| Author |
Topic |
Scaramouche
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
|
Posted - 2005.02.03 07:16:00 - [ 361]
 Quote:
Yes but unfortunately this very little speed advantage totally works against you. Why because it greater amplifies your lack of tracking.
Now if we take your example by the minmatar pilot having to control the range. There is a little more involved than just keeping range at 75km so easily. Ok so you state that everyone has the same access to speed modules. This is not an option for a 1400mm using Tempest. You are sacrificing the ability to track and thus hit your target in order to achive enough speed to make your range an advantage. case in point. We warp in at each other at 60km(max distance) you now need to halt turn around and start running to get range. While you are doing this I am only having to move straight at you. Thus reducing range. Also my ship ( I should at this point state I have always only been thinking of a Tempest in either case, wheather with 1400s or dual 650s, not a mega or apoc.) I dont need to rely on other modules to help me attain hitting accuracy, so I have more versitility to mod my ship to close.
Hence the need for a warp-in point of 80-100klicks. Why do we need the 'Within 15KM' option?...it's a default range anyway! Take it away and have the 80 or 100KM option instead. Would suit all long range pilots. |
Rexy
DarkStar 1 |
Posted - 2005.02.03 07:37:00 - [ 362]
an additional problem is since we're more or less forced to shieldtank you cant lockdown the other dude.
but with 1400's gettting of enough damage seems to be a problem :/ |
ByBy Baby |
Posted - 2005.02.03 09:58:00 - [ 363]
Edited by: ByBy Baby on 03/02/2005 09:59:13
Have any one tried 1400 and 1200 after the patch. I have only use small and medium and I can say that even with the new damage upgrade the still performs poorly. The small ones on a destroyer do the “trick” but then I use TII and the ship gives 7.5% tracking bonus. The med projectiles still hits poorly and I can only imagine how the large ones will perform. The only way to go is to ether give projectiles better tracking or give minmatar ships tracking bonus.
Yes I do have the silly damage mod of 12 something with my guns, but what is the point of doing immense damage when you can’t hit the target?
|
Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.02.03 10:04:00 - [ 364]
Pat was taking on a Apoc in his Tempest last night at 60k, and the Apoc was matching his damage and he was armour tanking. Now, Pats tempest cant armour tank as it needs its low slots for a shed load of damage mods.
So.. if i get this straight, we can fight better at long range, but the longest range we can effectively fight at is 60k, and this can be closed down quite easily. And to keep up with a 'pocs damage we need to layer ourseves with tracking and damage mods so cant tank, whereas the poc can tank and still cause as much damage as us.
Im not a BS pilot, i fly little ships, but this is what I see. |
Zerbot Murega |
Posted - 2005.02.03 10:28:00 - [ 365]
and this was the un nerf or nerf of the projectiles ??? |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2005.02.03 11:05:00 - [ 366]
Edited by: Matthew on 03/02/2005 11:05:02 Originally by: Ricky WIlliams
Not true at all. The current warp in ranges are strongly tilted to the short range fighter. I would be much more inclined to agree with you if, as a Tempest pilot, I had an option to warp in at 80 or 100km.
Actually, I'd say the current warp-in ranges are best suited to medium-range fights. Sure, you have warp-in ranges down to 15km, but unless you have a cloaked scout marking the target, you're warping to a celestial object, not your target. So you're very unlikely to drop out of warp within that 15km of your target. Hence, just because there is a 15km warp-in option doesn't mean the short-range fighters can actually drop out of warp at short range from their target, especially as any clever pilot is going to move away from their initial warp-in point. Generally, given a set of pilots warping in at random warp-in ranges, they'll all get dumped out at a medium range. No short-range fighters complain that they generally have to do a bit of running to get to their optimal range, so I don't see why long-range fighters should mind having to do some running to get to theirs. Originally by: Evisicator
umm you contradict yourself here 1st you say lets take balanced guns, but yet you also say that the numbers are fudged.
No, the numbers for the guns are balanced in terms of DOT. What was fudged was the probability distribution of the slow-firing gun. Saying it gets 1 hit a minute at some point during each minute isn't quite accurate, but is a good approximation for that example. If you wanted to work out the full probability model, I suggest some quality time with a nice fat statistics textbook. Originally by: Evisicator
Yes but unfortunately this very little speed advantage totally works against you. Why because it greater amplifies your lack of tracking.
Only if you use your speed badly. You'll only lose tracking accuracy if you have velocity in a transverse direction (i.e. side to side reletive to your target). By definition, if you're trying to run away from someone approacing you, motion side-to-side is wasted motion. You should be flying directly away from your opponent to increase the range as fast as possible. In this situation, you will generate no transversal velocity through your motion, whether you're travelling at 10m/s or 1000m/s. And of course, your opponent will be trying to close the range as fast as possible, so will be flying straight towards you - hence no transversal at all. So once you're heading away from your opponent, tracking will be as good as if you were both standing still. When you reach your desired range, orbitting is a bad idea due to tracking, and the "keep at range" option tends to be too keen to stop your ship completely, so what I'd suggest is simply use the speed control to back off the speed to match that of your opponent. Your opponent is now in trouble - you're smacking him, but his guns don't have the range to meet you and he doesn't have the speed to close the gap. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Pat was taking on a Apoc in his Tempest last night at 60k, and the Apoc was matching his damage and he was armour tanking. Now, Pats tempest cant armour tank as it needs its low slots for a shed load of damage mods.
So.. if i get this straight, we can fight better at long range, but the longest range we can effectively fight at is 60k, and this can be closed down quite easily. And to keep up with a 'pocs damage we need to layer ourseves with tracking and damage mods so cant tank, whereas the poc can tank and still cause as much damage as us.
A few questions about this: What was limiting him to 60km range, speed or lock range? If it was lock range, I agree it needs increasing. But for now, have you tried a sensor booster instead of the tracking comp? With a longer lock range, you can fight further out, which gives you dual advantages of less tracking problems and less incoming damage - the second can be quite a significant effect vs the apoc, given the fast fall-off of lasers. Now, lets take the 1400mm as an example. Base tracking of 0.009. Now lets look at the 50% tracking accuracy point. At 60km, the target needs to get 540m/s transversal speed to push you down that far. Now, plug in a tracking comp II, to boost tracking to 0.0119. Now the 60km 50% transversal is 702m/s. If instead we plug in a sensor booster, 80km range becomes feasible. So if we take the base 0.009 tracking at 80km, we come out with a 50% transversal of 720m/s. Which means fitting the sensor booster and fighting at 80km is better for your tracking than using a tracking comp and fighting at 60km. Add to that the fact that a standard mega-pulse+radio apoc will be at optimal +4.4*falloff by then, so their damage is going to really suck. Would be very interested to hear of anyone who could do a practical test of this. |
Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.02.03 11:20:00 - [ 367]
You'd have to ask The Patriach about the specifics, but i would imagine it was 60 clicks as that is the maximum warp in point. The lasers have a great rof ( i think ) and his slots were all needed for sensor boosters and tracking + damage mods, whereas you would need speed mods to make a BS move anything like fast. And by the time its maneuvered and moving out, the battles half done.
The apoc can also mount these items as well, and therefore could out-perform the tempest at its own game, long range warfare. I think a couple of the guys took two snipests against a snipoc and only just managed to force it to retreat before one of the snipests was about to blow. (They also had to setup 100km bookmarks at the various gates, which is not possible alot of the time)
Which means, and this wouldnt surprise me at all now, that you might see lots of freedom fighter BS pilots in Apocs. Which is not a nice thought at all.
Again this is all taken from internal discussions in the UK forums. The pilots in question could give you a much better explanation. But it seems to me, that a tempest should be able to outperform a apoc at long range. And it cant.
Again, i could be wrong. |
ByBy Baby |
Posted - 2005.02.03 11:40:00 - [ 368]
The problem with projectiles is HOW they hit, and WHEN they hit. You can have a damage mod of 1000, but if you never hit proper or you don’t hit at all, it does not matter how much damage you would dish out if you where to hit. If CCP is worrying about projectiles would be so uber that apoc will use them, why not put the dam 3’rd bonus on minmatar ships. And the bonus would then be tracking. The amount of this bonus can be tweaked from 2% to what ever would work. And CCP, when you are making your calculation and compare damage, don’t use maxed out skills and only tempest that have already 2 damage bonus. Not all have maxed out skills when they start and the to want to hit something.  |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2005.02.03 11:53:00 - [ 369]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
You'd have to ask The Patriach about the specifics, but i would imagine it was 60 clicks as that is the maximum warp in point. The lasers have a great rof ( i think ) and his slots were all needed for sensor boosters and tracking + damage mods, whereas you would need speed mods to make a BS move anything like fast. And by the time its maneuvered and moving out, the battles half done.
The apoc can also mount these items as well, and therefore could out-perform the tempest at its own game, long range warfare.
Well, 60km would also make sense if they had no sensor boosters, as it's about the limit of a tempest's base lock range. And limiting yourself to the maximum warp-in range isn't very tactically astute - you are allowed to move after the fight begins As to it taking too long to maneuver and move out, I can only comment on my experience doing this with my apoc. I find I can easily get the apoc to do a 180 turn and power up to a respectable speed while I'm waiting for target lock. Once I've turned, it's purely down to top speed. Now, I know this is with an apoc, not a minmatar ship, but looking at the stats, the Tempest has higher top speed and lower mass, so should be able to do better than my apoc anyway. And both ships have to make sacrifices to mount speed-boost equipment - the loss of cap on an apoc from dropping a cap recharger and powering the AB deals a significant hit on the tank. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
I think a couple of the guys took two snipests against a snipoc and only just managed to force it to retreat before one of the snipests was about to blow. (They also had to setup 100km bookmarks at the various gates, which is not possible alot of the time)
Would be nice to know more details of the setups and tactics used here, though I appreciate you don't know. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Again this is all taken from internal discussions in the UK forums. The pilots in question could give you a much better explanation. But it seems to me, that a tempest should be able to outperform a apoc at long range. And it cant.
I'm going to get into this design problem a lot tonight, see if I can come up with some fittings to remedy that problem - though I won't have the skills to actually test them  |
Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
|
Posted - 2005.02.03 12:58:00 - [ 370]
nice, nice but! Instead of neutrons can you plz use ions/electrons. Cause there is no way in hell u r gonna have nuetrons on your ship and have a good support setup. |
The Patriarch
Dashavatara
Clownz'R'Us |
Posted - 2005.02.03 13:47:00 - [ 371]
HI 6x1400mm MED 3xTracking comp. II, 2xSensor Boosters (innitially intended for long range fighting, but the enemy keeps running from 100+ distance) Quote:
What was limiting him to 60km range, speed or lock range? If it was lock range, I agree it needs increasing. But for now, have you tried a sensor booster instead of the tracking comp? With a longer lock range, you can fight further out, which gives you dual advantages of less tracking problems and less incoming damage - the second can be quite a significant effect vs the apoc, given the fast fall-off of lasers.
I warped at 60 as it is the only opppurtunity the game gives me also 60K is optimal for the best damage dishing ammo “Titanium Sabbot” besides PP but then I need to be even more closer. However this opti distance is achieved with tracking comps. Intention was to inflict as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time. I agree with you on the longer warp in point, 100K with Lead L for instance, but then the damage output is more then decimated and victory from that point in a dogfight will not happen. Besides having bookmarks of 100K from each stargate and station is not an option. Quote:
Now, lets take the 1400mm as an example. Base tracking of 0.009. Now lets look at the 50% tracking accuracy point. At 60km, the target needs to get 540m/s transversal speed to push you down that far. Now, plug in a tracking comp II, to boost tracking to 0.0119. Now the 60km 50% transversal is 702m/s. If instead we plug in a sensor booster, 80km range becomes feasible. So if we take the base 0.009 tracking at 80km, we come out with a 50% transversal of 720m/s.
I totally agree with the above and can confirm succes from ranges 80-120Km. However main reason I use Tracking computers is to increase optimal damage. I am convinced the 1400MM are destructive for inties, frigates and cruisers but a Battleship dogfight meaning Projectile vs Lasers I think we should all agree that Lasers have.better tracking, better ROF, Better damage, quicker reload of lenses. Quote:
Which means fitting the sensor booster and fighting at 80km is better for your tracking than using a tracking comp and fighting at 60km. Add to that the fact that a standard mega-pulse+radio apoc will be at optimal +4.4*falloff by then, so their damage is going to really suck. Would be very interested to hear of anyone who could do a practical test of this.
Could do that but as long it is not a game feature to WARP AT 80KM or more u would need bookmarks as I mentioned before this is not an option for all systems. Besides that I fought armas at 80-90-100K and as soon as the enemy founds out he did less damage and near misses while u make perfect shots they will warp out and there u go, off course I would do the same. But imo its not a good comparisation………So this was another reason for me to warp in @60K, as long as u both dish out damage you want to stay and see who lasts longer. (speaking of dogfights) Fleet battles is a complete other thing……….U are nicely popping all small things from greater distance. Fighting battleships @60K with 1400mm is another thing, speed bonus? Well with 167m/s i wont make 80 clicks unless sacrificing a medslot. Which are the most popular Battleships in the game? |
Judus Prestly |
Posted - 2005.02.03 14:00:00 - [ 372]
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I agree with a lot of the complaints posted here. I think there should be greater warp-in options.
I just got a tempest not long ago. It isn't really tankable in any respect so I just went with 3 dam mod's and 3 tracking mods in the low slots, a tracking comp ii, a sensor booster, and a tracking inhibitor in the med's.
With Phase plasma In my 4 1400's and 1 1200, I can insta kill frigates from 28km to 65km..
I think the ship is great. However going up against a tanking BS, the tempest would probably lose.
This goes right along with the Minmatar background.. scrapmetal ships that warp in doing incrediable damage and warping out before the loose thier ships.. |
ByBy Baby |
Posted - 2005.02.03 14:33:00 - [ 373]
Yes, but you have forgotten that they don’t do incredible damage. There are others (geddons) that do it a lot better.
Can’t some dev people get in so we can have a chat with him?
I know that Hammer have said that they are making small tweaks here and there, but can you pleas respond if you think this tweak is good enough to make people use projectiles once again, or can we expect a couple more soon (not a other 6 month).
The only way to make projectiles better is to boost its tracking. And without messing up the balance it should be a ship bonus.
|
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2005.02.03 16:51:00 - [ 374]
Originally by: The Patriarch
I warped at 60 as it is the only opppurtunity the game gives me also 60K is optimal for the best damage dishing ammo “Titanium Sabbot” besides PP but then I need to be even more closer.
How much beyond optimal range can you go with that ammo before the damage tails off significantly? Originally by: The Patriarch
Besides having bookmarks of 100K from each stargate and station is not an option.
Agreed, I'd like to see 80km and 100km warp-in options, to help spread out the battlefield a bit. Originally by: The Patriarch
I totally agree with the above and can confirm succes from ranges 80-120Km. However main reason I use Tracking computers is to increase optimal damage. I am convinced the 1400MM are destructive for inties, frigates and cruisers but a Battleship dogfight meaning Projectile vs Lasers I think we should all agree that Lasers have.better tracking, better ROF, Better damage, quicker reload of lenses.
I agree lasers have better tracking, rof, and quicker reload. They do also have better DOT at their optimal range. The trick with fighting lasers is to take advantage of the fact that they are become completely useless very quickly if you drag them beyond their optimals. I've been bitten by that effect too many times not to take it seriously. Besides that I fought armas at 80-90-100K and as soon as the enemy founds out he did less damage and near misses while u make perfect shots they will warp out and there u go, off course I would do the same. But imo its not a good comparisation………So this was another reason for me to warp in @60K, as long as u both dish out damage you want to stay and see who lasts longer.
To be honest, with competent pilots unwilling to lose their ships, it's always going to be the case that a long-range fight will end up with someone warping out rather than popping. Yes, if you came in at 80-100km to me and I couldn't close the gap, I'd just warp. But if you came in at 60km, and it was a close fight, sure I'd stay for a bit, but if it looked like being a close fight, I'd be lining up to warp before you got anywhere near my structure. Any one on one BS fight between competent pilots with a sense of self-preservation that happens outside of warp scambler range should always end with one warping away, rather than popping. Unfortunately, I think it'll always be that way, as making scrambling modules with ranges 60km+ would cause all sorts of other problems. Originally by: The Patriarch
Fleet battles is a complete other thing……….U are nicely popping all small things from greater distance.
So minnie ships are hugely useful in fleet battles but not so good 1-on-1? If so, sounds like a trade-off there. Originally by: The Patriarch
Fighting battleships @60K with 1400mm is another thing, speed bonus? Well with 167m/s i wont make 80 clicks unless sacrificing a medslot.
Well, blasterthrons aren't going to close to their desired range without sacrificing a mid-slot either. I'd be interested to know just how much it hurts losing the third tracking comp for an AB Originally by: The Patriarch
Which are the most popular Battleships in the game?
Fair point, but minnies have got a bit better, though I agree they need some ship tweaks to follow the weapon tweak. But to be honest, I think the amarr ships are popular because it has pretty good no-brainer fittings, not because they are necessarily uber at everything. |
Sun Sliver
Minmatar
SEPTAGON TRANS-ILLUMINATI CORPORATION
|
Posted - 2005.02.03 17:00:00 - [ 375]
Edited by: Sun Sliver on 03/02/2005 17:25:17Well I'm gonna throw a 'nice job' bone in. I use 1400's, 800s, and 425s on tempest and typhoon. Below some 'in practice' results EDIT: this is based on NPC hunting The 1400s always were my favorite, nothing gets me excited like watching 1000s of dmg strip off a ship in one volley, even if it is low DOT :P -at 40-60km i was blasting angel cruisers apart in single volleys about 20% of the time (3:3 EMP:Fusion ammo). and got a decent ratio of wrecking including this nice beaut: 2005.02.03 04:56:54 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Arch Angel Commander, wrecking for 1683.6 damage.  Yes that is TECH 1 gun  Granted that is mostly structure so low resist overall  800s perform much more nicely, as do all autocannons. I'm not all up on DOT by the numbers but i figure i kill cruisers about 20-30% faster now and if conditions are right (and i load up track comps) i can even smack down the occasional inty (damn that makes me feel good - vengence for all those deadspace scrambling losses). Yes i know cruise missiles are easier and better, but then so is a fly swatter compared to chopsticks. |
Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.02.03 17:01:00 - [ 376]
Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 03/02/2005 17:01:20 Originally by: Matthew
Any one on one BS fight between competent pilots with a sense of self-preservation that happens outside of warp scambler range should always end with one warping away, rather than popping. Unfortunately, I think it'll always be that way, as making scrambling modules with ranges 60km+ would cause all sorts of other problems.
Well thats why inties are super handy now. Although BS lasers have rather scary tracking even when shooting inties up close. This should not be the case. A BS gun should stand no chance of hitting a speeding inty up close, its a bugger. Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: The Patriarch
Fleet battles is a complete other thing……….U are nicely popping all small things from greater distance.
So minnie ships are hugely useful in fleet battles but not so good 1-on-1? If so, sounds like a trade-off there.
hugely useful? Well, they can pop cruisers and frigates from long ranges, but again, u need that long range to be useful because at 60 clicks, the opposing BS will smear your tempests all over the place if they get the chance. And if your flyinh in a minnie fleet, you still need something to deal damage to them big shiny ships. Saying that a BS can kill cruisers and frigates is hardly what i would call a huge advantage im afraid. Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: The Patriarch
Which are the most popular Battleships in the game?
Fair point, but minnies have got a bit better, though I agree they need some ship tweaks to follow the weapon tweak. But to be honest, I think the amarr ships are popular because it has pretty good no-brainer fittings, not because they are necessarily uber at everything.
Well, there is also the fact that they deal the best damages at the standard warp in distances, and can do the best armour tank, which as we all know, is superior to sheild tanking. So they are just uber at damage and tanking. Oh, and tracking too. And pretty good at mining as well. In fact, what are they bad at? |
Balgore
XCC RnD Divison |
Posted - 2005.02.03 18:35:00 - [ 377]
Originally by: Matthew
Well, blasterthrons aren't going to close to their desired range without sacrificing a mid-slot either. I'd be interested to know just how much it hurts losing the third tracking comp for an AB
You can't fit an AB with 6 1400 and 1 t2 reactor control...not enough grid. And I'd like to see you tank with 2 med slots left after equipping 3 tracking computers. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2005.02.04 09:30:00 - [ 378]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Well thats why inties are super handy now. Although BS lasers have rather scary tracking even when shooting inties up close. This should not be the case. A BS gun should stand no chance of hitting a speeding inty up close, its a bugger.
Not sure how people are shooting inties up close with large lasers, unless: 1) The inty pilot is being silly and has stopped 2) The laser user has sacrificed any sort of tank for huge tracking mods. Even have trouble hitting fast cruisers if they get up real close  Would love to know what I'm missing if others are doing it so easily. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
hugely useful? Well, they can pop cruisers and frigates from long ranges, but again, u need that long range to be useful because at 60 clicks, the opposing BS will smear your tempests all over the place if they get the chance. And if your flyinh in a minnie fleet, you still need something to deal damage to them big shiny ships. Saying that a BS can kill cruisers and frigates is hardly what i would call a huge advantage im afraid.
Fair enough, a minnie-only fleet would be tricky. I tend to think in terms of mixed fleets, where I'd be using amarr as "infantry", doing high damage and tying up the enemy, caldari for EW support, and minnie for long-range sniping support. In this situation, the minnie's ability to insta-splat troublesome frigs and cruisers would be invaluable - it would let the "infantry" ships focus on doing battleship-level damage, and reduce the need for your own frigs and cruisers to combat the enemy's. Though I appreciate such tactics aren't what RP'ers would go for. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Well, there is also the fact that they deal the best damages at the standard warp in distances, and can do the best armour tank, which as we all know, is superior to sheild tanking.
So they are just uber at damage and tanking. Oh, and tracking too. And pretty good at mining as well.
In fact, what are they bad at?
Well, their huge dependance on cap means they're more vulnerable than most to nos/neuts. They're completely useless at EW. They're in the lower end of speed and higher end of mass, so they're more sluggish in maneuvering and straight-line motion. Add to that the fact that their damage breaks very quickly if the target manages to get out of "standard" ranges. There are many, many setups that can take out the supposedly "uber" amarr ships, as my corp mates delight in demonstrating on me at every possible oppourtunity! One other thing I'd like to point out: minnie ships seem to need to load up lots of slots with tracking stuff. To get the sort of scary uber-laser-tank amarr are famous for to run for more than a few seconds (and here I'm talking about enough time to chew through a standard battleships untanked HP), we need to load up every spare slot (usually all mids and several lows) with cap charging modules. I'd also like to point out that I agree minmatar ships need looking at, and probably need some tweaks to make them truly competitive. Also, I agree that they need some longer warp-in options to make long-range warfare truly viable. What I'm trying to do is find out how useful they can be made right now, and if there are some unexpected setups that could be more effective than they may appear. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2005.02.04 09:45:00 - [ 379]
Originally by: Balgore
Originally by: Matthew
Well, blasterthrons aren't going to close to their desired range without sacrificing a mid-slot either. I'd be interested to know just how much it hurts losing the third tracking comp for an AB
You can't fit an AB with 6 1400 and 1 t2 reactor control...not enough grid. And I'd like to see you tank with 2 med slots left after equipping 3 tracking computers.
I seem to remember that said blasterthron also has trouble mounting a full rack of neutron blasters without great sacrifice. Amarr would have similar problems fitting full spreads of megabeams or tachyons - and we all know the megapulse's range is an issue that needs addressing. And there are more ways to defend yourself than just tanking. Squeeze that AB on, and you can use your range as defence - there's no need for a huge tank if you stay outside the enemy's range. |
Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.02.04 10:56:00 - [ 380]
All good points Mathhew.
Your right, there not good at EW, currently thats the biggest weapon we have against them at the moment, but its hard to co-ordinate etc as im sure you are aware. Plus you need ships to actually break the tank once they are jammed. And in a similar sized fleet, its hard to get the EW and the damage together. Amarr can counter EW by putting backups in. Inties can make your range defecit zero, as well as cloaked ships scouting your long range position. Plus, you can simply warp out if you are being attacked from long range. Its a hard tactic to make viable as there are so many easy counters, as i see it, to them.
My point is really, that a Tempest should, by itself, be able too at long range outdamage and take down an apoc. At the moment it doesnt seem like it can (again im not a BS pilot) and this seems a bit nuts to me.
I dont like to winge, and i guess thats what im doing now. But i really wish our ships were the best at something. I would go for a far higher speed increase myself with tracking multiplier built into the ship.
You can make the HP even worse than it is, but if i can go fast, and hit fast (which is after all what our ships are meant to do) then i would be happy.
Maybe its just me, and i really shouldnt go on winging about this, but i get the feeling that minnie ships are in the 'dont really know what to do with' draw.
I mean, i can understand us being the underdogs of EVE, but i wouldnt mind being the best at something. you know? |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2005.02.04 12:02:00 - [ 381]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
All good points Mathhew.
Your right, there not good at EW, currently thats the biggest weapon we have against them at the moment, but its hard to co-ordinate etc as im sure you are aware. Plus you need ships to actually break the tank once they are jammed. And in a similar sized fleet, its hard to get the EW and the damage together.
Yep, agree with this, but in a fleet situation, it's not usually hard to focus fire to take out a tank - if anything the best thing is to just get everyone to fire at the tank - the quicker you can take it down, the less overall HP damage you have to do to kill it. Of course, fleet organisation is tricky at the best of times. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Amarr can counter EW by putting backups in.
Only at the cost of a significantly reduced tank, if I'm going to put in enough backups to guarantee not being jammed. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Inties can make your range defecit zero, as well as cloaked ships scouting your long range position.
Plus, you can simply warp out if you are being attacked from long range. Its a hard tactic to make viable as there are so many easy counters, as i see it, to them.
Inties can work for minmatar just as well as for amarr - They'd stop me warping while under your fire, and web me down so I'd never have a hope of closing the range. And cloaked ships can scout as well for you as for me. To be honest, targets warping out is a problem for all battleships - even with megapulse, scramber range is closer than I'd like to be, only blasters ranges really match well with scramblers. And battleships aren't exactly the quickest things to close in to scramble, even when speed-boosted. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
My point is really, that a Tempest should, by itself, be able too at long range outdamage and take down an apoc. At the moment it doesnt seem like it can (again im not a BS pilot) and this seems a bit nuts to me.
Well, I think it probably can, but only at ranges that are currently seen as unfeasible due to the warp-in range restrictions. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
I dont like to winge, and i guess thats what im doing now. But i really wish our ships were the best at something. I would go for a far higher speed increase myself with tracking multiplier built into the ship.
You can make the HP even worse than it is, but if i can go fast, and hit fast (which is after all what our ships are meant to do) then i would be happy.
Maybe its just me, and i really shouldnt go on winging about this, but i get the feeling that minnie ships are in the 'dont really know what to do with' draw.
The minmatar style of play is one that's hard to balance in any game, unfortunately, because it's so different from the "face off and slug each other" style of play, as seen in amarr most strongly. That slugging style is reletively easy to analyse, as it all boils down to damage in vs damage out. Hit-and-run, agile fighting techniques are harder to do that for, and the line is fairly thin between balance and uber-ness. Make them too fast and hard, and nothing else will have a way to deal with them. Don't give them enough and they'll be too vulnerable. We're seeing a form of this fine-line balance with interceptors right now. |
Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.02.04 12:33:00 - [ 382]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
All good points Mathhew.
Your right, there not good at EW, currently thats the biggest weapon we have against them at the moment, but its hard to co-ordinate etc as im sure you are aware. Plus you need ships to actually break the tank once they are jammed. And in a similar sized fleet, its hard to get the EW and the damage together.
Yep, agree with this, but in a fleet situation, it's not usually hard to focus fire to take out a tank - if anything the best thing is to just get everyone to fire at the tank - the quicker you can take it down, the less overall HP damage you have to do to kill it. Of course, fleet organisation is tricky at the best of times.
Yep, obviously that is what has been done in the fleet battles i have been in. But its hard to get right, and you need more ships than a simple tank and shoot enemy to get it right. And the ships dont need to have EW backups to stop getting jammed, just enough to ensure you cant jam too many of them :) Anyway, this is all part of the too and fro of fleet combat, and is part and parcel of the game, and what makes it fun. There is just alot of the view in minmatar circles that we get shafted alot. Which im sure is not deliberate as people think. I jsut think the ships need looking at, the bonuses on the ships need looking at (cyclone shield bonus?) along with the slot layouts. So that they make sense. I mean, taking the cyclone as an example. The ship cant sheild tank very well and it can do a half decent armour tank. But it gets a bonus to shield tanking, which would lead you to beleive (as i know it did for many people) that the ship was designed with shield tanking in mind. Then people try it, and then get confused when the realise they can armour tank it alot better than they can shield tank it. Therefore it seems that the ship got a useless bonus. Im perfectly willing to accept that i could be being majorly thick and just not using my ship correctly, but everyone else seems to be thinking the same thing, so this leads me to question the minnie ship designs. Along with the upcoming ship HP bonuses, this will effectively reduce the gallente and minmatar ability to tank alot futher (less of a % in armour or shield, as you cant tank both, you take a loss in one) and therefore basically make them less effective, and the caldari and amarr more effective. Which confuses the hell out of me really, i mean. why? |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2005.02.04 13:16:00 - [ 383]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
There is just alot of the view in minmatar circles that we get shafted alot. Which im sure is not deliberate as people think.
I jsut think the ships need looking at, the bonuses on the ships need looking at (cyclone shield bonus?) along with the slot layouts. So that they make sense.
I mean, taking the cyclone as an example. The ship cant sheild tank very well and it can do a half decent armour tank. But it gets a bonus to shield tanking, which would lead you to beleive (as i know it did for many people) that the ship was designed with shield tanking in mind. Then people try it, and then get confused when the realise they can armour tank it alot better than they can shield tank it. Therefore it seems that the ship got a useless bonus.
Yep, that is very random - hopefully it's things like that (along with tempest/typhoon targetting range etc) that'll get sorted as part of Hammer's "other tweaks". Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Along with the upcoming ship HP bonuses, this will effectively reduce the gallente and minmatar ability to tank alot futher (less of a % in armour or shield, as you cant tank both, you take a loss in one) and therefore basically make them less effective, and the caldari and amarr more effective.
Which confuses the hell out of me really, i mean. why?
I have some opinions on this, but I'll state them in reply to your post in the ship HP thread, as it's more relevant there. |
Rexy
DarkStar 1 |
Posted - 2005.02.04 13:18:00 - [ 384]
dont forget the wolf/munin imbalancies ;). or the bellicose for that matter :). |
The Patriarch
Dashavatara
Clownz'R'Us |
Posted - 2005.02.09 14:00:00 - [ 385]
Quote:
The goal is to make projectiles "suck less" without turning them into the next flavor of the month.
CCP Hammer any post patch reviews? You think the Tempest pilots are satisfied with these nudges now? |
The Patriarch
Dashavatara
Clownz'R'Us |
Posted - 2005.02.10 15:54:00 - [ 386]
Why you gave it nudges in the 1st place? We don`t want nudges we want the flavour we deserve, you make us look stupid on the field  A well known PRO minmatar Alliance now flies a 90% Caldari BS fleet. Is the intention ? |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2005.02.10 17:01:00 - [ 387]
Originally by: The Patriarch
Why you gave it nudges in the 1st place? We don`t want nudges we want the flavour we deserve, you make us look stupid on the field A well known PRO minmatar Alliance now flies a 90% Caldari BS fleet. Is the intention ?
Unfortunately, it's probably due to a simple approach of minimising the number of people you annoy with the change. I'm sure you won't dispute that: number of minmatar players < number of non-minmatar players. CCP had two choices. Make one big change, running the risk of overdoing it (as they have done before), which would annoy all the non-minmatar players. Or do a series of gentle nudges, and annoy the minmatar players until they manage to get it all the way right. It's a no-win situation, but simple pragmatism suggests going for the option that will annoy the fewest number of people. Unfortunately, this means the minmatar in this case I'm not saying that's fun, or even nice. Just that I can understand why they might choose to do it this way. |
Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.02.10 17:08:00 - [ 388]
Minmatar players are just grieved as they got nerfed ages ago and are still hurting from it, the majority of us feel that we are lowest on CCP's list of priorities or ship design (take the battlecrusiers as an example).
I can understand their intention to do little tweaks, but the lack of information from CCP on what they consider needs tweaking or whether they think things have been tweaked enough (megapulse for example, alomst everyone agree's that its overpowered but no one from CCP has even hinted that they agree)
Lack of feedback makes people think thats its just going to go on for ages, majority of people only think that peojectiles got a little boost due to the fact that minmatar players kept on and on and on about it for ages and ages. If they didnt keep bringing the issue up, would CCP have even bothered with these small boosts?
Maybe a balance issue we are aware of list like Oveurs 'currently being worked on' list.
Or, simply, a hello? |
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