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blankseplocked PREDICTION: Within days, FOTM will be unprobe-able T3 ganglink alts
 
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Mueva
Posted - 2010.12.10 15:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mueva on 10/12/2010 17:09:17
What is she talking about?


With inexpensive faction co-processors, one can fit a t3 cruiser out to be unprobe-able, cloaky, immune to interdiction bubbles, and agile - all while running between three and four ganglinks supported by a subsystem bonus to their effectiveness.

Such a ship can enter a system unmolested, warp to a safespot, and provide ganglink bonuses with impunity. Once such a ship has entered a system, which in itself represents an almost risk-free movement for the ship due to interdiction nullification, covert ops cloak, and high agility, there is literally nothing that can be done to mitigate its use, or counter the bonuses which it provides.


The bonuses provided by such a ship to any ships in squad with it are quite powerful. Here is what we are looking at:

Ganglink Tengu:

Active Shielding Link: -28.12% shield booster duration.
Shield Efficiency Link: -28.12% capacitor requirement for shield boosters.
Shield Harmonizing Link: +28.12% to kinetic, thermal, explosive, and EM shield resistances.
(Siege Warfare skill also receives a slight boost for enhanced shield HP)

Ganglink Loki:

Interdiction Maneuvers Link: +42.19% range bonus to stasis webifiers, warp disruptors, and warp scramblers.
Evasive Maneuvers Link: -28.12% to signature radius.
Rapid Deployment Link: +28.12% to base ship velocity.
(Skirmish Warfare skill also receives a slight boost, for enhanced agility)

Ganglink Legion:

Passive Defence Link: +28.12% explosive, thermal, kinetic, EM armor resistances.
Damage Control Link: -28.12% capacitor requirement for activation of Armor Reps.
Rapid Repair Link: -28.12% armor Rep duration.
(Armored Warfare skill also receives a slight boost, for enhanced armor HP)

Further, a fourth, unbonused link can also be fit. The fourth link's effectiveness will be lowered somewhat, as each t3's warfare subsystem only provides a bonus to one specific type of ganglink. For example, a Loki can run three bonused skirmish ganglinks, and then alongside them can also run a Shield Harmonizing link, but with a 15% shield resistance bonus instead of the full 28.12% shield resistance bonus which a Tengu can provide. Or, an anti ECM Sensor Integrity link could be used instead, for +22.5% sensor strength.



Why will these be FOTM within a few days?


A side effect of the learning skill point reimbursement.

The skills required for a character that can fly such a ship have, until now, been time prohibitive - they are off-remap charisma-based skills. It is important to note that, overall, not a lot of skillpoints are required for such a ship. However, the skillpoints are time consuming to train.

Even today, this type of ship is becoming more and more common due to its incredibly potent bonuses, and the conspicuous absence of any sort of counter-measure to its use. 4 Million skillpoints covers the bulk of the Leadership skills required for use of such a ship; everyone and their alt is getting 2-4 million skillpoints banked.


What is the point of this thread?


I predict greater imbalance than exists now.

There is no counter to the unprobe-able t3 ganglink alt. The ship warps cloaked, it is immune to interdiction, it has superb agility, and it cannot be probed or safespot busted (by any time-efficient method, anyhow).

The only counter measure, is deployment of one's own unprobe-able T3 ganglink alt. This is most definitely feasible for many solo and small gang players with alts.

However, for the presence of such a ship to be pre-requisite to PvP, is to imbalance the game, with a specific strategy/shiptype too heavily favored. Hey, I'll be flying one in a few days, and all my friends already have them.


Thoughts?

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.12.10 15:46:00 - [2]
 

im sure a threat telling everyone how much of a good idea it is will help it not be so popular....

fail.

Mueva
Posted - 2010.12.10 15:48:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Mueva on 10/12/2010 15:54:56
Originally by: Dr Fighter
im sure a threat telling everyone how much of a good idea it is will help it not be so popular....

fail.



Thank you for your fantastic and thoughtful contribution to my thread.


EDIT: Your point is bogus anyways. My friend, you either don't read any non-CCP Eve forums, or you don't PvP with any good (or even halfway-good) players. Almost everyone who would consider running such a ship on an alt (I.E. anyone who seriously PvPs, and has a good knowledge of the game mechanics) is already VERY MUCH AWARE.

My intent in creating this thread, is that of catalyst for discussion. I feel that this is going to become a serious problem for the game, and quite soon.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.10 15:48:00 - [4]
 

Except, in a small situation, all other things being equal you'd be better off with an extra ship on the grid helping you kill the enemy.

Bootleg Greg
Minmatar
Death on Sight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.10 15:49:00 - [5]
 

NEWS FLASH

Alts FOTM

Since 2004..

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.10 15:53:00 - [6]
 

I'd like to see your 4-link unprobable T3 fits. It's tough enough making 3-linkers unprobable.

Aquana Abyss
Posted - 2010.12.10 15:58:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Aquana Abyss on 10/12/2010 15:58:50
Thanks for the numbers but this is old news.

Edit: oh and you forgot the lol information link Proteus.

Ario
Caldari
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:00:00 - [8]
 

People will just have to relearn the art of breaking safespots with no probes. I'm sure there are some old threads on how to do it, but i can't find them.

SoMeDuDe904
Fear Inc
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:01:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mavnas
Except, in a small situation, all other things being equal you'd be better off with an extra ship on the grid helping you kill the enemy.


very true, a falcon alt in a 2 or 3 man gang is more useful, nullifies more ships, than the loki/tengu/legion bonuses are worth. ide rather have the falcon alt.

tbh imo i think we will see alot of toons putting this sp into leadership like u said, but not necessarily into T3's

Mueva
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:11:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Mueva on 10/12/2010 16:41:53

Originally by: Malcanis
I'd like to see your 4-link unprobable T3 fits. It's tough enough making 3-linkers unprobable.


Loki:

136 sensor over 130 signature - signature before effects of skirmish link are factored, and is much lower with links on. Four links. T2 rigs are optional. DG Co-Processors aren't expensive. You can free up another lowslot if you spend 80-100m per unit on three Kaikka co-processors. You can fit two nanos and drop the lowslot ECCM module if you fit LG Jackals (but they are bugged). 3.5s align time.

Not bubble proof. Fine for lowsec.


[Loki, Ganglinks]
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Warded Ladar Backup Cluster I

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers
Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing
[empty high slot]

Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II

Loki Defensive - Warfare Processor
Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Loki Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Loki Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Loki Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector

Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' AY-1
Skirmish Warfare Mindlink


For four links, bubble proof and unprobe-able before signature link is factored in, your Loki needs Kaikka co-processors. Again, these are only ~100m each. I even got two for 80. Align time drops to 4.5s

Here:


[Loki, Ganglinks]
Warded Ladar Backup Cluster I
Kaikka's Modified Co-Processor
Kaikka's Modified Co-Processor
Kaikka's Modified Co-Processor

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers
Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing
[empty high slot]

Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II

Loki Defensive - Warfare Processor
Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Loki Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Loki Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier
Loki Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector

Hardwiring - Zainou 'Gypsy' KMB-25
Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' AY-1
Skirmish Warfare Mindlink


Tengu:

162 signature over 160 sensor (unprobe-able). Four links. You can free up another lowslot for more agility with bugged talons. This is bubble proof and cloaky. Also inexpensive, no faction or officer mods required. 3.5s align time.


[Tengu, Ganglinks]
Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Warded Gravimetric Backup Cluster I

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]
Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Efficiency
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers

Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II

Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Defensive - Warfare Processor

Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' AY-1
Siege Warfare Mindlink



Take Enemy
Archron Dusyfe Industries
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ario
People will just have to relearn the art of breaking safespots with no probes. I'm sure there are some old threads on how to do it, but i can't find them.


Did this last week. Though the jack*** was unfortunately not afk and overshot the point. Ah well, I am sure he had to get a clean pair of shorts. Cool

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:15:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 10/12/2010 16:18:11
@ OP: no sh**, Sherlock

@ Malcanis: Quad-link Tengus are pretty easy to fit, you just need a set of ECCM implants or low-grade Halos to make them properly unprobeable (edit: assuming you want it interdiction nullified and with a probing bonus; don't need the implants if you can live without the probes). Quad-link Lokis are tough and expensive and need to be boosting themselves with the -sig link, but doable, although probably more trouble than they're worth. You can't make an unprobeable quadlink Legion or Proteus, afaik.

@ The guy who was saying you're better off with an extra ship on grid: sometimes yes, sometimes no, but either way, the point is moot: dualboxing two on-grid ships requires paying a lot more attention to what's going on and is much harder than single-boxing; it also means you're putting your extra advantage on grid, in the firing line. A T3 booster requires no attention once the ECCM's on and the links are running, leaving you free to concentrate on your on-grid ships. They're completely different. Also, if you're kiting in a small gang, there are a number of situations where extra speed and 34 km points are entirely preferable to having an extra ship but forcing your whole gang to fight at 24-ish km.

Mueva
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:15:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Aquana Abyss
Edited by: Aquana Abyss on 10/12/2010 15:58:50
Thanks for the numbers but this is old news.

Edit: oh and you forgot the lol information link Proteus.


Very Happy Ganglink Proteus isn't really worth mentioning, is it? Very Happy


In a sense, yes, this is 'old news'.

But, I want to ask you: whenever did a huge game-rocker like the learning skillpoint reimbursement happen in the past? Whenever was there the opportunity to create a character capable of flying such a ship as this, literally overnight - bypassing the cumbersome and time consuming Charisma-based skill training?

As stated, I am aware that these ships are already popular. They are already common. My fear, is that the learning skillpoint reimbursement will make them prolific.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:18:00 - [14]
 

unprobable ganglink T3 ships? that seems quite the novel and refreshing idea.

I'll start working on it right now.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:20:00 - [15]
 

Prediction...
Laughing


Mueva
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:20:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Mueva on 10/12/2010 16:21:24
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
@ OP: no sh**, Sherlock


Please link me the thread which I'm playing broken record to? Again, my concern is largely tied to the learning skillpoint reimbursement and its effect on the use of such ships.

I know that these ships have been around and in use for a LONG TIME.

Hell, I've been using them for at least... 8 months? Longer? We are going to be seeing a lot more of these within the next month.


Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Prediction...
Laughing




Same deal brother Sad. Common now, ubiquitous next week.

Mueva
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:44:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
You can't make an unprobeable quadlink Legion or Proteus, afaik.




[Legion, Ganglinks]
Warded Radar Backup Cluster I
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor
Dread Guristas Co-Processor

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense
Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control
Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]

Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II

Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Defensive - Warfare Processor
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Legion Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier

Hardwiring - Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' AY-1
Armored Warfare Mindlink

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.10 16:55:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/12/2010 16:55:44
Nah, Leadership requires too much a SP investment for people to instatrain it up. Warfare Link Spec 5 (for running multiple gang mods) requires 1.6M SP by itself - and that's the overwhelming majority of what most people have trained. And that totally neglects the 2M SP per gang mod.

-Liang

Ed: I have 12M bombined SP in leadership. Its been a long haul, and nobody's gonna get there by virtue of SP reimbursements. ;-)

Mueva
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:05:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/12/2010 16:55:44
Nah, Leadership requires too much a SP investment for people to instatrain it up. Warfare Link Spec 5 (for running multiple gang mods) requires 1.6M SP by itself - and that's the overwhelming majority of what most people have trained. And that totally neglects the 2M SP per gang mod.

-Liang

Ed: I have 12M bombined SP in leadership. Its been a long haul, and nobody's gonna get there by virtue of SP reimbursements. ;-)


I was waiting for you to post. Perhaps you are correct.

However, no offense, but I have to ask you whether you have experienced firsthand how common these already are? I obviously cannot provide anything except anecdotal evidence / accounts, but I firmly believe that these ships are already becoming increasingly popular. A free 2m-4m boost in requirement for such an alt is a huge incentive.

I am sure my Bias is thinly disguised. I feel that these need a nerf of some form - perhaps they never should have existed. I suspect that in a month, a lot of whining will be happening.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:14:00 - [20]
 

Unprobable ganglink T3s are already very common, and in pretty much every organized pvp corp there are multiple of these alts available at any time.

Now, being able to cut short the training time (as Liang pointed out, you wont instantly jump into one unless the alt already has most of the relevant skills anyway) for these might, if anything, equalize the situation a bit for the have-nots. Everyone else has their leadership alts trained up for them for a long time now.


Now, for a more realistic prediction, I'd say we'll see a sharp increase of things that are very niche and usually annoying to train for, like the covert cyno fields.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:23:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/12/2010 17:24:26
Originally by: Mueva

However, no offense, but I have to ask you whether you have experienced firsthand how common these already are?


Of course I have. Its why I'm considering putting my SP into Command Ships 5 instead.

-Liang

Ed: I think my point is that the SP reimbursement won't get people all the way there. There's a lot of training left even for max SP pilots.

Derekian
Percone
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:49:00 - [22]
 

so like.

instead of like

FOTM drake...

and like..

FOTM scimitars and basilisks...

like...

now we are like...

have to fight like...

a fleet of hundreds of like...

unprobe-able, cloaky, immune to interdiction bubbles, and agile T3's?

So like...whats wrong with that?..

like...its not like the drake fleets like...

have no ganglink support for the past few decades..

so like..


AHHH THIS is annoying. Ok. having t3 boosting is fine. at least instead of fighting 300 drakes, now you fight 299 drake and a cloaky t3. which isnt much different from before, cloaky unproby or not. The T3 with ganglinks arent gonna stop people using other ship, since only one is enough for every so much drakes.

Hence. its fine. I know its a blatant attempt to convince CCP to change unprobeable formula, but no. Find us with directional scanner please, as we sacrificed so much to be unprobeable.

Pharos Pharos
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:57:00 - [23]
 

First of all, for very small gangs (less than 4, perhaps), as mentioned, I'd rather have the enemy bringing a safe spotted t3 to the fight than a another dps ship, logistics, or falcon.

The other downside to these alts is that the t3 must be in system and get to a safe in the first place - in larger fights when you see that Loki come into system before a clearly skirmish based fleet, it's pretty easy to make the decision to dock up anything that can be kited. You almost always *know* when your committing to fighting a gang-linked fleet, since the time it takes the link ship to get in system and into a safe after a fight has started can vastly diminish its benefits.

And given that this is the case, unlike, say, falcons or blobs sitting in other systems or waiting to get bridged in, I think that while leadership alts will undoubtedly become more common, it's hardly a game-breaking scourge.

Grut
The Protei
Posted - 2010.12.10 17:57:00 - [24]
 

A simple fix is to make warfare links apply to same grid shippies only.

Instantly balances T3s with the now obsolete fleet commands.

But this comes with a danger of introducing more tactics into the game, which would be against CCPs core design philosophy.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.10 18:38:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Grut
A simple fix is to make warfare links apply to same grid shippies only. Instantly balances T3s with the now obsolete fleet commands.


No, it simply makes multi command link ships useless by virtue of the gang mods + coprocs taking up so much fittings. I'm not a fan of this solution.

-Liang

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.10 19:42:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Grut
A simple fix is to make warfare links apply to same grid shippies only. Instantly balances T3s with the now obsolete fleet commands.


No, it simply makes multi command link ships useless by virtue of the gang mods + coprocs taking up so much fittings. I'm not a fan of this solution.

-Liang
it might make multilink-able ships like the fleet commands more popular, while command T3's become usable as a small gang command platform.

it is debatable tho, since it would be the same as removing coprocs.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.10 19:52:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/12/2010 19:56:40
Originally by: Grimpak
it is debatable tho, since it would be the same as removing coprocs.


Exactly.

-Liang

Ed: Also, please remember it's a lot of skillpoints to be able to use them. Neutral

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.12.10 19:53:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Grut
A simple fix is to make warfare links apply to same grid shippies only. Instantly balances T3s with the now obsolete fleet commands.


No, it simply makes multi command link ships useless by virtue of the gang mods + coprocs taking up so much fittings. I'm not a fan of this solution.

-Liang

Well, that's not really a problem because the ability to stick a command ship in a POS and get magical bonuses transferred through the ether to a grid 20 AU away is only marginally less stupid and tiresome a game mechanic than is the situation with boosting T3s. If you want to run multiple links, you'd still be at liberty to bring multiple (fleet) command ships. That said, I wouldn't object at all to having the fitting requirements of ganglinks or the fitting room available on (fleet) command ships adjusted in tandem with a nerf of unprobeable fleet boosters, especially since the game is no longer subject to the limitation that the only way to restrict certain modules to specific ship classes is to give those modules impossible fitting requirements and then give the relevant ships a 99% reduction in requirements to fit those mods.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.10 19:58:00 - [29]
 

Has it taken you this long to realize!?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.10 20:06:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/12/2010 20:15:21
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus

Well, that's not really a problem because the ability to stick a command ship in a POS and get magical bonuses transferred through the ether to a grid 20 AU away is only marginally less stupid and tiresome a game mechanic than is the situation with boosting T3s. If you want to run multiple links, you'd still be at liberty to bring multiple (fleet) command ships. That said, I wouldn't object at all to having the fitting requirements of ganglinks or the fitting room available on (fleet) command ships adjusted in tandem with a nerf of unprobeable fleet boosters, especially since the game is no longer subject to the limitation that the only way to restrict certain modules to specific ship classes is to give those modules impossible fitting requirements and then give the relevant ships a 99% reduction in requirements to fit those mods.


Your problem is unprobeable command ships. Try not to confuse the issues. Also, it's hardly "magical" - even conceptually. It's simply bringing more/better computers to the fight. Whether these computers are remote or on grid is really immaterial - especially given the instantaneous communication portrayed in Eve -- all the way from Amarr to the very edges of space. Rolling Eyes

-Liang


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