| Author |
Topic |
Scroto Baggins
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2005.01.12 23:38:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: Scroto Baggins on 12/01/2005 23:51:18Say I wanted to fly from Kisogo State War Academy to Urlen Stargate, which are 16.87 AU apart, but without going into warp... so... 1AU = 149,598,000,000meters 149598000000 x 16.87 = 2523718260000 meters Now, lets say I'm in your average shuttle and can fly at a max of 500m/s 2523718260000 / 500 = 5047436520 seconds 5047436520 sec = 160 years, 19 days, 9 hours, 42 minutes My question is, does the game even keep track of my exact location in space? Would it even be possible to fly some small part of this distance? This demonstration also illustrates that our ships are too slow.  It'd be nice if non-warp flight was an option. I mean, it only took NASA some 30 years or so to get Voyager to the edge of our solar system, and it doesn't have any warp drives at all. |
Evad jr |
Posted - 2005.01.13 00:34:00 - [ 2]
I have thought about this myself and agree a lot of ships move too slow but dont forget there are upgrades available - even if they just give you a boost and not long-term speed. Really - warping allows you to get everywhere you need to - even if its in the middle of nowhere. There is no point to "flying for 6 months" to get to some isolated place for whatever reason. You could do it - the game supports it - but there isn't really any point.  |
Droidster |
Posted - 2005.01.13 02:20:00 - [ 3]
You have uncovered one of (many) violations of physics in EVE. In the real universe space has no friction so when you apply force you accelerate indefinitely. In EVE there is friction in space (!) so not only do you not accelerate uniformly, but even though your engine is running you can reach a "top speed" and stop accelerating entirely. Also, if you turn off an engine (like an afterburner) you slow down !!! like you were driving a car or something.  |
Scerenity
Gallente
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.01.13 07:39:00 - [ 4]
 Quote:
In EVE there is friction in space (!) so not only do you not accelerate uniformly, but even though your engine is running you can reach a "top speed" and stop accelerating entirely. Also, if you turn off an engine (like an afterburner) you slow down !!! like you were driving a car or something.
This isn't the cause of "friction". The reason for your ship doing this has been explained before . |
Scroto Baggins
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2005.01.13 14:07:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Scerenity
Quote:
In EVE there is friction in space (!) so not only do you not accelerate uniformly, but even though your engine is running you can reach a "top speed" and stop accelerating entirely. Also, if you turn off an engine (like an afterburner) you slow down !!! like you were driving a car or something.
This isn't the cause of "friction". The reason for your ship doing this has been explained before .
And this reason is? In a vacuum there is no friction. If you apply thrust in a direction you will accelerate to a velocity relative to the amount of force and the mass of the object being moved. F = ma is the equation. I think I learned that in like 10th grade physics... Either the EVE devs weren't paying attention in class, are purposely ignoring it for whatever gameplay reasons, or are having Eve take place in a region of space where basic Newtonian physics no longer apply. |
Scerenity
Gallente
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.01.13 14:20:00 - [ 6]
Quote:
..or are having Eve take place in a region of space where basic Newtonian physics no longer apply.
Got in in one (well, three actually I guess). This is Eve remember, they can say whatever they want. Or are you going to start telling me that Jove's don't really exist and hence shouldn't be in the game?  |
Qalten
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost |
Posted - 2005.01.13 17:13:00 - [ 7]
This actually touches on a topic I'm curious about. Are the areas of space (that you use jumpgates to go between) accessible by just flying? Say I want to fly from Cistuvaert to the next area over (can't remember the name. Aletia? something) without using the gate. Is this feasible? Or will my ship run into some sort of barrier that holds the Cistuvaert "area" ?
Just curious, really. Not that I'd want to wait a month to putter my ship across the boundry if I could.
|
Evad jr |
Posted - 2005.01.13 17:48:00 - [ 8]
*watches Serenity backpedal*  In any case, I don't think making EVE reflect real space dynamics would have added to the game and in some ways it would have made it more annoying. I don't want to actually have to "stop" my ship - I like the idea of turning off the engines and coasting to a stop. Realistic? Not even close. But it makes for better gameplay. There is enough micromanagement from CCP already  |
Scroto Baggins
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2005.01.13 18:20:00 - [ 9]
|
Scerenity
Gallente
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.01.13 19:02:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Qalten
This actually touches on a topic I'm curious about. Are the areas of space (that you use jumpgates to go between) accessible by just flying? Say I want to fly from Cistuvaert to the next area over (can't remember the name. Aletia? something) without using the gate. Is this feasible? Or will my ship run into some sort of barrier that holds the Cistuvaert "area" ?
Just curious, really. Not that I'd want to wait a month to putter my ship across the boundry if I could.
No you can't. You can fly as far as you want... but you'll never enter another solar system (this has to be initiated by the "Entering Space" sequence when you jump through a gate). You used to be able to bookmark a system via the map, you could then warp this bookmark but it's *alot* of AU away. I can't remember how far I got when I was bored, but about ~9000 AU I think. Then when you look at the map, the "You Are Here" shows you as being several regions away... maybe even right ontop of another systems dot. But you'll never be able to enter it . Hope that helps.. |
Qalten
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost |
Posted - 2005.01.13 19:12:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Scerenity
No you can't. You can fly as far as you want... but you'll never enter another solar system (this has to be initiated by the "Entering Space" sequence when you jump through a gate). You used to be able to bookmark a system via the map, you could then warp this bookmark but it's *alot* of AU away. I can't remember how far I got when I was bored, but about ~9000 AU I think. Then when you look at the map, the "You Are Here" shows you as being several regions away... maybe even right ontop of another systems dot. But you'll never be able to enter it . Hope that helps..
Yes, it does, thanks. (: So you can fly as long as you want but you'll never get there. Interesting. Is that considered "dead space"? I'm finding one of the interesting aspects of EVE is that there really isn't a publically viewable coordinate system..unless I haven't happened upon it yet? This would make sense if you just kept flying, there isn't any coordinate boundries to bounce you, you're just off in abstract space. |
F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2005.01.13 20:16:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Qalten
Originally by: Scerenity
No you can't. You can fly as far as you want... but you'll never enter another solar system (this has to be initiated by the "Entering Space" sequence when you jump through a gate). You used to be able to bookmark a system via the map, you could then warp this bookmark but it's *alot* of AU away. I can't remember how far I got when I was bored, but about ~9000 AU I think. Then when you look at the map, the "You Are Here" shows you as being several regions away... maybe even right ontop of another systems dot. But you'll never be able to enter it . Hope that helps..
Yes, it does, thanks. (: So you can fly as long as you want but you'll never get there. Interesting. Is that considered "dead space"?
I'm finding one of the interesting aspects of EVE is that there really isn't a publically viewable coordinate system..unless I haven't happened upon it yet? This would make sense if you just kept flying, there isn't any coordinate boundries to bounce you, you're just off in abstract space.
There sort of is one, but it's not really practical. Whenever you create a BM in space it shows the coordinates. So you could conceivably fly around a system to a bunch of locations and create BMs and record the coordinates, then plot them and extrapolate the rest. But this would take a lot of time, and probably not be very useful since you couldn't tell other players to meet you at "x,y,z" in a system. |
Evad jr |
Posted - 2005.01.13 22:00:00 - [ 13]
You missed my point Scroto - I don't want to stop my ship manually. I don't need more stuff to do  Besides, what you are suggesting is more realistic, but it causes a lot of game dynamic issues with equipment like afterburners and MW drives...... |
Spokrey |
Posted - 2005.01.14 06:43:00 - [ 14]
There should be some kind of scout ship, low in defense and attack but extremely fast. Like, 3000m/s or something |
Elixier
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2005.01.14 08:13:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Spokrey
There should be some kind of scout ship, low in defense and attack but extremely fast. Like, 3000m/s or something
It is possible to go even faster than that in an interceptor or a fast frig. |
Valen Manaan
Caldari
Ascendancy Inc.
|
Posted - 2005.01.14 09:26:00 - [ 16]
Edited by: Valen Manaan on 14/01/2005 09:30:38Well... In Homeworld, the physics where more or less based on "flying thrue water", why? Becasue using a realistic physics would use too much cpu power. I haven't read the other topics considering this, but even dough I'd love to have a more realistic gameplay, my guess is it would take considerable programming and too much effort to get those physics right, besides, its a mmorpg, not a simulator. (and it would probably crash my computer from the moment I exit the station ) I did notice a topic in which CCP stated that the use of correct physics on the movement of planets, colliding objects and orbiting paterns where to heavy for the server to run... Could be wrong... Just my 2 eurocents. |
Jalia Kovac
Placid Reborn
|
Posted - 2005.01.14 12:13:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Scroto Baggins
Actually, there's no reason it couldn't act the same way it does now. The difference would be that your engines would only be on when you are accelerating to your target speed. Once you reached that speed, the engines would shut off and you would coast until you changed direction or initiated a stop. Stopping would be the same as it is now, except that there would need to be reverse thrusters that would come on and they would fire until your speed reached zero. It would just be a display/animation issue, not a gameplay one.
CCP, if you are reading this, please implement this ASAP. It bothers me whenever I see this (which is every time I play).
Of course this opens up a whole other can of worms, such as the way you maneuver in space and make turns, how objects rotate, correcting tumbling etc. If you start down the realism path where do you stop? Even implementing what you means means one of two things: 1.) Ship models are redesigned and given engines mounted at the front end for braking (bet it will offend our aesthetic sensibilities more than satisfy our need for realism!) 2.) Ships rotate to face against the direction of motion at the halfway point of your journey (kinda makes it tough to fly manually really). Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a game modelled completely on "realistic" physics. I don't think that EVE should be that game.  |
Scroto Baggins
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2005.01.14 16:14:00 - [ 18]
A game doesn't have to internally model the exact physics of objects to be realistic. All I'm suggesting is that it's a little more believable. I realise it's just a game, but like I said, it does bother me a little when I see the ships in this game act like they're all underwater. I'm suggesting the game act like a space game, not a submarine sim. Additionally, it doesn't take a lot of CPU to roughly model physics. Flight sims do this all the time. The space sim Orbiter is popular with people who demand complete realism and I ran that on my PII. It's like playing a driving game, you don't expect it to be perfect, but more realism makes it more fun because it seems like you're actually driving a real car, running people over and knocking over signs. Same thing here. |
Qalten
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost |
Posted - 2005.01.14 16:29:00 - [ 19]
Perhaps each ship has thousands of small (ie, invisible) thruster ports all over the hull that all work in sync to slow a ship down after warp and allow it to move as it does!
*dusts hands now that that's settled* ;) |
BlueSmok
Minmatar
GalacTECH Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy |
Posted - 2005.01.14 17:19:00 - [ 20]
Thinking about this one day I came up with a possible reason why the ship movement is currently the way it is. My reasoning is that as opposed to real space our ships are able to enter warp space, what ever that may be. they can do this when the engine output is at greater than 70%. After that they can accelerate to light speeds, no matter what lies before them. I suggest it's this constant connection to warp space acts as resistance. So it is a necessary evil unless you wish to spend months traveling to the roid belt you wish to mine, and back. |
Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2005.01.14 18:30:00 - [ 21]
Edited by: Verone on 14/01/2005 18:30:06guys, it's a game, the devs could just say that your ship gets bombarded by tractor beams from the invisible ships of the potato people, and you'd be none the wiser... this is eve, just about nothing is the same as the universe we live in... for instance... there's "up" and "down" in eve... ever thought why all the station/gates are in one constant orientation no matter what sustem you go into, or what gate/station you warp to? none of the basic physics are remotely similar... and i like that... it's a game... and i think this will answer the question to how many people take notice. |
Dark Shikari2 |
Posted - 2005.01.14 19:00:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Verone
Edited by: Verone on 14/01/2005 18:30:06
guys, it's a game, the devs could just say that your ship gets bombarded by tractor beams from the invisible ships of the potato people, and you'd be none the wiser... this is eve, just about nothing is the same as the universe we live in...
for instance... there's "up" and "down" in eve... ever thought why all the station/gates are in one constant orientation no matter what sustem you go into, or what gate/station you warp to? none of the basic physics are remotely similar... and i like that...
it's a game... and i think this will answer the question to how many people take notice.
The stations/etc are in one constant orientation because they are all (usually) on the orbital plane, just like in real life. |
Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2005.01.14 19:20:00 - [ 23]
Edited by: Verone on 14/01/2005 19:20:30
the orbit of every planet in a system does not have to be on the same plane within a solar system, could be 5, 10, 50 degrees + or - out or whatever. space has 3 dimensions, and so an orbit could theoretically be any circiular movement around the system's central point, at any angle or speed. |
Scroto Baggins
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2005.01.15 21:46:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Verone
Edited by: Verone on 14/01/2005 18:30:06
guys, it's a game, the devs could just say that your ship gets bombarded by tractor beams from the invisible ships of the potato people, and you'd be none the wiser... this is eve, just about nothing is the same as the universe we live in...
for instance... there's "up" and "down" in eve... ever thought why all the station/gates are in one constant orientation no matter what sustem you go into, or what gate/station you warp to? none of the basic physics are remotely similar... and i like that...
it's a game... and i think this will answer the question to how many people take notice.
Eve is more than "just a game" to those of us who spend the majority of our free time playing it. I have to go to work, but I know a few guys that don't and spend pretty much all of their time playing... Back when I used to play EQ, it was even worse. I knew this one guy in college that had 3 computers on one desk, all playing EQ at the same time - his main char, and his grouped buffer/nuke/healers on follow... He was pretty powerful in EQ early on before mudflation got out of control, but eventually failed out from skipping class. People even meet their future wives/husbands on MMOs, so its obviously more than just a game... Even little design mistakes can make life less pleasant for some of us. |
Evad jr |
Posted - 2005.01.16 00:37:00 - [ 25]
Edited by: Evad jr on 16/01/2005 00:38:09
People get passionate about a lot of things - hobbies - events etc. People that discount that passion are being disrespectful often are pretty close-minded, as they are likely passionate about some other form of entertainment.
Having said that - There is nothing different about being a football fan or being an EVE fan. Both are just games, and neither will change the world. |
Prophesy |
Posted - 2005.01.24 21:38:00 - [ 26]
Edited by: Prophesy on 24/01/2005 21:42:02
I believe I have a solution to this...
I like to call it the "Star Trek"ian spacial physics:
The engines apply enough force for you to reach a speed, but not exceed it. This force is dictated by your: Engine size, power supply, mass, and most importantly your HULL
there IS friction in space, but its ever so slight you'd never notice (this is due to the gravitational pull of the nearby star or planets). So if you where traveling a billion zillion KPH your hull would be ripped apart due to the gravity pull. Also if you where traveling that fast and your ship had several thousand metric tons of weight behind it you would never be able to adjust your heading as the directional thrusters couldn't move your mass+volosity.
Thus the ship builders must do calculations and create a driving force for your ship that will be able to move you without: Ripping you apart, causeing "reckless driving", and forcing you to move in constant line due to the inability to have thrusters turn you.
I hope that makes sence.
*edit* one thing I forgot to mention: Warp drive enables us to move faster than normal speeds by creating the "Warp Field" around the ship, but even this is tentative as it could collapse at a speed greater then the reactor is able to compensate for. Thus the warp limitation. |
Arowe Telak
Caldari
Crimson Empire.
Nulli Secunda |
Posted - 2005.01.24 22:50:00 - [ 27]
Quote:
Edited by: Verone on 14/01/2005 19:20:30
the orbit of every planet in a system does not have to be on the same plane within a solar system, could be 5, 10, 50 degrees + or - out or whatever. space has 3 dimensions, and so an orbit could theoretically be any circiular movement around the system's central point, at any angle or speed.
That's technically true but in our system all the planets (except Pluto) orbit the sun pretty close to along its equatorial plane. Rings and moons orbit their planets around their equators, or pretty close to it (you dont see any moons in polar synchronis orbit, that's for sure), as well. In fact, stars orbit the center of their galaxies on its equatorial plane. So although you are right, not everything has to be along an even plane, it still makes some sense for most things to be oriented with an up and down in mind. The only things that probably shouldn't be on the same plane are stations, but even then, that's not that critical. Basically, in our solar system, there is an "up" and a "down," but it only holds true for or system. Each system has its own up and down, and its all relative. |
Evad jr |
Posted - 2005.01.25 16:11:00 - [ 28]
Gravitational pull is not friction. However, I still like your explanation |
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