| Author |
Topic |
Sabr Sheppard
Gallente
Brotherhood of Redemption
Seven Seas Alliance |
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:40:00 - [ 1171]
 Originally by: Au' Tena
@ CCP:
perhaps this question is answered already , but;
just one question wich isn't completely clear to me:
what about partly trained skills (points) at that point in time.
i think u revered to them as "the fidly bits". would it be right just to asume they will be also taken on board wit the already learned skillpoints?
Au'
p.s. interesting changes. found the learning skils on their own rather a drawback myself as a noob. if there is almost no difference in the learing curve result, there is no need to make it more complicated. good work.
"All skillpoints invested in learning skills will be reimbursed, including all the fiddly corner cases. If you have 2,012,692 SP in learning, you will find yourself down those skills, but with 2,012,692 skillpoints to redistribute." |
Ebisu Kami |
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:43:00 - [ 1172]
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 10:52:57 Originally by: Sotah Osodin
GAAAAAAAHHHH!!!
I just maxed out memory to train learning skills! EPIC FAIL!!! 
You'll get those points back. Just milk them while you have the chance and train more learning skills based on memory, so you'll have even more "interest-points" to spend on 14th ;) Originally by: Au' Tena
@ CCP:
perhaps this question is answered already , but;
just one question wich isn't completely clear to me:
what about partly trained skills (points) at that point in time.
i think u revered to them as "the fidly bits". would it be right just to asume they will be also taken on board wit the already learned skillpoints?
You'll get a full refund, that is of course including each and every single skillpoint in learning skills, even if the skill is only half done. Originally by: My Postman
Tears of anger in my eyes right now.
Thank you CCP Zulu, thank you CSM.
If count is correct there are 397 more skills to be removed, and i strongly suggest you thinking about a free titan for every noob.
I´m too outraged to find any words and my fingers are shaking while typing.
You have really no reason to assume this. Removing learning skills isn't dumbing the game down any tiny bit, ebcause its a no brainer to actually train them. The only question involved in learning or not learning was, how long do you intend to play the game. Not exactly something that needs intelligence or understanding the game at all. Comlpaining about removing them, because they dumb down the game, is just the same as if you were complaining that removing clicks from PI is goign to dumb downt he game. It simply is not true. |
CCP TomB
 |
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:50:00 - [ 1173]
Originally by: Sed Man
ccp are never gona read all this...
liar  |
Au' Tena
Gallente |
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:54:00 - [ 1174]
perhaps my question wasn't quit clear;
i got the part for partly trained skills (finished levels)
but what about the ones i was training at that moment and havent finished when they flip the switch.
..just wanted to make sure ( to max my redistributable skillpoints ..)
au'
|
Ebisu Kami |
Posted - 2010.11.26 10:55:00 - [ 1175]
Originally by: CCP TomB
Originally by: Sed Man
ccp are never gona read all this...
liar
I'm tempted to say: Fix the game even more then you guys currently do, instead of reading a ton of pointless complains. But I will not do that. Wait... D'oh... |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:01:00 - [ 1176]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 26/11/2010 11:01:45 Originally by: Au' Tena
perhaps my question wasn't quit clear;
i got the part for partly trained skills (finished levels)
but what about the ones i was training at that moment and havent finished when they flip the switch.
..just wanted to make sure ( to max my redistributable skillpoints ..)
au'
He got what you meant and the devblog answered it too. You get every single SP refunded, that you had in any of the learning skills at the time of the change. |
Ebisu Kami |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:03:00 - [ 1177]
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 11:06:48 Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Au' Tena
perhaps my question wasn't quit clear;
i got the part for partly trained skills (finished levels)
but what about the ones i was training at that moment and havent finished when they flip the switch.
..just wanted to make sure ( to max my redistributable skillpoints ..)
au'
He got what you meant and the devblog answered it too. You get every single SP refunded, that you had in any of the learnings skills at the time of the change.
Logically, you should switch your queue to something different then learning skills before the downtime though, so your queue is not empty, when the DT happens. However, as was stated several times before, you'll get each and every SP you earned before the routine starts to remove the skills, refunded. |
Sabr Sheppard
Gallente
Brotherhood of Redemption
Seven Seas Alliance |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:04:00 - [ 1178]
Edited by: Sabr Sheppard on 26/11/2010 11:04:12
A little off topic:
As CCP is apparently listening and someone else pointed out something that they'd like fixed, I'd like the overview to be fixed. As far as I can tell it is using AND operands instead of OR when dealing with the Types setting. Ex: If I have a tab for PvP and I have all ships selected and under types I have Show Outlaws, Corps / alliances at war with me, and low / terrible standing, I won't see someone in my overview who has a Global Criminal Countdown AND has a pos sec status. Know for a fact as the last war I was in with my previous corp, war targets did not show up in overview unless they had neg sec status. |
Ranka Mei
Caldari |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:09:00 - [ 1179]
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Logically, you should switch your queue to something different then learning skills before the downtime though, so your queue is not empty, when the DT happens. However, as was stated several times, before, you'll get each and every SP you earned before the routine starts to remove the skills.
As to what will happen with non-learning skills in queue, that's a good question. Typically, everything which (possibly) alters your rate of traning, like a clone-jump, requires you to either empty your queue or pause it first. I'm curious to learn what will happen this time. Do we need to manually (re)start our current skill in queue? Or it is all done automagically this time? Perhaps a dev can shed some light on this. |
Kylie Minogues
ISA Istarska Svemirska agencija |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:09:00 - [ 1180]
I've lost millions of isk (an many of you guys) spent in learning skills.
Will that be reimbursed?
CCP: NO.
I've spent months of my time (without queques, then), waiting, training, waiting some more,..to get that toon on her feet, learning.
Will my paid game time be reimbursed?
CCP: NOPE.
Will I have any benefits at all, with this change, training faster, reimbursement for time spent and wasted, now, for nothing?
CCP: NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER. ACTUALLY, YOUR TOON NOW WILL LEARN SLOWER.
Ok, aside than makin' this game 'tard friendly, and keeping all the noobs ingame easier, making CCP more rich, and older players poorer in the same time, I don't see any changes for the better.
Yeah I should not pay you for the next two months, 'cause I've lost at least that many months, wasted.
So, that's a proper reimbursement. Giving us back, what we already have.
Hooray. |
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:14:00 - [ 1181]
Originally by: Kylie Minogues
I've spent months of my time (without queques, then), waiting, training, waiting some more,..to get that toon on her feet, learning.
Will my paid game time be reimbursed?
CCP: NOPE YES.
Fixed. Quote:
Ok, aside than makin' this game 'tard friendly, and keeping all the noobs ingame easier, making CCP more rich, and older players poorer in the same time, I don't see any changes for the better.
Also fixed. And keeping the new players more easily is a change for the better, for everyone. |
Ranka Mei
Caldari |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:17:00 - [ 1182]
Originally by: Kylie Minogues
I've lost millions of isk (an many of you guys) spent in learning skills.
Will that be reimbursed?
CCP: NO.
I've spent months of my time (without queques, then), waiting, training, waiting some more,..to get that toon on her feet, learning.
Will my paid game time be reimbursed?
CCP: NOPE.
Will I have any benefits at all, with this change, training faster, reimbursement for time spent and wasted, now, for nothing?
CCP: NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER. ACTUALLY, YOUR TOON NOW WILL LEARN SLOWER.
Ok, aside than makin' this game 'tard friendly, and keeping all the noobs ingame easier, making CCP more rich, and older players poorer in the same time, I don't see any changes for the better.
Yeah I should not pay you for the next two months, 'cause I've lost at least that many months, wasted.
So, that's a proper reimbursement. Giving us back, what we already have.
Hooray.
Even I wouldn't go so far as to say you're getting nothing back. You're getting compensated -- precisely and fairly -- for all time lost training learning skills. In the form of getting 5+ mil sp deposited back to you. That's not nothing. I'd rather seen CCP added a wee multiplier too, so we'd wind up training at exactly 2772 sp/h again; but to say we're getting nothing back is just, well, silly. |
Tergiminius
Binary Star |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:19:00 - [ 1183]
This is good news for vets as well as newbs, regardless of the fact we lose the 72sp/hour because once you get over a couple year's old there's a heck of a lot of vets create alts for additional roles they can't support on their char like lab / factory slots and it's also a pain for them having to redo the stupid learning skills to get a new alt up to speed. |
Ebisu Kami |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:22:00 - [ 1184]
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 11:22:29 Originally by: Ranka Mei
As to what will happen with non-learning skills in queue, that's a good question. Typically, everything which (possibly) alters your rate of traning, like a clone-jump, requires you to either empty your queue or pause it first. I'm curious to learn what will happen this time. Do we need to manually (re)start our current skill in queue? Or it is all done automagically this time?
Perhaps a dev can shed some light on this.
Good question. I support your request. Originally by: Kylie Minogues
I've lost millions of isk (an many of you guys) spent in learning skills.
Will that be reimbursed?
CCP: NO.
So? Will we all die now? Earning that marginal amount of money takes how long? 2 level 4 missions? Originally by: Kylie Minogues
I've spent months of my time (without queques, then), waiting, training, waiting some more,..to get that toon on her feet, learning.
Will my paid game time be reimbursed?
CCP: NOPE.
Wrong. You'll get the time completely refunded and you'll keep the interest rates that you earned through your waiting on top of that. Originally by: Kylie Minogues
Will I have any benefits at all, with this change, training faster, reimbursement for time spent and wasted, now, for nothing?
CCP: NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER. ACTUALLY, YOUR TOON NOW WILL LEARN SLOWER.
You did all Vs? Even Presence V? If you did: You still didn't waste your time, since you benefited from the "interest" you got from your attribute points, you'll get a full refund of the SP invested and you'll learn at a new rate, that is only marginally slower then your old one. To specify: It will take full 8 years, until you reach the threshold, where you'd have more *effective skillpoints* with your old learnings instead of teh new ones. Getting yourself worked up over that is... not very reasonable. Originally by: Kylie Minogues
Ok, aside than makin' this game 'tard friendly, and keeping all the noobs ingame easier, making CCP more rich, and older players poorer in the same time, I don't see any changes for the better.
Removing learning skills, which added nothing to this game, is about as much dumbing this game down as removing clicks from PI is. In other words: Not at all. The only question regarding learning skills was: "How long do you expect to play this game?". Not something, that really sorts out idiots, is it? Originally by: Kylie Minogues
Yeah I should not pay you for the next two months, 'cause I've lost at least that many months, wasted.
Bull****. Originally by: Kylie Minogues
So, that's a proper reimbursement. Giving us back, what we already have.
Hooray.
You loose a marginal amount of potential SP/hour, which will take full 8 years for you, to actually make a difference and instead you get free learning 5/5 hardwired into your toon, you can keep the interest-SP you earned over other players and you'll get up to 5million SP to redistribute to where you see fit. For all matters and intends: You win. |
SALYNDRIIA |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:22:00 - [ 1185]
Edited by: SALYNDRIIA on 26/11/2010 11:27:02In all honesty I think this idea is garbage. Might as well call this World of Evecraft now. The training helped weed out the commited and fairly intelligent players from the dee-de-deez'. Who cares if this game isn't nub friendly... thats why I like it! I enjoy the fact you have to earn your way, the training is a bit long in some cases... but, that's what makes the game great. Hanging on the anticipation of the training and struggle to become an intergalactic power. You just destroyed that... way to go team.  |
Ebisu Kami |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:24:00 - [ 1186]
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 11:24:48 Originally by: SALYNDRIIA
In all honesty I think this idea is garbage. Might as well call this World of Evecraft now. The training helped weed out the commited and fairly intelligent players from from the dee-de-deez'. Who cares if this game isn't nub friendly... thats why I like it! I enjoy the fact you have to earn your way, the training is a bit long in some cases... but, that's what makes the game great. Hanging on the anticipation of the training and struggle to become an intergalactic power. You just destroyed that... way to go team.
Bull****. Learning skills added nothing beyond the question of: "How long do you think, you will play this game?". Not exactly a real mind-blowing question, don't you think? Those, who stumbled out of the game because of that question, would stumble out of this game for "How to undock?" just as easily and will continue to do so. |
Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:30:00 - [ 1187]
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Edited by: Ranka Mei on 26/11/2010 10:39:22
Never knew my post about opportunity cost would cause such a sh*tstorm. Why, it's really very simple, boys and girls. I'll explain it one last time.
The (max) 5,378,000 sp you get reimbursed is exactly that: you get it back. Nothing more. At some point in time you spent several months training learning skills: time you could have allocated to other skills, if you didn't have to train learning skills. That's the principle of opportunity cost. CCP is rightly giving you your accumulated sp back for the soon to be dyfunct set of skills.
Now, learning skills are meta-skills, as they actually help you train the other skills thereafter faster. This 'extra' benefit is, however, nullified, as the newbie, with virtually no learning skills, gets insta-warped to the equivalent of having all learning skills at lv 5 (like everyone else). So, CCP effectively 'owes' you precisely 5,378,000 sp, to compensate for your loss, and nothing more. So far so good.
I know, in this day and age of instant gratification, when people see 5,378,000 sp, they immediately go on the blink and think they got 'extra' sp. And it's a lot to distribute; and it's sure good to have. But it's not 'extra' (and it's not even enough to break even; but I'll get to that later). You are merely being compensated for having had to learn the learning skills earlier, whereas as the newbie gets to skip that time.
The reimbursement is to compensate for past losses, not future ones as well. So, applying the restituted sp towards the future loss of 72 sp/h as well, I dunno, that kinda makes you like the guy who spends the budget twice. So, the 8 years argument is completely bogus.
Either way you slice it, come December 14th, you'll be training at 72 sp/h slower than before. Yes, you're getting all your other learning stats bumped to lv 5 as well. And you could call that a perk, but... only if they weren't already at lv 5. So, a toon who is 'all 5' on the current learning skills now, effectively just loses time. And continually so, as whatever remap he'll do afterwards, the best speed he can ever train at, at any given time, is still only 2700 sp/h.
Those are the simple facts. And no amount of grandstanding, yelling or namecalling is gonna change those. Show me how I can go back to training at 2772 sp/h in the new scenario, and I'll recant everything I said.
P.S. Losing 72 sp/h is not the end of the world, far as I'm concerned. But don't try and sell me an 8-year profit when, in fact, I'm losing a bit on the deal.
It's not a profit. It's a NERF. But its a NERF you wont FEEL for EIGHT YEARS. Which is why most of us don't care. |
Ranka Mei
Caldari |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:35:00 - [ 1188]
Originally by: SALYNDRIIA
In all honesty I think this idea is garbage. Might as well call this World of Evecraft now. The training helped weed out the commited and fairly intelligent players from from the dee-de-deez'. Who cares if this game isn't nub friendly... thats why I like it! I enjoy the fact you have to earn your way, the training is a bit long in some cases... but, that's what makes the game great. Hanging on the anticipation of the training and struggle to become an intergalactic power. You just destroyed that... way to go team.
I very briefly thought along the same lines as you when I heard about this upcoming change. But, let's face it, distinguishing between those who make 'clever' learning skill choices, and those who do not, is just a rather temporary affair. In the end, everyone wants (needs) them pretty much all to be at lv 5. And since we all want and need them there, we might as well get rid of them collectively. That reasoning on CCP's part is actually quite sane. So I actually support getting rid of the learning skills. They were a constant thorn in CCP's eyes, and a source of much regret about ever having implemented them. There's plenty of skills left to separate the men from the boys, clever choices wise. |
Erdiere
Minmatar
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:40:00 - [ 1189]
|
Maranda Star |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:46:00 - [ 1190]
If you are complaining about this being for the "Instant Gratification Newbs" then in the same breath, ***** about the 72 SP/h nerf, you are being a hypocrite.
The ONLY valid argument is that there is a 72 SP/h nerf, and if you were all REALLY butt hurt about it, you should ask for a 10% decrease in ALL SP required of every skill (but that would also pander to the "Instant Gratification Newbs").
The 8 year thing is also bull****. That would only apply and make sense if they DOUBLED your SP return from the learning skills. There is NO SP PROFIT, and therefore nothing to make up the 72 SP/h loss.
Again the only leg anyone has to stand on is that people with perfect learning skills will not be getting 2772 SP/h .Every other argument is invalid.
|
SALYNDRIIA |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:47:00 - [ 1191]
|
Malmuerte |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:48:00 - [ 1192]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Gnulpie
I don't understand why people make such a fuzz about learning skills.
You do it, you are done with it. Fine.
Getting rid of them, dumbing down EVE to lure more players in. Oh well, as long as it only removing learning skills and not dumbing down other, more vital parts of EVE then I'm okay with that. But it is a slippery slope.
It is the nature of EVE that you need to make decisions with consequences. Gettings into destroyers fast NOW or waiting a bit and training learning skills to that you can do things faster LATER. Decisions, with consequences.
Just be careful not to dumb down too much!
the problem about learning skills is, they are just a nuisance, because it's pretty much mandatory to learn them to a relatively high level.[/quote}
I'm with Gnulpie. You start dummying down things and the game becomes less interesting. Why don't we just give everyone capital ships and be done with it? |
Ranka Mei
Caldari |
Posted - 2010.11.26 11:58:00 - [ 1193]
Originally by: Maranda Star
If you are complaining about this being for the "Instant Gratification Newbs" then in the same breath, ***** about the 72 SP/h nerf, you are being a hypocrite.
The ONLY valid argument is that there is a 72 SP/h nerf, and if you were all REALLY butt hurt about it, you should ask for a 10% decrease in ALL SP required of every skill (but that would also pander to the "Instant Gratification Newbs").
The 8 year thing is also bull****. That would only apply and make sense if they DOUBLED your SP return from the learning skills. There is NO SP PROFIT, and therefore nothing to make up the 72 SP/h loss.
Again the only leg anyone has to stand on is that people with perfect learning skills will not be getting 2772 SP/h .Every other argument is invalid.
If you read the last paragraph in my post, you could have read I'm actually not that hung-up on the 72 sp/h. Granted, I was a bit annoyed about it first; but, like I said, it's not a life-shattering event; and I kinda moved on (... at 72 sp/h less, LOL). I only came back on it a second time to lolz at the outlandish claims IN CAPS about 8 years worth of stuff -- and I just felt compelled to set a few folks straight on some basic economic principles, is all. Seriously, though, I'm ready to move on. Ultimately, it's CCP's game anyway, and there's nothing I can do about that 72 sp/h, regardless. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech |
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:11:00 - [ 1194]
Originally by: CCP TomB
Originally by: Sed Man
ccp are never gona read all this...
liar
OMG OMG OMG It is TomB!!! This is MADNESS! |
Vantlor
Gallente
Scrap Iron Flotilla
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:12:00 - [ 1195]
Originally by: Ish Maril
ARG !
Ok im a noob, but i just bought the whole rank 3 collection, almost 20M thrown away just yesterday ! (almost all my isk)
I am crying right now.
mail me ingame if you get this and I may be able to help you out :) ps. ONLY HIM U GREEDY **$@( |
Newbee |
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:15:00 - [ 1196]
I don't understand this change in the slightest ...
They are taking away a decision from players. People who thought in the long term and were more of the slow paced gameplay type would perhaps train the learnings to 5 and then happily train at max speed with +5 imps in empire or whatever. People who wanted to go directly into PVP etc. would not max learnings out but would get to ships faster even though they would sacrifice a few sp in the long run. So please tell me how it makes a game better if you take away decissions from players ...
Whats coming next? Omni Missiles that deal all damage types so all the caldari players don't have to choose anymore? =/ |
Ranka Mei
Caldari |
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:17:00 - [ 1197]
Originally by: Vantlor
Originally by: Ish Maril
ARG !
Ok im a noob, but i just bought the whole rank 3 collection, almost 20M thrown away just yesterday ! (almost all my isk)
I am crying right now.
mail me ingame if you get this and I may be able to help you out :)
ps. ONLY HIM U GREEDY **$@(
Also, if he didn't inject those skills yet, he will still get them reimbursed! :) |
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire |
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:24:00 - [ 1198]
@CCP
Can you please leave the learning skill entries in the database dumps. Removing them from the dumps will force us (me) to do all sorts of nasty changes that would be way more simple with the entries there and just set to published='0'.
/c |
Comander Brenni
Kraktech Industries |
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:24:00 - [ 1199]
Why do you think removing diversety from the game is improving it?
I've Desided to take the time to max the learing skills, because this gave me an edge, like lvl5 cruice missile spec. would... so why not give the noobs 5 mill skillpoints and a cruiser of chiose?...
|
Ebisu Kami |
Posted - 2010.11.26 12:31:00 - [ 1200]
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 26/11/2010 12:31:22 Originally by: Comander Brenni
Why do you think removing diversety from the game is improving it?
I've Desided to take the time to max the learing skills, because this gave me an edge, like lvl5 cruice missile spec. would... so why not give the noobs 5 mill skillpoints and a cruiser of chiose?...
There was simply no reason not to train them. That is no diversity. |
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