| Author |
Topic |
AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services |
Posted - 2010.12.07 16:47:00 - [ 1]
Trading in Eve is like writing an essay for a class.
First, you need to know how many pages (AKA how much ISK to start up)
If you're just gonna 0.01ISK in Jita you should count on as little as 5000 ISK to start off. It's true, you can make a profit even at this level. At this level, you should look into low cost, low return, but high volume merchandise (this means ammunition, t1 modules, and even some common ores).
Second, you need to know the language (AKA what should i buy/sell)
Think about this. You wouldn't turn in an English-written essay to a Spanish course. Same thing can be said for trading. If you're gonna be trading in a low sec staging outpost for the Caldari Faction Militia, why would you buy and sell Minmatar ships?
*General Idea (for Jita)*
If you have 5k ISK or so - Invest in missile/railgun rounds along with the weapon systems.
If you have 50k ISK or so - Standard caldari ship fittings (shield extenders/shield boosters/resistance fields/ballistic control units).You may also invest in some t1 damage controls and even some of the meta versions (most are at 100k or less in buy orders right now)
If you have 500k ISK or so - Standard Caldari frigates (kestrel/heron/griffin) along with some of the weapon systems these use (rockets/railguns/standard missile launchers/T1 ECM jammers)
If you have 5m or so - Standard Caldari Cruisers (Caracal/Blackbird/Moa) - these are the bread and butter of cheap PvP. Invest in the weapon systems (heavy missiles, railguns and ECM jammers) along with the tanking methods (damage controls/ resistance fields)
If you have 50m or so - Here you have a hard choice. You can either expand into Battlecruisers (Drake mainly) or continue into Battleships (Scorpion is around 50m) along with their respective weapon systems (Heavy Missiles/ ECM). By this point modules should be all t2. There is however a 3rd choice, you can always move into t2 frigates (covert ops/assault frigates) with their relevant modules (siege launchers/bomb launchers/t2 weapons for the assault frigates)
If you have reached the 500m ISK mark, you should have a rough idea of where you want to branch out to. Keep some of your ISK in some of the past investments because having ISK placed in damage control 2s or a good reliable module is never a bad idea.
The last and final part of writing an essay is to make your essay get the A grade. We all know that people hate repetition. If you start off an essay with "My essay is about..." and it's the 7th one that professor has read, they're gonna be less inclined to give you a good grade. For this same reason, you need a plan of attack. If you're just gonna be doing the 0.01 ISK trade, expect to find yourself glued to your monitor all day. If you want to make a little less profit but still get the ISK, don't be afraid to show off.
At heart, most 0.01 ISK traders base off their profits off the difference between the sell and buy prices. For this reason if someone undercuts you by 0.01ISK, you should always be happy to change your order above his but for at least a 5 to 10 ISK difference. If they do it again, increase the buy order price by 50 ISK and 500 for the 3rd time. The point is not to make a lot of profit at this point but more to show you mean business. As the buy and sell orders get closer, they will quickly bail at this point. This is where you can dominate an entire market by making just a few quick jumps in sell orders. Keep in mind, there might be a module/item where noone will bail and they'll instead let you be the high buy order, hoping your order runs out and they can get in the action.
And then my Auntie got scared and sent me all the way to Bel-Air. |
Deanne Sheriff
Gallente
Big Japan |
Posted - 2010.12.07 18:54:00 - [ 2]
+5 |
Madame Gorgeous |
Posted - 2010.12.07 20:25:00 - [ 3]
A-Grade! you have my vote.  Originally by: AtheistOfFail
If you have 5m or so - Standard Caldari Cruisers (Caracal/Blackbird/Moa) - these are the bread and butter of cheap PvP. Invest in the weapon systems (heavy missiles, railguns and ECM jammers) along with the tanking methods (damage controls/ resistance fields)
If you have 50m or so - Here you have a hard choice. You can either expand into Battlecruisers (Drake mainly) or continue into Battleships (Scorpion is around 50m) along with their respective weapon systems (Heavy Missiles/ ECM). By this point modules should be all t2. There is however a 3rd choice, you can always move into t2 frigates (covert ops/assault frigates) with their relevant modules (siege launchers/bomb launchers/t2 weapons for the assault frigates)
Don't forget implants. And also location. If you branch out from jita know your markets. Something simple as warp core stabilizers can be rather profitable at the right location. |
Gabe Macleod |
Posted - 2010.12.07 20:41:00 - [ 4]
Something I've always struggled with, when it comes to doing research on what items sell in which area, is how to gather data on which items sell. The tool tables the market gives you only tells the number of items moved in the entire region! It seems ridiculous that you can't tell the number of items moved in a single station. Especially considering this is so far into the future. I mean even now we can tell how many items a certain city or, to get even smaller, store sells in product. Just an annoyance I have that really bothers me about trading. |
rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly |
Posted - 2010.12.07 22:31:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Madame Gorgeous
Something simple as warp core stabilizers can be rather profitable at the right location.
If you think about it logically, your statement makes no sense at all. Your insinuating that if you put warp core stabilizers at a specific location then they will be profitable. Well, that location must not be a trade hub because that is the obvious place. So where is it? Low sec? 0.0? Think about that for more then 2 seconds. Who flies to 0.0/low sec and doesn't have a warp core stabilizer already fitted? And how many people who live in 0.0/low sec actually use warp core stabilizers? Your right about location, but warp core stabs is a horrible example. Instead use Cap Booster 800s. |
Lederstrumpf |
Posted - 2010.12.07 23:36:00 - [ 6]
If you have 2+m ISK: Start a temporary salvaging career. Hookup with some folks doing lvl3/lvl4 mission runs, be their scrapyard dog, pay them 50+% of salvaged stuff for allowing you to salvage... there are times where not using the market is the best market decision out there. lol |
Serene Python |
Posted - 2010.12.08 01:56:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: AtheistOfFail
And then my Auntie got scared and sent me all the way to Bel-Air.
"I got in one little fight and my mom got scared And said 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air' " FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- Aside from that... Nice post |
Clown Pron |
Posted - 2010.12.08 02:01:00 - [ 8]
Military expert are calling this...oh wait, where ARE the military experts? |
AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services |
Posted - 2010.12.08 02:05:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 08/12/2010 07:09:16 Originally by: Clown Pron
Military expert are calling this...oh wait, where ARE the military experts?
That was just 2 posts. And it's the usual AoF way of drawing attention to a Post. This was just some random musings about the market i discovered today (went from 5K ISK to 5M ISK on an alt) Originally by: Madame Gorgeous
Don't forget about implants!
Oh yea, i love head metal. You can invest into that too. |
Jun Lin |
Posted - 2010.12.08 11:38:00 - [ 10]
nice one ...
only the part with the market domination trough fast increase of buy order prices (or lower sell orders dunno if you meant that too), i feel kinda like you forgot to mention the risks.
as long as you can't guarante that you will be able to sell at least most of the bought items you will make a loss ... especially if you don't stop early enough and have the people switch over to fullfill your order (for fast profit)
the 0.1 isk games suck and you can try to manipulate/kick out your competition but have to keep in mind that you could also lose quite some isk's that way
i wouldn't suggest such games until you have at least several billion isks to back you up. (and give you the chance to keep you price game up for some time)
|
Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
|
Posted - 2010.12.08 12:22:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Gabe Macleod
Something I've always struggled with, when it comes to doing research on what items sell in which area, is how to gather data on which items sell. The tool tables the market gives you only tells the number of items moved in the entire region! It seems ridiculous that you can't tell the number of items moved in a single station. Especially considering this is so far into the future. I mean even now we can tell how many items a certain city or, to get even smaller, store sells in product. Just an annoyance I have that really bothers me about trading.
Because nobody, including CCP, is going to do your market research for you. Put stuff up for buy/sale, watch it buy/sell or not, record the activity, analyze said activity to determine tempo, flow and rate of change. |
Fred Barbossa
Free Mineral Collective |
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:06:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: rain9441
Originally by: Madame Gorgeous
Something simple as warp core stabilizers can be rather profitable at the right location.
If you think about it logically, your statement makes no sense at all.
I don't think you understand logic at all. Selling item + right location= profit your post: BUT WHERE, I refuse to sell it in any of the three places I came up with. |
AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services |
Posted - 2010.12.08 17:52:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: Jun Lin
nice one ...
only the part with the market domination trough fast increase of buy order prices (or lower sell orders dunno if you meant that too), i feel kinda like you forgot to mention the risks.
as long as you can't guarante that you will be able to sell at least most of the bought items you will make a loss ... especially if you don't stop early enough and have the people switch over to fullfill your order (for fast profit)
the 0.1 isk games suck and you can try to manipulate/kick out your competition but have to keep in mind that you could also lose quite some isk's that way
i wouldn't suggest such games until you have at least several billion isks to back you up. (and give you the chance to keep you price game up for some time)
I didn't say market domination, just saying not to play the 0.01ISK just because you have to. I raised up the T1 invuln price by 500 ISK on the buy orders and now i'm the top buy order. This is just an example. It's designed to keep others that are just in it to 0.01ISK at bay. Since i only buy small amounts (20 to 30) then they usually leave me be and catch the orders that fall through after i get mine  |
PureMurder |
Posted - 2010.12.08 21:16:00 - [ 14]
Edited by: PureMurder on 08/12/2010 21:19:35
. |
Jack Abramof |
Posted - 2010.12.09 02:09:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: AtheistOfFail
At heart, most 0.01 ISK traders base off their profits off the difference between the sell and buy prices. For this reason if someone undercuts you by 0.01ISK, you should always be happy to change your order above his but for at least a 5 to 10 ISK difference. If they do it again, increase the buy order price by 50 ISK and 500 for the 3rd time. The point is not to make a lot of profit at this point but more to show you mean business. As the buy and sell orders get closer, they will quickly bail at this point. This is where you can dominate an entire market by making just a few quick jumps in sell orders. Keep in mind, there might be a module/item where noone will bail and they'll instead let you be the high buy order, hoping your order runs out and they can get in the action.
And then my Auntie got scared and sent me all the way to Bel-Air.
I dont follow you here, why do you think you dominate a market when you need to sell 10 times more items to make the same profit than I do that you could do by playing the 0.01 isk game ? Its not like because you buy higher that you gonna have more people selling this item or that your competitor can not come back , it it ? or he can even take you to your own little game to **** you off and put an higher buy order If you take a 30 000 isk margin per item while i take 200 000 isk margin per item, that just means you need to sell more than 6 time the quantity to make the same profit and spend much more time collecting those item ; how can you see this as a winning situation ? |
AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services |
Posted - 2010.12.09 02:58:00 - [ 16]
Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 09/12/2010 02:59:10Hypothetical: We're both bidding on damage control I buy orders. It's currently at 6.5k with me leading. You 0.01 ISK bump and i bump the buy order to 6.6k. Cycle continues for a bit. Profits are now less than 100 ISK. Eventually you will either realize the profit isn't that good or you'll leave me alone since i'm only buying 2-4 items or you'll sell to my buy order. Either one is not bad if you can afford it. PS: it may not be the smartest thing but it is definitely very fun  |
Jack Abramof |
Posted - 2010.12.09 09:16:00 - [ 17]
Edited by: Jack Abramof on 09/12/2010 11:02:41 Originally by: AtheistOfFail
Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 09/12/2010 02:59:10
Hypothetical:
We're both bidding on damage control I buy orders.
It's currently at 6.5k with me leading.
You 0.01 ISK bump and i bump the buy order to 6.6k.
Cycle continues for a bit. Profits are now less than 100 ISK.
Eventually you will either realize the profit isn't that good or you'll leave me alone since i'm only buying 2-4 items or you'll sell to my buy order. Either one is not bad if you can afford it.
PS: it may not be the smartest thing but it is definitely very fun
While I understand what you re saying, I , personnaly play the market to make a decent sum of money on each order I put, I dont do it for the satisfaction to be on the top of the list with terrible margin. The way I see it , is if you reduce your margin very much on the buy order to kick another guy, you re gonna have to get a lot of items to make a profit. Now when you re gonna put a sell order with 300 or 400 items with low margin, you re gonna have even to compete on the sell orders with another guy who think like you and have 500 same items to sell. If that guy keep dropping his 500 sell order items price all the time, your only chance to sell those items is either to follow him and reduce even more your margin or let your orders for god knows long at a fixed price , till all people below you sold their stuff. Personnally I buy items very low , take a good margin then I goto Jita and look at the spread between sell/buy, if the spread is low, I sell directly to buy orders ( and I make good money since Ive got already a 100% margin) , i only put a sell order on valuable items where the spread is quite big. That way, I ve got always quick cash and dont have to wait for money to come back |
Jun Lin |
Posted - 2010.12.09 10:26:00 - [ 18]
sry but your "strategy" of overbidding will not work
like me said before people will just 0.01 isk your order or just sell their stuff to you
and no matther what you will ruin yourself any potential profit
it can work in places with low competition but there you can hardly sell anything at all anyways (0.0 is the big exception)
In market hubs you will always lose money doing this
|
Yakiv Petrov
Minmatar |
Posted - 2010.12.09 11:44:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Jun Lin
people will just 0.01 isk your order or just sell their stuff to you
If they sell, his order is filled, which is exactly what he wants Quote:
and no matther what you will ruin yourself any potential profit
He won't raise his order above the limit where he makes no profit. So he gets the items, still gets profit, and saves time waiting for regular sellers to fill the order. Doesn't sound ruinous to me. |
Lederstrumpf |
Posted - 2010.12.09 12:09:00 - [ 20]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 09/12/2010 12:12:05 Originally by: Jun Lin
sry but your "strategy" of overbidding will not work
like me said before people will just 0.01 isk your order or just sell their stuff to you
and no matther what you will ruin yourself any potential profit
Reread what AoF wrote: "The point is not to make a lot of profit AT THIS POINT but more to show you mean business." And ask yourself again: When is it really worth to try to manipulate markets? When you have control _and_ have bought sufficient stock cheap in advance! Because then your stock value is raising if enough other people overbid you on buy order side: As long as you are "secure" to sell off your stock at any time with a profit, temporarily "losing" some pocket change along the "Let's drive prices upwards"-spiral (while keeping opponents out of that segment) is a perfectly sane investment. Or again in other words: If your total stock value increases by a higher amount than you have to invest during manipulation, then it's worth it. And exactly here's the problem with manipulation: What if suddenly another seller comes up out of the dark, dumping his big stock on market, cashing in, crashing it? Manipulation seems risk free only if you're a monopolist... and it takes lots of experience and ISK to become a "quasi monopolist" for most of the stuff in EVE... so manipulating the manipulator might be the real game at heart. Rule of thumb: If average price keeps steadily rising over time, yet there's near no spread between buy and sell orders... |
Caldariftw123 |
Posted - 2010.12.09 12:55:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Lederstrumpf
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 09/12/2010 12:12:05
Originally by: Jun Lin
sry but your "strategy" of overbidding will not work
like me said before people will just 0.01 isk your order or just sell their stuff to you
and no matther what you will ruin yourself any potential profit
Reread what AoF wrote: "The point is not to make a lot of profit AT THIS POINT but more to show you mean business."
.. Except he's trying to show he 'means business' with an order of a few, against some guy who has invested millions or billions say in an item to trade, and who has a much more vested interest in driving the competition out. Deterring small investors even at the expense of a temporary decrease in profits will reduce the number of people that say "I tried trading for the first time, just a few items, but it was profitable! Next time I'll go in with more items." |
Cuddles TheHyena |
Posted - 2010.12.09 16:31:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: rain9441
Originally by: Madame Gorgeous
Something simple as warp core stabilizers can be rather profitable at the right location.
Who flies to 0.0/low sec and doesn't have a warp core stabilizer already fitted? And how many people who live in 0.0/low sec actually use warp core stabilizers?
In low sec, people who just lost their ships and want out, or people who are camped into a station or system and want a chance to escape will buy warp stabs. I used to purchase cheap stabs and sprinkle them around low sec at 500k a piece. They didn't sell quickly, but they DID sell. |
AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services |
Posted - 2010.12.09 16:56:00 - [ 23]
|
Ayaska Shran |
Posted - 2010.12.09 20:16:00 - [ 24]
I disagree with the whole raising by a large amount to deter 0.01 bids. That doesn't work. At least on anyone with a brain.
Unless you raise/lower your bid to a point that there is no profit (less than 2% between buy/sell price) then I will always 0.01 if I am competing in that market. Why would I not. There is profit to be made and the way to maximize the profit is to change the bid by the smallest amount possible.
If you do bring the price to non-profitability for me, then it will be unprofitable to you as well. You will not deter a serious trader with nonsense. Trading is about maximizing profit, and I'm not sure how such a stunt would accomplish that.
|
AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services |
Posted - 2010.12.09 20:22:00 - [ 25]
Originally by: Ayaska Shran
I disagree with the whole raising by a large amount to deter 0.01 bids. That doesn't work. At least on anyone with a brain.
Unless you raise/lower your bid to a point that there is no profit (less than 2% between buy/sell price) then I will always 0.01 if I am competing in that market. Why would I not. There is profit to be made and the way to maximize the profit is to change the bid by the smallest amount possible.
If you do bring the price to non-profitability for me, then it will be unprofitable to you as well. You will not deter a serious trader with nonsense. Trading is about maximizing profit, and I'm not sure how such a stunt would accomplish that.
Anyone with sense will think "Why should i keep my ISK tied up in this item that has a 2% profit as opposed to this other one that has 10% profit and has the same trading volume?" It's an easy way to get people to disengage off a particular item at least for a bit. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE |
Posted - 2010.12.09 20:27:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: rain9441
Originally by: Madame Gorgeous
Something simple as warp core stabilizers can be rather profitable at the right location.
If you think about it logically, your statement makes no sense at all. Your insinuating that if you put warp core stabilizers at a specific location then they will be profitable. Well, that location must not be a trade hub because that is the obvious place. So where is it?
Low sec?
0.0?
Think about that for more then 2 seconds. Who flies to 0.0/low sec and doesn't have a warp core stabilizer already fitted? And how many people who live in 0.0/low sec actually use warp core stabilizers?
Your right about location, but warp core stabs is a horrible example. Instead use Cap Booster 800s.
I've seen a bunch of people run into lowsec without stabs, dock up, realize they are camped in and then buy some super over priced stabs. |
AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services |
Posted - 2010.12.14 22:38:00 - [ 27]
And a little bump for good measure. |
KtoJest
Minmatar
Silkroad Partners |
Posted - 2010.12.15 08:59:00 - [ 28]
bump |
Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Elder Tribes
|
Posted - 2010.12.15 20:34:00 - [ 29]
Edited by: Corcyrus Endymion on 15/12/2010 20:35:13
Why bump?
I know this is a bump in and of itself, but I'm genuinely curious as to why people are bumping this thread that has basically ended. And not on an unanswered question.
|
AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services |
Posted - 2010.12.15 21:21:00 - [ 30]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
Edited by: Corcyrus Endymion on 15/12/2010 20:35:13
Why bump?
I know this is a bump in and of itself, but I'm genuinely curious as to why people are bumping this thread that has basically ended. And not on an unanswered question.
BECAUSE I BACKTRACED IT! THE CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME! /me thinks isn't gonna end well. |
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