| Author |
Topic |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
|
Posted - 2011.01.12 01:31:00 - [ 61]
 Originally by: Fon Revedhort
Originally by: Drakarin
Passive scan. Man, they really do give all the advantages to the ganker. Bit ridiculous. What is the point in even having rare modules in this game? Unless I gimp my ship by reducing my dps and tank so I'm unprobable and cloaked, there's no way to protect myself because someone can scan me without me even knowing. Really that's ridiculous.
It's pretty simple - those modules are there for people like me (willing to take a risk and use this gear in PvP). They surely have never been released for the joy of farmers, uncapable of doing anything beyond simpliest PvE.
The difference you will make in a fleet with faction modules is so miniscule it's laughable. If you fly solo, who cares, the modules won't even remotely help you win an outnumbered fight. The only advantage the Tengu has is it's fairly easy to avoid conflicts you don't wait. But if you're actively looking for pvp, eventually you will be baited (anything can be used for bait) and anihilated. So again, there really is no reason to have the modules in the game at all. |
Daneel Trevize
Gallente |
Posted - 2011.01.12 02:19:00 - [ 62]
Pretty sure 'rare' implants and tanking mods have helped me win plenty of outnumbered fights when otherwise I'd have not tanked for long enough, or got a target tackled to kill it and removed it's dps rather than be kited 'til I run dry of cap/buffer, or even been able to fit all the mods I've fitted due to fancy faction reduced cpu/PG usage or extra provision. |
Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T. |
Posted - 2011.01.12 03:04:00 - [ 63]
|
Paola DiLivio |
Posted - 2011.01.12 03:11:00 - [ 64]
Originally by: Nanferr
Edited by: Nanferr on 04/01/2011 20:53:24
The unprobeable tengu is ussualy fit with intercalated nanofibers and massively reduce'd signature radius.
No matter how they sebo their Maelstrom/tempest, they wont be able to beat tengu's 3 second allign and reduced signature radius.
Ive flewn lowsec for long time now, been through a hundred camps successfully. As long as there is no Loki or proteus, ill just bang through directly through gates. They arent gonna beat my 110 sigrad 3 sec allign, specially when i have an alt decloak first to screw up their targeting.
You know all you need is a sacrificial frigate to get initial tackle right? |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 06:51:00 - [ 65]
Well, having this Tengu for a while now I definitely see how it's considered awesome. One thing that bothers me though, is being limited to kinetic damage missiles only. Why is the subsystem bonus only benefiting scourge missiles? I fail to see how an overall damage bonus to all heavy missile types would be overpowered.
Just gives a bit more flexibility to a ship specifically designed to be modular and have options. |
Ranka Mei
Caldari |
Posted - 2011.01.13 07:03:00 - [ 66]
Originally by: Drakarin
Well, having this Tengu for a while now I definitely see how it's considered awesome. One thing that bothers me though, is being limited to kinetic damage missiles only. Why is the subsystem bonus only benefiting scourge missiles? I fail to see how an overall damage bonus to all heavy missile types would be overpowered.
Just gives a bit more flexibility to a ship specifically designed to be modular and have options.
Caldari ships on a whole only have kinetic missile bonusses. And we're the only race that can fit for all 4 damage types as it is. Which is probably why CCP reasoned we don't need yet another boon on top of that. |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 07:12:00 - [ 67]
It really wouldn't make much difference in the end, though. Wouldn't change much PvP wise, would just give more flexibility to, like I said, a ship specificaly designed to be flexible. It's also extremely expensive. Since running level 4s in a Tengu is obviously not intended to be hard, I don't see the big deal in giving an overall bonus to missile damage, rather than only kinetic.
Or at least two types of damage. Maybe kinetic and EM or something like that. |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.01.13 09:03:00 - [ 68]
Originally by: Drakarin
Why is the subsystem bonus only benefiting scourge missiles?
Kinetic is Caldari's racial damage type. Quote:
I fail to see how an overall damage bonus to all heavy missile types would be overpowered.
True, full bonus, damage type selection on top of a range and 7.5% dmg bonus? You don't see how that would be overpowered? Quote:
Just gives a bit more flexibility to a ship specifically designed to be modular and have options.
You have the choice to use other missiles. There are plenty of situations where you are better off foregoing the kinetic bonus for hitting a resist hole (hello Shield Cane with 38% EM resist, meet Mr. Thunderbolt). No other race gets full damage type selection (Minmatar lack a high DPS kinetic ammo). Unless you're talking about droneboats, which is debatable (when is the last time you saw someone use Amarr drones?) |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 10:02:00 - [ 69]
Normally, I would agree, but remember we are talking about medium tier weapons here, not the big guns. They're only heavy missiles.
Considering we're also talking about a 700 million isk ship, cheap side, I again say it's not crazy to think it should be able to get a damage bonus towards more than just kinetic. There are plenty of ships ten times cheaper that deal equal or more damage. The Tengu has a fantastic tank, but it's offensive capabilities are far from impressive relative to its cost. So play to its strengths in flexibility in options. An overall damage increase would do nothing more than allow it to run some missions a bit faster. Again, how is that overpowered?
I do admit in the T3 pool the Tengu is epic. But that's not because the Tengu is too good, it's because the other T3s aren't good enough. Least the Caldari get an ace hand for once. (besides the drake of course). |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.01.13 10:27:00 - [ 70]
Edited by: Target Painter on 13/01/2011 12:41:34 Originally by: Drakarin
There are plenty of ships ten times cheaper that deal equal or more damage.
Not at 100km. Quote:
The Tengu has a fantastic tank, but it's offensive capabilities are far from impressive relative to its cost.
It puts out more practical DPS at range than most battleships. You can get 900 (theoretical) DPS out of a HAM fit to around 40km, or 600 (practical) DPS out of a HML fit to past 100km. FYI, an arty fit Loki can barely break half that DPS at 100km. An autocannon Loki struggles to match 600 DPS at point-blank range. Legion? Not just no, but hell no. Quote:
So play to its strengths in flexibility in options. An overall damage increase would do nothing more than allow it to run some missions a bit faster. Again, how is that overpowered?
There is also PvP in this game. The 100MN AB Tengu fit is already somewhat nuts when you throw in faction points and a skirmish booster. Giving it (potentially) 1K+ DPS would be literally insane, regardless of cost. (inb4 "WTB Deimos with 100% resists") Quote:
I do admit in the T3 pool the Tengu is epic. But that's not because the Tengu is too good, it's because the other T3s aren't good enough. Least the Caldari get an ace hand for once. (besides the drake of course).
While I agree the Legion could certainly use some love, their are aspects of the Loki I suspect are going to be nerfed, hard, in the near future (protip: amplification node). |
Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury |
Posted - 2011.01.13 12:19:00 - [ 71]
Edited by: Joss56 on 13/01/2011 12:26:47
Edited by: Joss56 on 13/01/2011 12:25:16
@ Target Painter &/or Liang
Thanks you guys/girls for those explanations.
What i don't realy agree about T2 lounchers is:
T2 louncher specialisation (MH) 2% rate of fire per lvl and aloud using of T2 ammo. Assuming you have lvl5 means 10% gain in rate of fire. Dread guristas lounchers aloud some gain that is not insignificant in terms of ROF and has better capacity using less pg/cap/tf
Now i'm wondering, but not sure att all mabe even i've missed the point, but isn't better on overall situation to use something like Dread Guristas lounchers with caldari navy missiles?
Lets not forget in this precise case that even in a Tengu you have pg/cap/tf restrictions. I'm only refering to a Tangu pve fit.
Coupled with some Faction balistic controls and T2rigs it seems to me that the dps difference between T2 ammo and Navy Missiles doesn't justifies (sry spelling) the difference (cost) between fury's and navy's, in pve situations of course. I will not compare with pvp witch I don't know a clue about it.
Thank you for your clarifications has always smart and precious.
(sry for my poor english) |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.01.13 13:19:00 - [ 72]
Edited by: Target Painter on 13/01/2011 13:24:38 Originally by: Joss56
Now i'm wondering, but not sure att all mabe even i've missed the point, but isn't better on overall situation to use something like Dread Guristas lounchers with caldari navy missiles?
Lets not forget in this precise case that even in a Tengu you have pg/cap/tf restrictions. I'm only refering to a Tangu pve fit.
Faction launchers with maxed skills firing CN Scourge give 659 DPS. T2 launchers with HM spec IV, firing T2 scourge fury does 699 DPS. T2 launchers with faction missiles does 641. I use 4 BCUs and rigor rigs on my PvE Tengu. Quote:
Coupled with some Faction balistic controls and T2rigs it seems to me that the dps difference between T2 ammo and Navy Missiles doesn't justifies (sry spelling) the difference (cost) between fury's and navy's, in pve situations of course.
T2 missiles do nearly as well as faction, at something like a third or half the cost. The downside is additional training, but really, you can skip the 5th level of the specialization skill and the required skills for HM spec you probably have already. After that, it's easy getting the spec skill to IV (3 days, IIRC). |
Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury |
Posted - 2011.01.13 14:06:00 - [ 73]
Thank you Target Painter.  |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
|
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:23:00 - [ 74]
Actually the downside is a ridiculous explosion radius, almost double that of T1 missiles, less flight time, and a signature radius penalty.
And they are only twice as cheap as faction.
Truly they have way too many drawbacks considering what they bring to the table. |
Tusen Takk
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund
31ST Reliables Division |
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:52:00 - [ 75]
Originally by: oldmanst4r
Originally by: Drakarin
Thanks for the response. It's possible that EFT isn't being accurate here, but what it tells me is thet Gist C-type shield booster is leaps and bounds better than faction boosters. Less CPU, about half the capacitor need, and more omni tanking.
Definitely not cheap, but that wasn't really the issue. :)
I did move from Dodixie to another non-disclosed system, but someone may eventually figure out my routine, which is dangerous. Really seems unfair that there's no way to really defend your ship even if you play it smart.
And as far as damage goes, how the hell can I possibly get 800 dps?
Oh, just noticed that EFT shows how much impact my signature radius has loading the furies in, 150 sig to 195! That's huge. Man I really don't like that.
Damage is increased, to be sure, but no where near 800. Using the All skills V feature, using four CN BCU's and 5 HML T2s with scourge furies loaded, I get 559 dps.
I believe the exact figure is 842 dps with 6 launchers, 4CNBCUs, Scourge Fury, a Tech II ROF rig, 5% missile hardwirings and perfect skills. It's achievable but likely to be in the high seven hundreds us characters who have good but not perfect missile skills, or who like to use tech II rigors.
as i recall there is a glitch in EFT that makes it count a 4th BCU as affective. if i did the maths right, 3 is optimal. |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.01.14 04:50:00 - [ 76]
Edited by: Target Painter on 14/01/2011 04:53:17Edited by: Target Painter on 14/01/2011 04:52:56 Originally by: Drakarin
Truly they have way too many drawbacks considering what they bring to the table.
Come with t1 or faction missiles loaded, kill frigs and cruisers. Reload to furies, kill battleships. I should postscript this by saying I live in NPC 0.0 and the additional ability to load precisions is valued when I get tackled 13 off the gate by a Dramiel. |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 04:58:00 - [ 77]
Originally by: Target Painter
Edited by: Target Painter on 14/01/2011 04:53:17
Edited by: Target Painter on 14/01/2011 04:52:56
Originally by: Drakarin
Truly they have way too many drawbacks considering what they bring to the table.
Come with t1 or faction missiles loaded, kill frigs and cruisers. Reload to furies, kill battleships. I should postscript this by saying I live in NPC 0.0 and the additional ability to load precisions is valued when I get tackled 13 off the gate by a Dramiel.
True, but that's part of my point. Flexibility in available options. Maybe I'm crazy, but an overall damage bonus won't change much besides making some missions a bit faster. |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.01.14 08:56:00 - [ 78]
Originally by: Drakarin
Flexibility in available options.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from firing EM, thermal or explosive missiles. The bonus to kinetic damage makes it the best choice in the majority of situations, but absolutely not all. Quote:
Maybe I'm crazy...
You are suggesting boosting the best overall PvE ship in EVE. Yes, you are crazy. Quote:
...but an overall damage bonus won't change much besides making some missions a bit faster.
And making the Tengu even more overpowered than it already is in PvP. There is a reason few ships get complete damage type selection: because it's difficult to balance when they can hit the weakest resist, hardest, every time. Half of the ships that do get complete damage selection (Torp Phoon, Raven, Golem, etc.) don't get the double DPS bonuses (RoF/Dmg per level). With other half being the Khanid ships, constrained instead by bonuses applying only to HAMs/rockets. |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 09:22:00 - [ 79]
It's highly imbalanced though, as anyone can supertank their armor//shields heavily against kinetic (if you only go one resistance it's easy to hit 95%) and then I'm completely useless in pvp.
Again, it's a billion isk ship, if not multi billion. It SHOULD be damn good. The fact the other T3s suck in comparison is an issue. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 09:30:00 - [ 80]
Originally by: Drakarin
It's highly imbalanced though, as anyone can supertank their armor//shields heavily against kinetic (if you only go one resistance it's easy to hit 95%) and then I'm completely useless in pvp.
If you only take missiles of one damage type in PVP, use kinetic against Caldari or Gallente T2 resists, or are unable to recognise when someone has supertanked their T1 kinetic resist, then you deserve to get blown up.  |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.01.14 09:51:00 - [ 81]
Edited by: Target Painter on 14/01/2011 10:26:55 Originally by: Drakarin
It's highly imbalanced though, as anyone can supertank their armor//shields heavily against kinetic
Then fire a different kind of missile. At any rate, very few people do this unless they are certain they will be facing Drakes. Even then, it doesn't always work out, because there is always "That Guy", firing Thunderbolts and Widowmakers. Most tanks in PvP are omni, with some glaring EM and explosive holes. Quote:
(if you only go one resistance it's easy to hit 95%) and then I'm completely useless in pvp.
Amarr laser boats would like to have a word with you. Lack of damage selection hurts, but it isn't crippling by any means. Quote:
Again, it's a billion isk ship, if not multi billion. It SHOULD be damn good.
It is already damned good. How many sub-BSes do over 600 DPS at past 100km? You can easily hit six figure EHP. Quote:
The fact the other T3s suck in comparison is an issue.
It's worth noting that the most popular T3 in PvP is the Loki, by far. The Tengu isn't even among the top 20 ships. |
Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
|
Posted - 2011.01.14 10:08:00 - [ 82]
Well, being able to hit out to 100km is fine, albeit delayed. It doesn't help much in PvP though, because you can't warp scramble anywhere near that far. |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.01.14 11:06:00 - [ 83]
Edited by: Target Painter on 14/01/2011 11:08:32 Originally by: Drakarin
Well, being able to hit out to 100km is fine, albeit delayed. It doesn't help much in PvP though, because you can't warp scramble anywhere near that far.
RF Warp Disruptor reaches 30km, 42km on with a maxed boosting Loki. The common shiptypes can't even reach that far, with the exception of the Drake, which the Tengu out-ganks and out-tanks. This is, of course, assuming you don't have an inty or Dram tackling for you. http://eve-search.com/thread/1436533/page/1 --- Tengu's ****ting all over half of EVE. |
Pod Amarr |
Posted - 2011.01.14 11:13:00 - [ 84]
Edited by: Pod Amarr on 14/01/2011 11:14:29 Originally by: Drakarin
Well, being able to hit out to 100km is fine, albeit delayed. It doesn't help much in PvP though, because you can't warp scramble anywhere near that far.
For solo yes. But kind of getting tired of this argument use your range dps advantage stick bit further from the action OR fit HAM's. [this also goes for when you want to solo] Hell, even Cerb is OK when you do no try to fit a dam tackle on everything. All this "point for everyone" BS is from 2004 when 5 people were a fleet evolve a bit FFS. Evolve please. Specialize stay at 80 and put target painter as a dmg boost ewar that helps all members of the gang including you. Sticking points everywhere is stupid. If your FC want s points on everything then just leave the fleet since he is useless.  |
Chug Robitussin |
Posted - 2011.01.21 10:34:00 - [ 85]
nice |
Deadeye Jedi |
Posted - 2011.01.21 11:15:00 - [ 86]
Quote:
There is also PvP in this game. The 100MN AB Tengu fit is already somewhat nuts when you throw in faction points and a skirmish booster. Giving it (potentially) 1K+ DPS would be literally insane, regardless of cost.
Any chance someone could post this setup, including rigs etc? |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2011.01.25 07:07:00 - [ 87]
Originally by: Deadeye Jedi
Quote:
There is also PvP in this game. The 100MN AB Tengu fit is already somewhat nuts when you throw in faction points and a skirmish booster. Giving it (potentially) 1K+ DPS would be literally insane, regardless of cost.
Any chance someone could post this setup, including rigs etc?
I missed this post. [Tengu, 100MN Tengu pimped] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II Core X-Type 100MN Afterburner Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field True Sansha Stasis Webifier Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst 500 DPS outgoing, tanks 775 DPS on overheat with a standard blue pill. Which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things, but you shouldn't be sitting at brawler range slugging it out in a missile boat anyway. Almost 1700m/s with maxed navigation skills, 2400ish with the AB overheated. Web is to help clear fast tackle off you and allows you to use double rigors. Keep blue pill and crash boosters on hand, inject as needed. I also recommend FoFs as well, because of Falcon. |
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