, rails are hard to fix because simply giving them more damage isn't the best solution (they are relatively well tracking-wise and as far as roles go, even considering that there's no real space in today's warfare, they are the weapons with the longest optimal). pumping more damage into them would make them too equal to lasers, altho maybe boosting their RoF, making them a low-damage rapid firing long range weapon would actually be an interesting combo. would require extensive testing, but it's the only way I see it sorta work. Originally by: Samican Nutikor
9 years of latin tells me:
bonus (m)
plural tense = boni
virus (m)
plural tense = viri (not "vira")
Reading sometimes makes my eyes bleed.
yes, but the word "boni" doesn't exist in english. also, some latin-based languages don't even differentiate the singular from plural, in the case of the word "bonus". |
Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now. |
Posted - 2011.01.26 20:19:00 - [ 303]
Also, where I live, Bona is a brand of baby food.  Bona & Piltti lasten ruuatSo it's bonuses not boni or bona which both sound incredibly stupid even if I'm not a native english speaker. and on topi: buff hybrids.   |
Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore |
Posted - 2011.01.26 21:59:00 - [ 304]
Originally by: Grimpak
rails are hard to fix because simply giving them more damage isn't the best solution (they are relatively well tracking-wise and as far as roles go, even considering that there's no real space in today's warfare, they are the weapons with the longest optimal). pumping more damage into them would make them too equal to lasers, altho maybe boosting their RoF, making them a low-damage rapid firing long range weapon would actually be an interesting combo. would require extensive testing, but it's the only way I see it sorta work.
Yeah, everyone wants a high rof, low alpha weapon. Railguns are around 5% better in base tracking(exluding projectile +tracking ammo) and dps than artillery, is that relatively well ? De hoes that make it better then a capless, devastating alpha strike, differing damage type ammo weapon system? Typical fleet comps say no. Tachyons do 31% more dps then 425mm railguns have better tracking, no reloading, and instant crystal swaps. And you want to boost the ROF on a weapon that already quickly caps out its ships, and runs out of ammo so quickly that you end up using faction and t2 ammo for pos shots. A 10% across the board damage boost is exactly ONE of the fixes railguns need. Atleast with that change a 55million ISK Amarr BS wont be able to outdamage the highest dpsing pirate battle ship. |
Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury |
Posted - 2011.01.27 01:06:00 - [ 305]
Originally by: Rastigan
Yeah, everyone wants a high rof, low alpha weapon.
They alreadt have blasters: alpha and hi rof. Plus mediocre dps/range application. Quote:
Railguns are around 5% better in base tracking
Yes, but: Quote:
exluding projectile +tracking ammo
while projectile ammo has x1.2 tracking coef hybrid ammo has exactly 0 and T2 ammo x0.45 so the 5%+ is inexistant since T2ammo lowers the overall number by almost 40%, or mabe someone is abble to find that 0.45 is better than 1.45 witch in this case we come from different planets. Quote:
...that make it better then a capless, devastating alpha strike, differing damage type ammo weapon system? Typical fleet comps say no.
Right, but some keep saying that hybrids are not useless, somewhere they are right, when you click on your button you use ammo and you hit targets that's all. Quote:
Tachyons do 31% more dps then 425mm railguns have better tracking, no reloading, and instant crystal swaps.
Not sure about those 31% but, try any Amarr BS with pulses and scorch for missions or pvp and then get back to your "ultra boosted" bathtub named Megathron Navy and rails T2, anyway never put blasters in that ship unless you want to loose it fast. You'll cry. (not talking about street gangs etc k?) Quote:
And you want to boost the ROF on a weapon that already quickly caps out its ships, and runs out of ammo so quickly that you end up using faction and t2 ammo for pos shots.
With some modifications about T2ammo like +dps and 1.45track instead of 0.45 this could give a huge help to rail platforms but it wouldn't change for blaster ones Quote:
A 10% across the board damage boost is exactly ONE of the fixes railguns need. Atleast with that change a 55million ISK Amarr BS wont be able to outdamage the highest dpsing pirate battle ship.
Liang has found the 15% number somewhere, it's not the only reason of failrails, T2ammo track coef too and for blaster platforms bonus there are even more issues. You will allways see guys saying "my hyperion is ultra blablabla", they are the only ones who belve that but i would be glad to be invited and take it for a ride to my favorite destination. I will only screen/film his miserable death, whenever they want.  |
Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest |
Posted - 2011.01.27 01:39:00 - [ 306]
TBH IMO rails would be helped immensely if on-grid warping was removed. Suddenly it would make sense to have people specializing in shooting out to the hardlock >_>
As far as blasters go, I think I've posted enough in this thread about them :D |
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell |
Posted - 2011.01.27 02:30:00 - [ 307]
Blasters need to have an overwhelming DPS advantage up close. In this game, the shorter the range, the higher the dps, and so as plenty of people have pointed out, their short range should equate to much MUCH more damage.
For rails to be balanced, there needs to be a re-balance of all long range guns. Their extra range is useless (and in fact unobtainable to non-rokhs) and so its not fair to balance them with it. If rails are going to be longest range and least damage, thats fine, but the ships that fit them should be to actually get out to that range, which means they need more lock range as well as optimal.
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 09:32:00 - [ 308]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 27/01/2011 09:34:31 Originally by: Katarlia Simov
For rails to be balanced, there needs to be a re-balance of all long range guns. Their extra range is useless (and in fact unobtainable to non-rokhs) and so its not fair to balance them with it.
Hardly. Sufficient range means that they can use CN Iridium instead of Spike, getting the same DPS as Spike but with much greater tracking, and the option of switching to higher-damage ammo at closer range. Giving rails more range should be a viable way of fixing them, as it would increase their DPS and tracking at range, while not changing their DPS close up. |
Naomi Knight
Amarr |
Posted - 2011.01.27 10:33:00 - [ 309]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 27/01/2011 09:34:31
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
For rails to be balanced, there needs to be a re-balance of all long range guns. Their extra range is useless (and in fact unobtainable to non-rokhs) and so its not fair to balance them with it.
Hardly. Sufficient range means that they can use CN Iridium instead of Spike, getting the same DPS as Spike but with much greater tracking, and the option of switching to higher-damage ammo at closer range.
Giving rails more range should be a viable way of fixing them, as it would increase their DPS and tracking at range, while not changing their DPS close up.
oh noo , where do you get this BS? giving them more range would fix them omg, you cant be that stupid , looks like you can Dumbio III |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 14:15:00 - [ 310]
That's lame, even by your standards, Naomi.  For snipers, more range = more DPS because range bonuses are damage bonuses. Plus the massive tracking boost that you get from switching from Spike to CN Iridium, and it helps on cap use too. You just need to have sufficient range to be able to use Iridum in the first place. This isn't a complicated concept.  |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.01.27 15:31:00 - [ 311]
|
Pod Amarr |
Posted - 2011.01.27 15:46:00 - [ 312]
Originally by: Cambarus
TBH IMO rails would be helped immensely if on-grid warping was removed. Suddenly it would make sense to have people specializing in shooting out to the hardlock >_>
As far as blasters go, I think I've posted enough in this thread about them :D
Increase size of the grid to 600 KM minimum warp distance 300 Lock cap to 350 make no warp to 0 on the scan. |
Mr Hyde113
Shadows Of The Federation
R.A.G.E |
Posted - 2011.01.27 20:24:00 - [ 313]
I have a few ideas regarding blasters that i'd like to throw out there for discussion.
Imagine blasters as a sawed off shotgun. Yes, it is a close range weapon, but extremely powerful.
Like you would imagine, even at close range, a shotgun has a "spread" and can hit several targets in the direction it is shot. The general idea would be that blasters could hit more than one hull or drone in a general area. Obviously the exact numbers, ranges, and specifics would require alot of testing. Maybe an ammo type that can only be used in 0.0 as to avoid hitting neutrals ect. Just an idea.
Also blasters like shotguns could have a slowing effect on their target. (If anyone is familiar with TF2, like the Natasha gun for the heavy or than new scout peppergun) Like maybe a random hit based effect that will for a small instant slow or stop a target's engines. Once again, just an idea, think of it as maybe applying a small web effect for a 1-2 second cycle upon successful hit?
Higher Chance is based on damage.
|
Meeko Atari |
Posted - 2011.01.27 20:31:00 - [ 314]
Originally by: Mr Hyde113
I have a few ideas regarding blasters that i'd like to throw out there for discussion.
Imagine blasters as a sawed off shotgun. Yes, it is a close range weapon, but extremely powerful.
Like you would imagine, even at close range, a shotgun has a "spread" and can hit several targets in the direction it is shot. The general idea would be that blasters could hit more than one hull or drone in a general area. Obviously the exact numbers, ranges, and specifics would require alot of testing. Maybe an ammo type that can only be used in 0.0 as to avoid hitting neutrals ect. Just an idea.
Also blasters like shotguns could have a slowing effect on their target. (If anyone is familiar with TF2, like the Natasha gun for the heavy or than new scout peppergun) Like maybe a random hit based effect that will for a small instant slow or stop a target's engines. Once again, just an idea, think of it as maybe applying a small web effect for a 1-2 second cycle upon successful hit?
Higher Chance is based on damage.
So you want to combine smart bombs and webs with blasters? Well that's not overpowered at all! Torps used to have a AOE damage to them as well, you know what happened to them? |
The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc. |
Posted - 2011.01.27 20:53:00 - [ 315]
Originally by: Meeko Atari
Originally by: Mr Hyde113
I have a few ideas regarding blasters that i'd like to throw out there for discussion.
Imagine blasters as a sawed off shotgun. Yes, it is a close range weapon, but extremely powerful.
Like you would imagine, even at close range, a shotgun has a "spread" and can hit several targets in the direction it is shot. The general idea would be that blasters could hit more than one hull or drone in a general area. Obviously the exact numbers, ranges, and specifics would require alot of testing. Maybe an ammo type that can only be used in 0.0 as to avoid hitting neutrals ect. Just an idea.
Also blasters like shotguns could have a slowing effect on their target. (If anyone is familiar with TF2, like the Natasha gun for the heavy or than new scout peppergun) Like maybe a random hit based effect that will for a small instant slow or stop a target's engines. Once again, just an idea, think of it as maybe applying a small web effect for a 1-2 second cycle upon successful hit?
Higher Chance is based on damage.
So you want to combine smart bombs and webs with blasters? Well that's not overpowered at all!
Torps used to have a AOE damage to them as well, you know what happened to them?
Actually no, blasters was like a scalpel with the power of a sledgehammer in the right hands(if you did know how to web and play in 90% speed reduced environments), by her ability to force stuff into peak dps situations. You did die extremely quick, same goes to your target and they where the only weapon(also ship type) that could do the trick on her own very well. There was a reason blaster ships where called lethal in solo/small gang scenarios. I for myself wouldn't mind about seeing AOE damage on Torps again, everything that works better against blobs than small gangs is welcome and benefits eve overall. |
Altaica Amur
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League |
Posted - 2011.01.27 21:05:00 - [ 316]
Quote:
Hardly. Sufficient range means that they can use CN Iridium instead of Spike, getting the same DPS as Spike but with much greater tracking, and the option of switching to higher-damage ammo at closer range.
Giving rails more range should be a viable way of fixing them, as it would increase their DPS and tracking at range, while not changing their DPS close up.
Quote:
For snipers, more range = more DPS because range bonuses are damage bonuses. Plus the massive tracking boost that you get from switching from Spike to CN Iridium, and it helps on cap use too. You just need to have sufficient range to be able to use Iridum in the first place. This isn't a complicated concept. Wink
1/2 While you're correct that a range bonus allows rails to get better tracking it cannot provide better DPS so long as t2 ammo remains unchanged. The 50% range bonus on the Rokh is wiped away completely by moving away from the 80% range bonus to spike, if you use anything less rangy then Iridum you'll hit less far then a megathron using spike and even using DG ammo you'll still have gained no DPS whatsoever compared to using spike on a Rokh. Basically all that you get out of trying to turn your range advantage into a dps advantage is tracking and of the two dps is a far larger weakness for the Rokh. If you want your statements to be true Gypsio III then t2 ammo will have to be either massively nerfed or removed from the game. Since that isn't likely/desirable we're left with needing to improve rails from a dps standpoint as they're supposed to be the high RoF weapon so alpha's out of the question and lasers have the lock on tracking anyways. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 22:04:00 - [ 317]
Originally by: Altaica Amur
1/2
While you're correct that a range bonus allows rails to get better tracking it cannot provide better DPS so long as t2 ammo remains unchanged. The 50% range bonus on the Rokh is wiped away completely by moving away from the 80% range bonus to spike, if you use anything less rangy then Iridum you'll hit less far then a megathron using spike and even using DG ammo you'll still have gained no DPS whatsoever compared to using spike on a Rokh.
Basically all that you get out of trying to turn your range advantage into a dps advantage is tracking and of the two dps is a far larger weakness for the Rokh. If you want your statements to be true Gypsio III then t2 ammo will have to be either massively nerfed or removed from the game.
All of this is correct. And I have no objection to giving rails a DPS boost - the damage is lacklustre - I was simply talking in terms of range. However... a large enough range boost would enable the use of Lead and even Thorium (CF Eagle) instead of Iridium at a certain range, giving more DPS than Spike. I don't know whether such a rail range boost is actually sensible though. For example, a triple-MFS, triple-TC Rokh gets 415 DPS at 133/58 km with CN Thorium, and 321 DPS with Spike. What optimal should the Thorium Rokh have for rails to be considered "fixed"? Or if the DPS of Thorium is not enough, then CN Uranium gives 461 DPS at 114/58 km. A 10% range boost would take these to 146/58 km and 125/58 km... 20% to 150/58 km and 137/58 km. Is this sensible? I supposed the other question here is what effect this has on the Megathron. |
Grut
The Protei
|
Posted - 2011.01.27 22:18:00 - [ 318]
Originally by: Altaica Amur
Since that isn't likely/desirable we're left with needing to improve rails from a dps standpoint as they're supposed to be the high RoF weapon so alpha's out of the question and lasers have the lock on tracking anyways.
Its a shame alphas FOTM and kinda important for laggy situations. The dps on the old sniper bs used to be; 321/350/370/400 rohk/mega/tempest/apoc So if you jacked 425 dps up to 380 (6%) it'd be prettymuch were its meant to be. I'd like to see the ammo changed to make it more interesting, maybe split everything into 2 sets one 4:1 thermal:kinetic and + tracking, the other the other way round and -cap. Maybe drop the reload for hybrids down to 5 secs, it hurts them way more then projectiles due to the greater falloff. A guy had a cool idea of dropping the clip size to give burst DPS rather then damage. Say 20 seconds of burst, 5 of reload, gives 475 dps burst on 380 average so quite cool. The caldari rail and gallente blaster/rail hulls are in general pretty trash so could do with a seperate boost. Caldari could do with 50% swapped to 75% optimal to make it actually mean something. |
Altaica Amur
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League |
Posted - 2011.01.27 23:47:00 - [ 319]
Quote:
All of this is correct. And I have no objection to giving rails a DPS boost - the damage is lacklustre - I was simply talking in terms of range. However... a large enough range boost would enable the use of Lead and even Thorium (CF Eagle) instead of Iridium at a certain range, giving more DPS than Spike. I don't know whether such a rail range boost is actually sensible though.
The issue with range boosts alone is similar to the issue with damage boosts alone on blasters. It really suits the caldari rail boats which along with their optimal bonus will get past the 'dead zone' of t1 ammos that can't compete with spike but the gallente hulls will struggle to take advantage of such a bonus effectively. Thankfully unlike blasters changing rails to suite both caldari and gallente hulls is a lot easier, they both could really appreciate a damage boost and would remain distinct from one and other. Blasters have the issue that to really suit the caldari hulls at all they either need more optimal to make the optimal bonus less of a joke or some way to change how the optimal bonus works, inclusion of falloff might achieve the necessary effect, certainly while the caldari hulls will appreciate a strait damage bonus here as well they will suffer from lacking any meaningful difference between the Caldari blaster boat and the Gallente other then the fact that they do less DPS and shield tank. Quote:
I'd like to see the ammo changed to make it more interesting, maybe split everything into 2 sets one 4:1 thermal:kinetic and + tracking, the other the other way round and -cap.
Maybe drop the reload for hybrids down to 5 secs, it hurts them way more then projectiles due to the greater falloff.
A guy had a cool idea of dropping the clip size to give burst DPS rather then damage. Say 20 seconds of burst, 5 of reload, gives 475 dps burst on 380 average so quite cool.
The caldari rail and gallente blaster/rail hulls are in general pretty trash so could do with a seperate boost. Caldari could do with 50% swapped to 75% optimal to make it actually mean something.
That is indeed a cool idea with the long reloads but high DPS bursts, certainly I think that having rails inhabit the high dps niche in sniping would be best as projectiles have alpha, lasers have tracking and extreme range flexibility with hot-swap crystal switches. Having high dps bursts using a high RoF, ammo constraints being one of the ways you could restrict rails to just a handful of chosen ranges vs lasers who can take a full rainbow of crystals with ease. |
Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest |
Posted - 2011.01.27 23:53:00 - [ 320]
Originally by: Altaica Amur
Quote:
All of this is correct. And I have no objection to giving rails a DPS boost - the damage is lacklustre - I was simply talking in terms of range. However... a large enough range boost would enable the use of Lead and even Thorium (CF Eagle) instead of Iridium at a certain range, giving more DPS than Spike. I don't know whether such a rail range boost is actually sensible though.
The issue with range boosts alone is similar to the issue with damage boosts alone on blasters. It really suits the caldari rail boats which along with their optimal bonus will get past the 'dead zone' of t1 ammos that can't compete with spike but the gallente hulls will struggle to take advantage of such a bonus effectively. Thankfully unlike blasters changing rails to suite both caldari and gallente hulls is a lot easier, they both could really appreciate a damage boost and would remain distinct from one and other.
Blasters have the issue that to really suit the caldari hulls at all they either need more optimal to make the optimal bonus less of a joke or some way to change how the optimal bonus works, inclusion of falloff might achieve the necessary effect, certainly while the caldari hulls will appreciate a strait damage bonus here as well they will suffer from lacking any meaningful difference between the Caldari blaster boat and the Gallente other then the fact that they do less DPS and shield tank.
Quote:
I'd like to see the ammo changed to make it more interesting, maybe split everything into 2 sets one 4:1 thermal:kinetic and + tracking, the other the other way round and -cap.
Maybe drop the reload for hybrids down to 5 secs, it hurts them way more then projectiles due to the greater falloff.
A guy had a cool idea of dropping the clip size to give burst DPS rather then damage. Say 20 seconds of burst, 5 of reload, gives 475 dps burst on 380 average so quite cool.
The caldari rail and gallente blaster/rail hulls are in general pretty trash so could do with a seperate boost. Caldari could do with 50% swapped to 75% optimal to make it actually mean something.
That is indeed a cool idea with the long reloads but high DPS bursts, certainly I think that having rails inhabit the high dps niche in sniping would be best as projectiles have alpha, lasers have tracking and extreme range flexibility with hot-swap crystal switches. Having high dps bursts using a high RoF, ammo constraints being one of the ways you could restrict rails to just a handful of chosen ranges vs lasers who can take a full rainbow of crystals with ease.
I still think the best bet for rails is to mess with on-grid warping. As it stands any weapon system can hit out to 150km, which is the range beyond which sniping is useless due to probes and ongrid warping. Change the warp distance to, say, 250km, and suddenly the ability to hit 200km easily becomes something that can actually be used properly in a fight. |
The Grabbler
Dangerous Kitten Assault Team |
Posted - 2011.01.28 00:02:00 - [ 321]
Fly Minmatar |
Omara Otawan |
Posted - 2011.01.28 00:09:00 - [ 322]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 28/01/2011 00:36:48 Originally by: Cambarus
I still think the best bet for rails is to mess with on-grid warping. As it stands any weapon system can hit out to 150km, which is the range beyond which sniping is useless due to probes and ongrid warping. Change the warp distance to, say, 250km, and suddenly the ability to hit 200km easily becomes something that can actually be used properly in a fight.
That in turn nerfs all close-range tactics, especially those that profit from dropping right on their targets (i.e. blaster BS). It also puts huge emphasis on the defensive side by making it even easier to castle in your home where you got tacticals all over the place, I dont think that is what the game currently needs. Poor move given that long-range battleships on themselves are fine, and extra range can just as well be translated into extra damage or extra EHP. |
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell |
Posted - 2011.01.28 10:35:00 - [ 323]
I'd quote people, but since they pretty all decided to ignore what I said and restate their own points, I may as well do the same.
The whole thing about rails, range and balance is screwed because of the combination of all of them.
Their long range at present isn't a fair balance, because we are not trying to rebalance the Rokh. The rokh is ok. The problem for rails is not particularly that they suck, its a combination of factors.
First off, you HAVE to use the megathron, which is already screwing with you. 4 med slots fighting for mwd, cap booster, ECCM, tracking comps and sensor boosters. That's a huge problem, and although it has some lows to offset that, you are sacrificing HP just to get the guns to the right range.
The Rokh and Apoc have optimal bonuses. The tempest has lots of med slots, and since it has huge falloff, tracking computers help it a lot more than other ships. The abbadon has a tank bonus.
You see where I'm going with this ?
All of the other snipers have bonuses that account for modules they otherwise wouldn't have space for.
If you want weapons to be properly balanced the hulls need to be tweaked. Personally, I think the hype should be re-tooled into a sniper platform. Optimal range boost. Job done.
|
Spartan dax |
Posted - 2011.01.28 11:09:00 - [ 324]
I'm not sure what annoys me the most. The fact that an Eagle has a raw dps output with faction antimatter that barely surpasses that of a Zealot with Long range aurora or something else.. It's pretty high up on the list I'm sure.
Thing is, I could live with it's anemic AM DPS if it lost far less dps compared to a zealot as the range increased. (A zealot with Aurora has 57% of it's DPS compared to faction Multi, Eagle 66% with faction Lead compared to AM at the same:ish range)
The damage reduction on longer range ammo could be played with here together with a tracking modifier to make sure that railboats don't get *LOLtracking* with high dps at long ranges. Ofc that could also benifits blasterboats. AM ammo could for instance have a positive tracking modifier.
85-90% of Max Raw dps with longest range ammo should make hybrids very interesting and unique. (Severe tracking nerf ofc on long range ammo) |
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