Posted - 2010.11.26 00:32:00 - [392]

 

Vanity items only.. Dinosaur of the industry eh... What you fail to take into account is that the MMO's that do focus on such things tend to all go to the free-to-play type (either are, will be or are planning to).
Unless you're planning on instituting some free to play way (Plex doesn't count imho, someone paid for that) I don't see why we should be tossing you guys even more money. We go to a MMO because no matter how much money someone tosses at it, they won't necessarily be, feel or look better than us.
Well no longer apparently...
Also most start out with vanity items for cash but it ALWAYS ends up with "boosts" to training time or whatever... All hail the almighty dollar I guess, not even in imaginary spaceships can we escape it.

Posted - 2010.11.26 08:38:00 - [394]

 

Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm playing for free because 26 guys who wanted 300 million ISk more than they wanted 30 days of play time sold me a PLEX.

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Oh, ok. You are playing for free because people sold you something.....

Thank you...

Posted - 2010.11.26 10:31:00 - [396]

 

Edited by: Morar Santee on 26/11/2010 10:32:45

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Edited by: Malcanis on 26/11/2010 10:07:27

Originally by: Morar Santee

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm playing for free because 26 guys who wanted 300 million ISk more than they wanted 30 days of play time sold me a PLEX.

---

Oh, ok. You are playing for free because people sold you something.....

Thank you...

---

Yes, I traded gameplay items for gameplay items. My RL bank account, the one that actually matters, the value that I care about, is untouched.

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So if I do not care about my RL bank account, everything in life is free!? That's frigging awesome! I think I'll go and have a free drink now, instead of discussing with you - it'll kill about as many of my braincells, but hey, it's free and I really think I need it now.

Posted - 2010.11.26 13:51:00 - [398]

 

Originally by: Malcanis

---

I take it you started that process before you even posted.

Do you stand behind people playing Arcade games and say to them "THAT FREE GAME YOU JUST WON, WELL IT'S NOT "FREE" AT ALL IS IT BECAUSE YOU HAD TO PLAY TO WIN IT"?

I'm playing EVE. I'm not paying any money to play it. It's free to play in every sense except your in your bizarro world where not paying for things with money is not free, and paying for things with money is free.

Listen, you're probably well through your 3rd Nyquilada by now, so this is all getting a bit complicated and difficult for you. Get some sleep and everything will seem clearer in the morning.

---

I really think you are, for the most part, capable of coherent thought processes. So I'll make one very last attempt:

Current ISK value is an estimated 370 million / 15 dollars. That holds true even if the only thing with a value in dollars you can purchase with it is a PLEX. (Much in the same way a gift coupon is worth 15 dollars, even if you can only trade it for books on amazon.)
When purchasing a PLEX, you are giving someone the equivalent of 15 dollars in a different currency (which is nothing else than a placeholder value that can be traded for goods). So it isn't free.

Whether or not ISK has any personal value to you has no bearing whatsoever on economical conventions.

Just because you enjoy yourself while obtaining ISK, that does not equal "paying with ISK for PLEX" with "free".

Someone who really enjoys his day job and gets paid 900$ per hour will not care for 15$, the same way you don't care for ISK. He's in the same situation you are. According to your logic, he plays for free in the same manner you are.
1. Enjoyment while obtaining payment currency? Check!
2. Lack of care for payment currency? Check!
Yet you argue he pays while you play for free. Your argumentation is completely horrible.


And to point out the difference between "ISK for PLEX" and "F2P":
While in both scenarios the service costs in dollars are paid by a second party, "ISK for PLEX" requires you to pay that second party in-game currency, while "F2P" doesn't require you to do anything. You are not forced to invest time in any way in order to be able to continue playing.
That's why "F2P" is actually "free", while the other isn't. Communication is based on conventions, and no matter how hard you try, you can't pretend something is "free" when it doesn't meet the criteria for "free".

Posted - 2010.11.26 14:54:00 - [400]

 

"If we don‘t react to the wishes of the market we will simply become the dinosaurs of the industry. And everyone knows what happens to dinosaurs. God makes them disappear. Through MAGIC."

Funny thing is, Eve has become great game by not following dinosaurs of the industry. Maybe you could ask some EA managers to join your ranks if you fill you are not innovative enough.

Posted - 2010.11.26 20:15:00 - [402]

 

Thank you so much CCP... this makes up for removing the learnings :P

<3

Posted - 2010.11.27 00:53:00 - [404]

 

...

6. diversifying and reaction to market developments

Another point that I want to challenge. From a marketing point of view you don't just diversify for the heck of it, you diversify to meet customers' needs. Now the question is, where do you meet your customers' needs ... out of game or in-game? Let's assume someone would love to announce a head-hunt on the Concord Billboard to the new profession of accredited bounty hunters. CCP could recognize that need and satisfy it, but asks for real money -OR- CCP could recognize and offer it as part of the next expansion. The effect: it had to be developed and coded this or that way. But in the first case CCP would exclude everybody from that feature who is not willing to pay for it, in the second case CCP would enhance the game experience for all customers.
I say, yes, widen the options to your subscribers. That's what you did in the past with all the expansions and that is what keep subscribers interested in the future, too. I say, no, you shouldn't take that development out of the game and offer it as a 2nd business model. Keep it in-game and offer it to all of us.
And regarding better reaction to "seismic shifts in the market": when was CCP unable to respond to the so called seismic shifts in the past? And how will it influence to be better positioned? As already mentioned, the development and coding effort remains the same, won't it?


7. dinosaurs

That example was not well chosen. After all those would could offer a dinosaur for sale nowadayscould become a billionaires.



Some additional remarks:

• What happened in the "virtual good sales" debate reminds me on a political campaign. If you want to introduce an unpopular regulation, start with something which is outrageous, wait for the public outcry, give in and reduce it to the level you unofficially aimed for in the beginning. And later gradually expand the borders as resistance will be quite low.


• Why don't you offer the services you are talking about for in-game isk? I always thought it might cause you big headaches to generate enough isk sinks in a player driven market, and here you go and ignore that chance.


• I fear in the long run we would end up with virtual goods that indeed have a direct influence on the gameplay. Even worth, I fear that the influx of such goods will be unlimited. That will definitely destroy the endgame, and will make us old gamers reconsider whether it is worth to continue to play, when every newcomer can achieve the same with the right amount of money in the wallet.


• If CCP wants to introduce special "out of the ordinary" items, why not using in-game events for that? This will be much more rewarding because you have to put in some effort and probably players have to outsmart competitors to get it. Like in the past, people will be proud to own those items, because they know those items are special and not available to everybody.

Surely, CCP has a strategic plan for the next 5+ years. And possibly virtual good sales are part of the foundation. But from my point of view with the information I can access and fears I have, I can only SAY NO TO MICROTRANSACTIONS.

Posted - 2010.11.28 12:25:00 - [406]

 

In reading the Dev Blog, I must say the thought of making Eve more liquid to customization is an excellent idea. However, the purchasing of PLEX in order to do such is quite “greedy” of an idea. To think that CCP would become a dinosaur if they do not incorporate this type of system is ludicrous.

Many games that offer the payable customization of characters are free to play at the base level. This allows the players to spend the money they would for monthly fees to be used to make their characters better though in game boosts, unique items and special custom outfits. Some, like D&D online, offer these mods in a shop for free players, but anyone that subscribes gets an allotment of points each month in order to spend towards these mods.

Turbine, creators of D&D online, saw an increase in revenue almost immediately. However, players like me only played for a couple months before never picking up the game or paying for a month’s worth again.

It is because these types of games focus on the wallets of the players. The rich kids of the world can purchase the mods and have the coolest stuff with little to no game time put in. People with deep pockets will be able to have the best characters in the game. Meanwhile, those left with obligations, like kids or student loans, are forced to sit and be second rate to unfair bias that should not exist in a game.

We play these games to feel a sense of accomplishment, especially in Eve.

Eve is about the bonds we build with our Corps, fleets, and the environment around us. It allows for people to achieve great things without the need of deep pockets outside of the game. Taking a turn that selfishly allows people to mod at a cost of their money can have a negative effect in the number of people who will play.

Customizing a character should be free to a point. I understand if CCP would charge an in game fee (IE isk) for the virtual item or customization, but to offer it at a “real” fiscal cost is definitely a turn off. I would go and play the Korean and Chinese games then.

If eve goes this route, I may end up not playing anymore. It would be a step in the wrong direction. Next will be that the items will give bonus in game and thus lessen the Eve experience as it falls to supreme capitalism.
While doing it for PLEX gives the ability for the player to achieve it in game with isk, it also allows for the wealthy outside of the game an unfair advantage. If everyone received a voucher for a mod or two every month, this may reduce the issue.

In truth, the customizing of the look of a ship or character should be free and considered part of the game fees that are paid monthly. I support furthering the customizing of the appearance of ships or players. This adds colorful depth to the game and encourages individuality.

These are virtual people. If the items should be applied to a ship or player, let it be at the isk level. I understand that with the current setup, PLEX allows virtually the same thing I am complaining about. However, I am afraid of the slow curve to become one of those free online games and the incorporation of items that grant in game bonuses. Soon you will have a rich kid who could buy being the biggest BA on the block. If you want reward people, reward them for their longevity of being committed to playing Eve. Don’t reward them on the basis of making more money.

In my eyes, retention and in game satisfaction would create a more “stable” business plan and way to grow a company. The fact that CCP incorporates updates and patches without charge is an extreme bonus.

I have talked with many friends about Eve. The one thing they worry about is the need to purchase additional expansions and monthly fees as well. They are relieved that CCP does not. Gamers feel that they already pay for the service, so the add-ons should be included. CCP could stand to lose many more potential dollars by incorporating a PLEX based mod fit to the game.

Posted - 2010.11.29 00:12:00 - [408]

 

Edited by: Riius Indigo on 30/11/2010 04:35:22
Edited by: Riius Indigo on 30/11/2010 04:27:01
Are you listening CCP

Please read the posts by Maru Sha and Talith Valindor. They provide complete and compelling arguments against micro-transactions.

CCP, you deserve every penny you earn for Eve. It is unequivocally the best Space/Sandbox MMO in the world. Now you have a responsibility not to ruin it.

Thank you for paying attention to your faithful customers.

Posted - 2010.11.30 13:00:00 - [410]

 

Edited by: Misty Vision on 30/11/2010 13:00:54
If CCP is planning to make more money then I have one word:

IDEAL-PAYMENT > PLEX

We poor dudes in Europe don’t have credit cards, its not in our nature to spent cash we don’t own, but we have debit cards that can pay lots of cash by IDEAL-PAYMENT method.

WHY:
We can no longer buy game codes that we can convert to PLEX in our local game stores. To get a PLEX we need to pay in ISK or own a credit card.

LOL, in other words CCP is failing in Europe big time.
European players can only pay for their subscription but not for additional PLEX.

Posted - 2010.11.30 14:12:00 - [412]

 

I personally feel absolutely horrified by the idea of microtransactions, which are by no means anything else than manifestation of the game developper's greediness. The absence of this was the main reason why i joined EVE universe - i have seen too many MMOs that are actually no simulation of anything, only platforms for kids who willingly spend their rl money to be able to showoff better. No skill required, only money. Is this what you want, CCP? Turning EVE into such a platform where no skills are as important as how much money you have?
NO TO MICROTRANSACTIONS in any form! If the virtual characters are to buy stuff to wear, to furniture their houses, they should do it for the virtual money!

Else all the "sandbox" and "simulation" goes poof, as will certainly my subscription, should the microtransactions be introduced.

Posted - 2010.11.30 21:17:00 - [414]

 

Originally by: Suicide Cid

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Just a thought about remaps.

Certain people, may, possibly have remapped ******ed attributes for a certain group of short term skills as they were armed with the knowledge you could remap for a few iskies in the near future.

Having read such a long sentence, do you think it would be fair to give everyone a free remap given that we made a decision based on the information we were officially presented with at the time?

(yes I am one of the ******ed )

---

It was never announced. It was on the test server for a reason. If people gambled, they lost.

Posted - 2010.12.01 11:41:00 - [416]

 

Well i canceled my automatic payments and it will not be this way again until the idea of micro transactions has been trashed, i could have posted more but hey if they want to go this way i will play a different game.

This is what i attached in my cancellation reason box.

After reading the mention of micro transactions on the dev blog I have decided to cancel my account, this game is great and will continue to be so until Incarna is released. Over the last few years i have ranted and raved how awesome it will be to station walk, but haven't fretted to much about it being slow to release because other expansions have been coming out with new content that actually adds to the game. Incarna appears to only have station walking and no other actual game play additions, so a lost expansion. This weeks patch was great, and I do approve of smaller and more frequent updates that add game content, but having an expansion that is adding nothing of relevance, the real game is in space not the stations, and then tacking micro transactions on top of stating that it cant survive other wise is a load of crap. The plex system as it stands has added a surplus of real money to the company being that every account has been payed for with real money or plex it leads back to real money some where, and in the end CCP ends up with the real money not gold farmers, it was ingenuous and I have sold a plex when i needed quick isk as well as bought them to play. But segmenting your player base by who is willing to pay more through micro transactions is not what i want to see and therefore i am canceling my subscription. I may resub monthly but as soon as any type of micro transaction is added to the game i will cancel my account and not return until it is removed from the game, im just glad i didn't activate my alt today.

Good luck with your future game endeavors and hopefully you will not turn into another money hungry company that turns their back from their player base in an effort just to make a few extra dollars.

Regretfully,

Largo Usagi

Posted - 2010.12.02 09:11:00 - [418]

 

PLEX was an ingenuous way to counter isk farmers and allow CCP to reap the benefit, i know plenty of players who would buy isk from farmers for like 10$ and then trade that isk for a 1 month time card pre PLEX, it was already occurring so CCP made a way to capitalize on a problem they where having, and ensure a safe and secure way for players to do something that they wanted.

Every one NEEDS subscription time to play the game, PLEX is an option available to every one, and some one somewhere is paying for that month. Its something that every one HAS otherwise they aren't in the game, the end expenditure is equal for every one.

Micro transactions limit themselves to players who are willing to spend extra to play the game, and if said extra items are non trade able and indestructible it really changed what EVE has allays done, making a player think about making an investment in an item because he or she may loose that item. It also takes away from the market where nearly everything in the game is created by the players, with the exception of skill books and a few other select items that i don't need to list.

Id rather see new industrial skills for these items and another new market that is player ran in the game, because as it stands if they are adding micro transactions for your station only avatar it adds nothing to the REAL game, and if they add things that need to be done in the stations where players may spend a legitimate amount of time then those who are willing to pay more will stand out tremendously, even if said items are only vanity items. I wouldn't be so far against micro transactions if there was an alternative for players to obtain the EXACT same item in game with isk, just like any other item, and all items are destroyable, and trade-able.

But this doesn't appear to appear to be the way things are going. Another note on incarna, i don't like the sense of security stations will be giving players. I enjoy knowing that even in empire i can get suicide ganked. Hopefully they will have something like that in stations where you can lure people away from safety and shank them in a corridor some where. I don't want to see a bright happy oasis in eve, in every system almost.

The above statement applies to the idea that vanity items are destructible and lootable. To bring the question oh hey this player is wearing a 50m Isk suit, i want it, lure away and kill and loot, like any other aspect of the current game. Also resulting in the killed player needing a new clone.

Now all of my hopes listed above are crushed by making these items obtainable only by micro transactions. Now i know that my hopes for what incarna would bring probably wont happen exactly or if at all but until reading about this last week, i had full faith that when incarna was released it would be awesome, be everything i could have imagined and better.

So yes if they start making content restricted to players who are willing to shell out more money for it, i wont participate. I am going to make the best out of what time i have until the release.

tl;dr
I PLEX is fine, it destroyed the isk farmers profits and gave them to CCP that **** would happen regardless.
Micro transactions for items that will be permanent for a player is full of fail and destroys part of the eve environment by adding something that you can never loose adding a true security to the game, high sec is a false sense of security indestructible and non transferable items is something that represents no loss and is something that shouldn't exist in this game where every choice is thought about due to what can be lost.

I have made my plea i will back it and elaborate more if wanted

Posted - 2010.12.03 00:03:00 - [420]

 

Edited by: Joss56 on 03/12/2010 00:05:55
@Largo

I now understand much better your point of vue and agree with most of your meanings until plex, wich i keep thinking it's not the best way to counter isk sellers, but it's ok we dont have to agree at everything.

Now, guys like you that take the time to explain clearly theyre point of vew than even some noob not english native like me can understand, dont realy run on these forums neither in game.

Consider your position, and for the moment lots of newbs need some vet's like you to learn a lot of thing in this game, and for you mabe another challenge.

Most part of the guys/players i cross arround dodixie jita or rens are from far, the lowest and the worst kind of player that i ever found even in wow (not all of course), so i'm waiting to find some real good player around here.

Not those kind that take they're "cane" and two boy-friends rr against single target with no defense as you can see tons of it at dodixie or those second class pirates lurking in high sec. The real players, those who have strategies who froms fleets who know what it means logistic and strategic theorycraft, stategic systems and so on. Those ones for me are ghosts.